Botlane support diversity

Scarthcaroth·Oct 29, 2015·5 votes·2,322 views

I am support main(I realize that might make me biased in certain ways) and I'd like to have the opinions of some Rioters (Meddler maybe?) and the rest of the community on some ideas that I have. I don't claim to fully understand how the precarious balance of this game works. I simply don't have the insight into all the data for it. I don't claim that, what i propose in this post, is going to be a solution to a problem that might just exist in my biased mind.

That being said I want to talk about something that I feel is a problem in the current balancing of the support role. When we look at the current situation at worlds we can see a broad range of midlane mages and assassins being played to varying success. Other roles like toplane and jungle have, opposed to midlane, less diversity. But one of the roles that has the potential to have the most diversity - support - has actually the least. Why do I think that? Well allow me to explain that. I like to divide the support role into three archetypes:

Utility-focused, defensive supports (Janna, Nami, Bard, Soraka etc.)
Damage-focused, offensive supports (Karma, Sona, Lux (don't judge), Brand, Kennen etc.)
Sustain-focused, defensive/offensive supports (Leona, Thresh, Tahm Kench, Alistar, Shen, Blitzcrank etc.)

Each class has their own right to exist and their own strengths and weaknesses.

Utility supports protect their carries, they shield them, they heal them, they keep enemies away so that the carries can do their job.
Mage supports assist their carries with damage and minor utility like CC spells or shields.
Tank supports soak up damage for their carries, they engage into fights or help their carries to get out of fights.

But out of the three archetypes I described here only the tank supports shine in most of the games. Tank supports are some of the most proliferate of these archetypes not just in pro-play (where we can see Alistar, Kench, Thresh, Braum dominating the support picks) but these trends also, unsurprisingly, trickle down to all other types of queues. So why is it that utility and mage supports are favored so little over tank supports? Is it because the champions are weak? No. Otherwise mage supports and utility supports would lose most of the games. Is it because playing tank is the superior playstyle? Perhaps, perhaps not. But what I think is that many of the problems with the botlane balance come from the lack of items for mage supports and utility supports. What items can a Karma or Soraka buy? Ardent Censer, Zeke's Herald, Locket of the Iron Solari,Banner of Command, Twin Shadows. Locket does not quite favor these types of support. Banner is a situational item while certainly good in the stat it gives it's not always an option to buy and Twin Shadows well that item has been neglected at all points anyway.

What I think would help these two classes are items that provide decent amounts of AP without overrunning a support's budget. What is the problem with having cheap AP items that mage and utility support would like? The problem: They would have to be super cost efficient and midlane mages could abuse those items to get more power with less gold.

The goal of having items like I describe them below is that they are designed in a way that only supports can use them. However all of these proposed "solutions" have their own share of problems. As has providing mage and utlity supports with more AP in the support slot than they'd usually have.

Ideas:

> -Scaling AP item based on total AP value of the character- > > The item has X AP and scales with Y AP per champion level. But this scaling only > applies if the champion has not exceeded Z total AP value. (100-250 AP for mage supports)

> -AP item that is bound to having a tier 3 GP5 / a certain level- > > This item has X AP and can only be bought when the champion has either reached a certain > level (Lvl 9 for example) or when the champion owns a tier 3 GP5 item.

> -AP item that scales with special champions base AP- > > This item has X% base AP scaling. (Note: This would only fit if mage supports actually had > base AP values. In this case it would work like an AP Titanic Hyrda.)

> -AP item that imitates the spellblade passive- > > This item would not give supports AP but rather flat additional damage on abilities. > It could have additional conditions to make sure it does not get abused by midlane mages > with low AP scalings but high base damage values.

29 Comments

Pika310Oct 29, 20154 votes

You list Sona as a "damage" support, yet she has the 2nd-lowest damage output of the entire support class after Braum.

On the other hand, she has next to no utility, so she doesn't fit in that category either and she sure as hell can't be a tank with the 2nd-lowest HP and armor just above Zyra. I guess the point being she just doesn't exist anymore...

delonixOct 29, 20152 votes

Sona might not do a ton of damage over the course of the game, but her early game poke is really solid. Sometimes looking at things like the average overall damage output doesn't tell the whole story. Sona's small heal and Q+auto combo allows her to be an early-game poke support in a meta where poke supports are very weak.

Plus, 1.5 second big aoe stun doesn't really seem like no utility to me.

BlackquillOct 29, 20151 votes

Same - well not exactly the same but you get the idea - with Karma. Karma has the highest level 1 damage of all supports but as the game goes on her damage falls off and her utility (AoE shield + speed boost) shines.

delonixOct 29, 20151 votes

Yeah, Sona and Karma both start out very much as poke champs and then turn into utility champs later, which complicates the grouping in the original post, and also other common support groupings, like poke/sustain/all-in.

