Bard doesn't need Buffs.

Roodrak·9/22/2015, 8:27:21 PM·43 votes·3,114 views

I see a lot of threads talking about how Bard 's Shrines are not strong late game. I'm here to argue that. (TLDR at bottom)

There are three things that are being suggested about Bard's W. The first one is simply make it stronger (whether it be Base or Scaling Amounts). The second (which I felt many people liked) is make his W scale off of Chimes. The third (which I saw earlier today) was punish players for destroying shrines. I disagree with these because simply, Bard does not need a buff. I love the champion and I think he is one of the most fun supports, if he gets buffed he will simply be nerfed to a state that is worse than now (not to imply it is bad now).

Argument 1: Buff Caretaker's Shrine Reasoning for: His W falls off late game in terms of health and speed buff. Waiting for his W to charge fully late game is not worth it. The cooldown is too long for it to be viable/spammable.

Counter Argument: Caretaker's Shrine in the late game has weaknesses, this is undeniable and I understand. However, it is NOT a worthless heal, it is NOT a worthless speed buff, and it is NOT a worthless late game ability. The heal at max level provides 150 Base+20% AP, the speed buff is 50% of the total movement speed decayed over 1.5 seconds. In order to compare this we will look at two other champs that provide heals and movement speed to compare; Nami and Sona (I know her W and E are separate, but they are often used at the same time). Nami provides a 185+30% AP Heal, that bounces, whilst also apply a movement speed buff of 60+20% of AP. Sona provides 110+20% AP+%HP Missing+ A Temporary shield (155+20% at lvl 18), her movement speed buff provides 20%+3.5% Per 100AP at lvl 18. To compare, Bard's shrine is weaker compared to these two supports. Nami is designed to be an aggressive healer (as due to the bounce mechanic), and Sona to be a defensive healer (as due to the shield and %Missing HP mechanic) while Sona may not be played defensively her heal is not an offensive spell. So, where does this place Bard? Many would argue whether he is Aggresive/Defensive but in honesty his W fills a utility role more than Nami/Sona's abilities. His W falls off late game for the same reason Talisman/Locket do, utility falls off. This shouldn't be changed because he shouldn't be able to compete with a Nami or Sona, they SHOULD beat him in terms of heals when late game arrives.

As to address the two other complaint of Shrines... To wait for his W to charge is the same as placing wards, it exemplifies you and your teams desire to fight there. You need setup and you will do more in that fight if you simply predicted where it will be. The shrine should be a band-aid for your bruise or tape for your shoes, not a doctor waiting for you or a racecar level speed buff. The weakness and the strength is the waiting, you are rewarded for using the shrines (that have been pre-placed) correctly, and you are punished by only having 1 instant shrine if ganked. They shouldn't be spammable either because you shouldn't be able to be a medic in a fight, you should use your three other abilities too account for your lack of shrines.

Argument 2: Caretaker's Shrine should scale via Chimes NOT via AP.

Counter Argument: I really like this idea. If riot could create some type of system that would be heavily observed on release then improved on it could be good. This idea brings a lot of good to Bard's play-style, it promotes roaming (Bard's big thing), and it promotes healing. Though the issue is similar to first argument's issue, it could make Bard's W too strong. This issue would be done by having a flat scaling that doesn't change over time (EX: After the 50th Chime all chimes after now increase healing by 0.5 instead of 1). Bard shouldn't be able to be in full utility items and then have his heal be on par with a Nami/Sona solely because he walked around. He already provided bonuses for his team (ganks, map presence) by gathering Chimes, he shouldn't be able to overcome the enemy's support on top of this. He needs to make a trade, Gank/Help other lanes OR Stay/Help Your ADC/Stop their Bot Lane.

Argument 3: Punish Enemy Players for Destroying Shrines.

