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I just realized. A mage gameplay update is the perfect time for spellvamp ratios.

Holy Malevolence·3/19/2016, 3:21:01 PM·89 votes·4,950 views

It's the most obvious thing that's years overdue.

Make it so that, much like with AP, abilities get different returns from spellvamp. So that if you've got someone like Vladimir, who seems to be getting an update, who's a little or a lot overpowered with spellvamp, you can directly nerf the problem. Instead of utterly destroying the champion in other, non-problematic areas like destroying their damage output. Or, far more destructive, knocking out any potential for viability in spellvamp items in general.

As it stands? Single target abilities get 100% of your spellvamp. AOE ones get 33%. If every single target ability had a 1.0 AP ratio and every AOE one had a .33 one, the game would literally be incapable of balance. So why are you leaving spellvamp in such a nonsensical state?

You've already got some ability to control how much a champion gets from the spellvamp return. I highly doubt it'd be difficult to get it to a point where every ability has its own unique ratio. It literally can't cause problems on its own, because if you implement individual ratios, you can set them initially to what they basically are already. Whereafter you could actually do something with spellvamp and, y'know, balance it, instead of giving up and declaring it a lost cause.

There's no real downside to implementing spellvamp ratios. At worst you get a tool to far more easily balance out spellvamp when it gets out of hand. At best you make a stat healthy and viable for the whole cast to enjoy. And it's the perfect time. The mage update. What could be a more perfect time to implement spellvamp ratios?

Barring between seasons, I guess.

Like, is there a single actual reason not to?

49 Comments

Mhihnj3/19/2016, 5:26:08 PM52 votes

A mage gameplay update is the perfect time for an Azir bug

CrimsonCobra33/19/2016, 5:48:07 PM12 votes

Alright, I'm not sure where other people are getting confused, but I can try to help. Holy Malevolence, if this post doesn't help, please just ask me to remove it, and I will delete it.

Basically he's saying that a single stat can be added to all abilities that will by default be what it is already in the itemization: 100% or 33% return from spellvamp. This will then allow Riot to adjust the specific stats of those 5 or so champions that abuse it individually, and allow for more specific tuning on any other champions in the future. Now, it is true that equating spellvamp to AP ratios is a bad analogy, but there is a reason it was used, and I think I might be able to explain this. Lifesteal only applies to auto-attacks, which are most AD champions' primary damage output. Mages' primary output comes from their AP ratios. The thing is, AD doesn't have different auto-attack ratios depending on the champion, all AD is given equally to the champions that build it, and therefore, lifesteal ratios can be balanced based on items. However, since mages have different AP scalings, spellvamp is a little harder. It can't really be balanced purely on items, because each champion receives a different benefit from it. That is why Holy Malevolence is suggesting that the fix be applied on the champions' end instead of the items.

Whether or not this should be done is not something I will assert. I think it would be cool, but I am not sure how much it would help. It could even allow for mages to be given better spellvamp ratios down the line, especially on AoEs etc. But I can't really say if the benefit would be worth the effort, that isn't my call.

I literally just restated everything Holy Malevolence already said, in my own words. But it looks like it could use some restating. Confusion did seem a bit rampant.

~CrimsonCobra3

It Hertz When IP3/19/2016, 4:26:47 PM10 votes

For the same reason that ADCs don't get varying base modifiers of lifesteal stats. Comparing AP ratios and spellvamp makes no sense, as they correspond to two different things: sustain vs damage output. Calling spellvamp nonsensical itself lacks sense, because there is no issue with spellvamp. The issue is with those few champions whose kits synergize with spellvamp on a whole different level from everyone else. If you take the entire mage lineup and make each work a WotA into their build, most would not only NOT have a powerspike, but might in fact be hindered.

It's not a spellvamp problem. Spellvamp is fine. It's a Vladimir / Cassiopeia /whoever I'm not thinking of problem. And crapping on spellvamp mechanics for literally everyone just because a few champions abuse it is ridiculously bad balancing.

IGotScuttleCrabs3/19/2016, 4:17:46 PM7 votes

The problem is they'd have to go through EVERY ability. That's take some massive time if they wanted to make them fair and "balanced".

Granted once it was done it'd be a lot easier and only need upkeep for buffs/nerfs and new champs.

Speedphoenix3/19/2016, 5:04:23 PM4 votes

and please buff the spellvamp runes (3.33% would be good instead of 2)

Mandang03/20/2016, 8:14:26 AM4 votes

"There's no real downside to implementing spellvamp ratios"

Except of course that it's a ridiculously massive undertaking that will probably turn the game's balance on its head. When X champion's winrate spikes after, how do you know whether to nerf their damage ratio, their vamp ratio, either base, or the spell vamp itemization? And, given Riot's recent track record on double nerfing (itemization + kit), you can all but guarantee the change will get some champs nerfed into oblivion.