BlackquillOct 29, 20151 votes

I think we are derailing here. This post is not so much about which champion fits into which category but rather that the range of utility focused AP items is underwhelming. You have Zeke's and Ardent and...nothing more. Twin Shadows is imho not even worth mentioning.

delonixOct 30, 20151 votes

Yeah, this series of comments is not really about the original post. I think Piku310 would probably say that even if the number of utility AP items was increased, Sona would still be the weakest support.

I'm not convinced that AP supports need more items. I think the meta doesn't favor them and that Relic Shield made tanky, all-in supports also decent sustain supports. I also think that there are good reasons why tank items have more utility than mage items. The suggestions in the original post all seem a little forced. I'm confident that eventually the meta will change and mage supports will be back in the spotlight, building stuff like Zeke's and also stuff like Zhonya's or RoA.

HentRexOct 30, 20152 votes

This is the reason I think the support starter items need to be adjusted. Targon's should lose the heal, and maybe give a bonus 25% gold to ally instead. It makes the "safe" tank safer as it is right now. The only thing utility supports had on them was the ability to poke them out of lane. This needs to be brought back.

BlackquillOct 30, 20151 votes

Unfortunately - unless Riot reworks the champions to be either massive in early damage or in utility - mages and utility supports (technically also mages) won't see the light anymore despite sophisticated tries from players like nRated, LemonNation and Adrian. Moreso when preseason in it's current form (10/30/2015) hits live servers.

Zhonyas for example - a decent item for mages like Morgana or even for other mages to "reset" a fight, survive Zed or others - got nerfed to the point that i believe not even midlane mages see much sense in buying it (TL;DR: 100 AP => 85 AP / 50 Armor => 45 Armor / 3000 Gold => 3200 Gold). Other than that mages suffer from one problem: All these items are balanced around solo lane income. Sadly we supports have to live from welfare based on our own ADC's last hitting strength or our ability to trade in lane. This is not a problem for tanks because defensive items are cheaper by nature but offensive items are expensive. This is not a problem for the balance of midlane mages but supports would need a way to get medium amounts of AP (we are not the carry after all) for very little gold. This is why OP has brought up ideas how such items could be designed in a way that does not let midlaners abuse this relatively cheap power.

-AP item that is bound to having a tier 3 GP5 / a certain level- This item has X AP and can only be bought when the champion has either reached a certain > level (Lvl 9 for example) or when the champion owns a tier 3 GP5 item.

-Scaling AP item based on total AP value of the character- The item has X AP and scales with Y AP per champion level. But this scaling only applies if the champion has not exceeded Z total AP value. (100-250 AP for mage supports)

These two are my favorites because they would allow Riot to make them cheap because ~~only~~ supports can use them. And since AP values for every champion and every role are relatively easy to predict it would not overthrow the balance we currently have...the only thing that would change is that tank supports cannot just do what they want but they would have to use windows of time to find the right engage instead of "Oh, i am a Leona against a Bard/Sona/Soraka/Nami/Morgana/Zilean(Okok, this guy needs a full blown rework anyway)? Let me use Zenith Blade off cooldown then."

NavyDiveaOct 29, 20151 votes

Current Karma is shit and doesn't deserve mention.

Pika310Oct 29, 20153 votes

"Early game" is an understatement. Her damage output falls off at level 2 and only gets worse from there. "Small heal" is even more an understatement, it's the weakest heal in the entire game, less than even a Relic Shield, yet simultaneously has the most expensive mana cost. It's not an exaggeration that Nami factually has nearly thrice the damage output and over twice as much healing.

Her ult is NOT big, matter-of-fact its range and width have even been nerfed and it DOES look weak utility-wise when directly compared to other CC ults:

Morg - 3 seconds of slow, followed by 1.5 seconds stun
Annie - 1.75 seconds stun
Nami - Knockup, followed by 2-4 seconds of slow
Bard - 2.5 seconds of stasis
Lulu - 1.5 seconds knockup

delonixOct 29, 20151 votes

As BlackquillEUW pointed out, Karma is the same way. As a support, her poke potential is at its highest at level 1. Sona's heal is actually less expensive than Nami's heal starting at rank 2, and because of the % increase, heals as much as Nami unless Nami is able to heal two people, which is a lot harder than Sona being in range of her adc. Also, this all ignores the shield, which is another factor to consider.