Counter Argument: The idea here is to stop players from just destroying Bard's hard pre-planned work. The suggested idea/penalty was provide vision/slow the enemy. I will talk about the slow first, then the vision, and then the overall effects of creating any form of penalty. To make Bard's W be a slow would give Bard a choice, heal or slow. And the answer should always be heal, the peel/chase that is given from the W is too much too ignore. Adding this slow would be allowing Bard players to slow with Meeps, and Q, effectively forcing the enemy team to buy Boots of Swiftness if they wanna move. In terms of Vision, it's the same reason that Skarner Spires don't give vision. It's not needed. If it is taken, you can see even if it's in fog of war, you know someone is there. This also would promote using the Shrine as a Ward, and this already exists through Teemo, Nidalee, and Caitlyn, this would lead to players not using it to heal. And overall this would only mean that Bard players would actually think about W'ing an Enemy rather than an Ally, when it would be more beneficial 9/10 times for the ally to be healed and given a speed buff.

Yeah I'm sorry if it's long read but I really like stretching things out. My only regret is not replacing the Champion names with icons.

TL;DR- Bard's W shouldn't be buffed on the account of it being counter-intuitive to Bard's overall playstyle.

Thanks for reading all this.

57 Comments

DarthSpectrum9/22/2015, 9:41:22 PM13 votes

Utility doesn't fall off. Look at Lulu or Morgana for example. These champions are played in solo lanes purely because of how strong their CC and buffs are. A good Dark Binding or Wild Growth can determine a team fight late game. Likewise, a good Blitzcrank grab can end a team fight before it happens.

If utility weren't so effective, then professional players wouldn't pick supports, top laners, and junglers such as Nautilus or Shen so often and move onto more aggressive champions.

That said, it is true that Bard is in a good spot right now because of how much utility he provides. Tempered Fate can determine a team fight just as much as any other ultimate, and cosmic binding is fairly reliable in teamfights when people are clumped together. However, Caretaker's shrine is still pathetically weak. Nami and Sona not only have much stronger healing, their healing abilities are also AOE.

Bard heals one person only. The effects of caretaker's shrine are simply lackluster compared to Nami's AOE Heal that also deals damage, or Sona's AOE missing% health heal that also gives a shield of a stronger value.

Perhaps Bard doesn't need the power increase as a whole, but it isn't unreasonable to see why people want to buff the Shrine. It is literally not even worth the mana cost late game. At the very least lower the charge time of the Shrine as Bard ranks it up. 10 seconds for a 230 heal? Some champions LF/Regenerate/Spell vamp literally 5 times that amount in 10 seconds.

(Also, item 3190 is still pretty strong late game. It is probably one of the best support items in game since it provides everyone with MR and its active shield scales off maximum health.)

ScriptBrand9/22/2015, 8:45:49 PM9 votes

bard is actually very good. if you watch aphro play him it's like "WTF why is this champion in the game". he's just a very high skill cap

Remlap12239/23/2015, 1:45:50 AM6 votes

Bard is shit. He's literally one of the weakest champions in the game's history and deserves a ton of buffs before he's ever going to be even underpowered, much less not a joke champion.


** Sent from Internet Explorer: 3/13/2015**

alfavhunter9/22/2015, 8:59:09 PM2 votes

Personally I feel the heal shouldn't be stronger, the utility could use a late game boost though

My idea for it was this

Chimes now increase the duration of the speed boost from shrines by .1 second per 10 chimes

This means that the speed boost decay is drawn out over a greater period of time giving more effectiveness to it

This wouldn't be op either because of the number of chimes needed to make a difference

At 100 chimes it changes the 50% decay over 1.5 seconds to 50% decay over 2.5 seconds

And getting 100 chimes is a challenge for some games due to duration of the game, and moments where you can actually go collect the chimes

On top of this it buffs the utility of the spell not the heal, making it so shrines early healing is still great, but it will fall off, and instead will bring more utility through the MS bonus

This also makes it useful for both ap support and tank bard support, and for those outliers out there it is still useful for ad, bruiser, or wakamole bard. Whatever your build it garenteed shrines will get a form of late game scaling, without making it a super heal or anything like that