I seriously challenge the opinion that slapping a new ratio on every damaging spell is going to "far more easily balance out spellvamp when it gets out of hand". Under such a system, the stat is going to actually perform less consistently, based on how far ahead you are. The current implementation, for all its faults, at least largely scales from the base damage amount of the spell, which remains more predictable both throughout the course of a game and from game to game (whether the purchaser gets behind or stupidly fed).

kDrakari3/20/2016, 5:39:39 AM2 votes

Personally, I think this would be WAY TOO COMPLICATED, not to mention a ton of work to hook this up to a gigantic majority of abilities in the game, and a really weird, unnecessary, and nitpicky tool considering how few champions actually get spell vamp. This might be reasonable as just part of a complete overhaul of spell vamp including new items, having spell vamp added to old items, and having the numbers of existing spell vamp items entirely redone.

Alternatively, spell vamp could be removed from the game easily, with only some compensation given to Vladimir (Who I think is up for a minor rework anyway) and some changes to Akali's passive (which would give her more freedom in build paths and possibly make her assassin playstyle more viable compared to the metagolem tank build).

Not that I'm an expert, but I really feel like adding "heals for 0 (+0) % of damage done" to every single ability description in the game would hinder understanding to a more meaningful degree than having about 600 tiny levers to adjust spell vamp would make it an interesting stat.

Evewynn3/19/2016, 10:14:09 PM2 votes

I just feel like this adds unneeded complexity in a place where only two items give this specific stat. Sure there are runes and masteries, but these come up little enough to where not much would feel different after the change.

Jeddy0173/19/2016, 8:33:07 PM2 votes

{quoted}

We'll be looking to adjust CDR, Mana and MP5 on AP items as our primary focus, with some potential side changes to things like the Revolver/WotA/Gunblade line. Overall scope of item changes will almost certainly be noticeably smaller than the preseason so this will be much more about adjustments to existing items than adding new ones.

Well,it pretty heavily implied by Meddler here that they're going to work spell vamp to some degree.It could be something else,but item 3145 item 3152 & item 3146 all have spell vamp in common.I mean why would they work on the whole Revolver line if they're not going to work on the one thing they have in common?It has to be the spell vamp.

GigaPube3/20/2016, 3:40:25 PM1 votes

yeah sure. lets add this to the list of "random largely-time-consuming stuff riot can do to make league better"

now, back to focusing on the REAL issues, plz rito

ModKnightsKemplar3/21/2016, 6:20:33 AM1 votes

I mean, it's always two things. A) Clarity and B) workload. If they had people to do it and had a good idea on how to implement it, they would.

delonix3/19/2016, 6:28:35 PM1 votes

They might not want to deal with spellvamp during the immobile mage update because spellvamp is good on a bunch of other champions. There are mobile mages like Ahri, Kassadin, and LeBlanc plus other champions with a bunch of damage from abilities like Maokai and Zac that can use spellvamp if it is stronger/more available.

I think spellvamp is probably somewhere on Riot's list of things to deal with, but I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see any changes with it until preseason 7.

Valhalla Rising3/19/2016, 7:10:49 PM1 votes

All I know is item 3812 gives 15% lifesetal in addition to 15% physical spellvamp.

item 3152 Just gives 15% spellvamp.

Saianna3/19/2016, 7:37:08 PM1 votes

If Mage update won't solve main issure of good itemisation for mages (or at least on par with ADs), then fuck it, I'm out.

Just Shimakaze3/19/2016, 8:55:03 PM1 votes

The reason AOE spellvamp is 33% percent so you don't heal all of the damage you deal in a 5 man nunu ult or a spell like that.

arcinex3/19/2016, 10:33:11 PM1 votes

A Rioter stated that they intend on reworking Spellvamp along with the Ryze rework

EfficientDynamo3/19/2016, 11:12:15 PM1 votes

That seems overly complicated and would increase the game knowledge requirement. It would be easier to alter the abilities of individual champions that abuse the stat.

Alternatively, make spellvamp scale off of AP rather than damage dealt? Not sure it would work, but another way of treating the stat.

OyddAWqJ5r3/20/2016, 3:52:46 AM1 votes

This is a great suggestion. If either this or the idea I posted for a cap is implemented I'm sure spell vamp could make a return. Perhaps even both? Who knows?

Shameless self-link: Spell Vamp Cap

Bobloser35553/20/2016, 8:19:36 AM1 votes

It's not necessary for spellvamp to be viable on all mages, some can benefit more from it some less just like with items.