I guess you and I differ on what counts as "big." I couldn't find where it's range and width have been nerfed since patch 1.0.0.105 (unless you mean the visual effect and not the actual stun), so unless I'm mistaken it's still 1000 units long and 250 units wide, enough to stun 25 Teemos. I didn't say it wasn't weak, I said it doesn't seem like no utility to me.

Comparing ults instead of looking at the entirety of the kits and what the meta favors currently seems sort of silly. Sona also has utility attached to her autoattacks. Sona's autoattacks can slow, reduce damage dealt, or deal increased damage, which DOES look strong utility-wise when directly compared to other support autoattacks:

Morg - nothing
Annie - nothing
Nami - nothing
Bard - extra damage and a slow after leaving your adc to die in lane a couple of times
Lulu - Pix does some extra damage

Pika310Oct 29, 20152 votes

Sona's heal is actually less expensive than Nami's heal starting at rank 2,

Wrong, try again:

Nami: 85 mana - http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Nami
Sona: 85 mana - http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Sona

and because of the % increase, heals as much as Nami

Wrong again:

Nami: 95 HP
Sona: 75 HP(while ally is at < 1% HP)

Also, this all ignores the shield, which is another factor to consider.

Ah, the shield. Everyone always jumps on this once I point out the fact that Sona is the worst healer in the game. Her laughably pathetic shield has the lowest base out of the entire class by half or even less, the shortest duration by barely more than 1/3 of the second-shortest and is yet still tied to the highest mana cost. Oh, did I also mention its 350 unit-range is the shortest ranged ability of the entire support class? Literally every support other than Sona has a MINIMUM of 550 or more units on every ranged-spell and every shield is at least 600-units.

I couldn't find where it's range and width have been nerfed since patch 1.0.0.105

You won't find those changes listed anywhere. They're part of a series of secret shadow nerfs that were never included in the patch notes. Other shadow nerfs for Sona include, but are not limited to: reduced base AD, multiple Q-range nerfs and et cetera. These nerfs have been confirmed by multiple players and some even openly admitted to by Rito employees(Crescendo's width and range both being amongst that fewer.)

Sona also has utility attached to her autoattacks. Sona's autoattacks can slow, reduce damage dealt,

The problem with this logic is that SONA'S COOLDOWN ARE NOT SYNCED. It is VERY difficult to use Power Chord on anything other than Staccato whilst her 2 other spells have longer down time. This is where several misconceptions have arisen and is a major problem with the gutting.

```
Morg - nothing
```
```
Annie - nothing
```
```
Nami - nothing
```

Bard - extra damage and a slow after leaving your adc to die in lane a couple of times

```
Lulu - Pix does some extra damage
```

How biased that you ignore several facts: Sona's pre-6 CC is ONCE EVERY 3 SPELLS and all the champions you listed have their own CC on a spell and NOT THEIR AA THAT YOU ARE INTENTIONALLY MISLEADING TO.

Morg - 3 second root
Annie - 1.75 second stun
Nami - 1.5 second stun
Bard - 1.8 second stun
Lulu - 2.25 second polymorph

It's apparent based on your words that clearly you have a rather strong loathing of Sona. I'm disgusted and confused why so many people hate her, but I'm no longer surprised when I come across yet another Sona-hater such as yourself.

delonixOct 29, 20151 votes

{quoted} Wrong, try again:

Nami: 85 mana - http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Nami

Sona: 85 mana - http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Sona

85 mana is equal to 85 mana, but Nami's is higher than Sona's for the rest. I guess I could have said Sona's heal is only higher than Nami's at rank 1, if that would make you happy. The point was, you were wrong, Sona doesn't have the highest mana cost heal, Nami does.

Wrong again:

Nami: 95 HP

Sona: 75 HP(while ally is at < 1% HP)

That's Sona's rank 1 and Nami's rank 2. The numbers are actually:

Rank 1:

Nami 65
Sona 75

Rank 2:

Nami 95
Sona 125

(edit: I don't know what I'm doing wrong...these keep showing up in italics for some reason. The point is Sona's heal is stronger if you compare equal ranks. Sorry about the bad formatting.)

Ah, the shield. Everyone always jumps on this once I point out the fact that Sona is the worst healer in the game. Her laughably pathetic shield has the lowest base out of the entire class by half or even less, the shortest duration by barely more than 1/3 of the second-shortest and is yet still tied to the highest mana cost. Oh, did I also mention its 350 unit-range is the shortest ranged ability of the entire support class? Literally every support other than Sona has a MINIMUM of 550 or more units on every ranged-spell and every shield is at least 600-units.