Azteryz9/22/2015, 11:30:00 PM2 votes

in my opinion bards w is meant to be different than a soraka heal or a sona heal/speed buff

where those are instant and not as powerful

bards is more or less supposed to be a med pack (think team fortress) where it should reward you for using it as a health pack for a team to consume later and not as an instant casted ability because if it did become one then it wouldnt make bard the most interesting and unique champion in this game

(i am intrigued by the chimes scaling with his w because it would promote more unique tactics like roaming and better decision making as in when to roam and not BUT this is a very icy topic because it would potentially overload his passive of getting these chimes because it would grant him so many in game buffs that would make the player say "the chimes are important i need to completly focus on them. Also fine tuning makes this an even harder subject to balance)

Healz Please9/23/2015, 2:21:37 AM2 votes

But... Isn't Bard pretty terrible? He's seems like a worthless pile of shit to me, but I may be wrong.

Hay5eed9/23/2015, 12:45:34 AM2 votes

I think bard is good, but I think that he does need buffs. You mention that Bards heal is not as great as Nami or Sona's but that he has so much utility to his kit that it makes up for it but it doesn't considering that half the game he is roaming the map. Bard's shrine's are so weak that half the time I hesitate to roam in case I have to run back to lane to help my ADC. Sona and Nami don't have to worry about these things so they can just sit on top of their ADC and heal them for as long as their mana lasts. Also, Sona and even Nami to an extent get free poke, Nami with her heal and Sona with her Q cause all she has to do is be in the vicinity for it to target the enemy. Bard has to work hard for any poke he can get which is BS cause he doesn't get any damage and his Q is a skillshot slow with a maybe stun that works more like Lux's double snare but it's short range and hella slow and telegraphed.

Bard is weak. Granted I love him but frankly you only have two types of supps in game. 1.) Enough damage in their kit that they can burst the enemy down and let their adc get the kill. 2.) Tanky with a ton of CC so they can just freaking dive the enemy and put them in CC prison and their ADC can get the kill.

What's Bard? He has a skill shot slow/stun and his auto's slow....that's it. What are we going to do? Buff his E? how? Buff his ult? How? His W and his Q are the only things we can buff and if you buff his Q then he would become too good in lane to be a roamer. If you make his shrines have a heal at least comparable to Sona's or Nami's at full charge then it would encourage roaming. I think that this is a good thing.

Krigjer9/22/2015, 10:58:18 PM2 votes

I partially agree with you. Bard is in a fantastic state after his buffs, and I don't think he needs anything else (major).

It's more of an annoyance that I can place shrines behind my turret and watch a dominating enemy walk right up to them with nothing threatening them. I would like a stun or a slow or SOMETHING to turn it into a strategic move to destroy shrines. 'Is it worth a second of CC to deny the enemy health?'

Meep Man9/23/2015, 12:28:50 AM2 votes

He doesn't need buffs, but I wish his Meeps felt better.

Space Bum9/23/2015, 2:19:28 PM1 votes

Great job. I currently have 75k mastery with Bard and have no complaints with any parts of his kit. Bard is probably one of the least straight forward champions. I think people want to turn him into a analog healer because they don't know how to properly utilize his kit.

The question people need to ask themselves is if they really want to face a champion who can make Bard plays but can also heal like Soraka Nami or Sona.....

Tengrichan9/23/2015, 2:38:46 PM1 votes

I think he needs some help.I feel the bind range is rather small on his Q considering that's his only hard CC on a low cd.It's rather hard to land it against good opponents.There were several instances playing him where his Q would have hit with a little more range on the binding.

Some idea i am throwing out: When Cosmic binding hits a champion and a wall it creates a special shrine next to the wall where it hit.This shrine could give a non decaying ms or something. The projectile speed could be increased a bit too.Other annoying thing is it doesn't grant vision of the hit enemy.

His W indeed needs something more.His W should heal Bard himself for more.Maybe missing %hp,max %hp or just double amount. He does need this to make his roaming work.

A nice QoL change would be to detect better whether i want to use the tunnel when i click on it the terrain.As there are times where i click on the terrain where the tunnel is placed and the character tries to go around instead using the the tunnel.

CHOPSTICKUHH9/23/2015, 3:13:09 PM1 votes

How about when bard maxes his W: caretakers shrine. He lays shrines that are already fully charged?

Regulus Lyon9/23/2015, 8:47:04 PM1 votes

Throwing this out there - The scaling if used with Chimes could very much be like Thresh's soul collecting where the ratio goes down the more you collect. So, while it would still get stronger, you don't have to worry about it becoming too strong unless they collect a huge amount of chimes. If a game goes on that long, I don't think it's any issue for a champion with things like chime collecting or stacking abilities/passives to obtain that much power.

Truly Prideful9/24/2015, 12:42:20 AM1 votes

First off, I agree with you on most points. I play a lot of Bard and I definitely don't really feel he needs a buff. If they were doing anything to his W, scaling with chimes would be my first choice for sure. The other I've considered to be interesting is giving his W a charge system. It would fit in with his roaming well, allowing him to make his short stop, drop 3 shrines, then get back to work on the map. Even if you don't place them, you could aid in an ADC kiting with 3 quick bursts or help with an initiation if a magical journey isn't viable.

Small Tiddies9/22/2015, 8:55:36 PM1 votes

W change. Heals normal, but: Heals for +10/15/20% max health additionally. Simple change to make it heal more. Or heals +2 for every 3 missing Health. Bard

Blade of Justic9/23/2015, 1:45:03 AM1 votes

I only have 1 question:

Bot Support or Jungle?

Carnage9/23/2015, 5:07:39 AM1 votes

Bard

iluvalar9/23/2015, 5:21:19 AM1 votes

I still believe the shrine need to heal more at maximum but take even more time to charge. It would be a small buff to bard, but would require more preparation and it would fit his kit pretty well... He still need a tiny buff, and the heal so far feel pretty week so...

Borbland9/23/2015, 7:49:04 AM1 votes

That's funny, we wrote a thread about those Bard shrines at the same time:

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/BAA158e9-what-is-happening-with-all-the-bards-shrines-threads-latetly

Mine havent got that much attention, don't know why, while it was writen earlier..... I dont mind you taking something off my thread but pls mention it, you have the same arguments as I have. Profiting from thread forgotten by the Boards isnt really nice :/

Anyway, you told it well, Bard doesnt need any buffs on his W, it's similar to Sona's and Nami's heals in terms of healing and mana cost and stays relevant all game, but mostly for the MS boost.

ulie love9/23/2015, 12:16:10 PM1 votes

I think bard's W is weak at all points of the game, the point is to leave shrines while you leave to collect chimes. I think what could be interesting is if bards w was redesigned so that he could leave 5 but only 2 within a certain range of one another and have it so the longer they stay up the more heal they do upto a certain cap. (sort of how it is right now but instead of 2 tier it heals for more the longer it stays up and stops at say 20% hp)

This would allow you to fill the roaming support role more and help multiple lanes at once.

They get destroyed in a moment when enemy steps on it so its not even overpowered

ComannderShepard9/23/2015, 12:33:44 PM1 votes

Hmm interesting post. Would you be apposed to the idea of the duration it takes for the shrine to charge be reduced with each rank of the ability? 10 Seconds to charge per shrine including the cooldown of the ability can be a lot if you want to prep for a fight because it can take close to a minute. Then if the fight doesn't even happen in that area you prepped for nothing. Maybe not anything crazy like 5 seconds but 7 or 6 seconds to charge at rank 5 of his W seems like it would be alright

TaoistMaster9/23/2015, 2:08:15 PM1 votes

{quoted}

Argument 3: Punish Enemy Players for Destroying Shrines.

Put the shrines by a wall so you can stun whoever steps on it.

Use this combo with a vayne in lane and hilarity will ensue.