So I've already shown that the spell doesn't have the highest mana cost and her heal is better than Nami's. This gets me back to my original point that the shield is free. A totally free shield on your already ok small heal spell.

You won't find those changes listed anywhere. They're part of a series of secret shadow nerfs that were never included in the patch notes. Other shadow nerfs for Sona include, but are not limited to: reduced base AD, multiple Q-range nerfs and et cetera. These nerfs have been confirmed by multiple players and some even openly admitted to by Rito employees(Crescendo's width and range both being amongst that fewer.)

I'm not even sure what to say to this. Do you have any sources or do you just know these things instinctively? If I don't know what the changes are, it makes it difficult to have a discussion about Sona.

The problem with this logic is that SONA'S COOLDOWN ARE NOT SYNCED. It is VERY difficult to use Power Chord on anything other than Staccato whilst her 2 other spells have longer down time. This is where several misconceptions have arisen and is a major problem with the gutting.

How biased that you ignore several facts: Sona's pre-6 CC is ONCE EVERY 3 SPELLS and all the champions you listed have their own CC on a spell and NOT THEIR AA THAT YOU ARE INTENTIONALLY MISLEADING TO.

Morg - 3 second root

Annie - 1.75 second stun

Nami - 1.5 second stun

Bard - 1.8 second stun

Lulu - 2.25 second polymorph

So I guess this whole section didn't really hit its mark. My point was that it's ridiculous to try to compare a single part of champions kits, which is what you did with the ultimates. Unless we were to take the time to look at the entire kits of the champions and their role and the current meta, it's impossible to do much meaningful comparative analysis between them.

I don't actually think Sona is overpowered, I think she's in a fine state, but the meta is heavily weighted against her.

It's apparent based on your words that clearly you have a rather strong loathing of Sona. I'm disgusted and confused why so many people hate her, but I'm no longer surprised when I come across yet another Sona-hater such as yourself.

I guess I need to start using "/s" if my sarcasm makes people think I "have a rather strong loathing of Sona." I don't hate Sona, I just think it's good to be rational and look at the actual numbers and consider whether the current meta might have something to do with the perceived weakness of Sona.

Pika310Oct 29, 20152 votes

Sona doesn't have the highest mana cost heal, Nami does.

You misread what I said. I choose my words very carefully and said "Sona has the most expensive heal" NOT the highest mana cost. Nami has a higher mana pool than Sona, she can sustain a rank-3 Ebb and Flow long enough to get a mana or m-gen item to compensate her low support m-gen pattern. Sona cannot.

That's Sona's rank 1 and Nami's rank 2. The numbers are actually:

Rank 1: Nami 65 Sona 75

Rank 2: Nami 95 Sona 125

Since you refuse to check your facts and insist on continuing to lie, I'll do the legwork for you:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v636/pika310/LoL%20Comparison%201_zpsxii4x6u1.jpg

This gets me back to my original point that the shield is free. A totally free shield on your already ok small heal spell.

I've been at this for a long time and that trick is just as tired and played out as your last. I'm more than happy to tear it apart yet again.

You call her shield "free," let's look at what other heals have free abilities:

Nidalee - Free AS
Kayle - Free MS
Bard - Free MS
Nami - Free MS
Taric - Free Passive Damage
Alistar - Free Passive Damage
Soraka - Free Self-Heal on Q

In case you weren't keeping track, that's literally every heal in the game. There's no such thing as a spell that is only a heal without a secondary effect.

I'm not even sure what to say to this. Do you have any sources or do you just know these things instinctively? If I don't know what the changes are, it makes it difficult to have a discussion about Sona.

A list of some of the confirmed shadow nerfs includes, but is not limited to:

minus 2 Base AD; confirmed by a Rito screenshot of Sona pre-4.13
minus 50 range on Hymn; confirmed and reverted by Fearless and Rito(after denial for multiple patches)
an additional minus 100 range on Hymn; also confirmed and reverted by Fearless and Rito
width nerf on Crescendo; confirmed in a recent Rito patch notes
range nerf on Crescendo; possibly confirmed on Sona's Rito champion page(still needs official confirmation as her page has at least 9 mistakes on it)

Unless we were to take the time to look at the entire kits of the champions

Funny you should mention that:

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/AUHkJgo5-the-support-class-a-side-by-side-comparison

I just think it's good to be rational

You praise rational thought, yet you come to this discussion close-minded. That's hypocritical.

delonixOct 30, 20152 votes

{quoted}

You misread what I said. I choose my words very carefully and said "Sona has the most expensive heal" NOT the highest mana cost. Nami has a higher mana pool than Sona, she can sustain a rank-3 Ebb and Flow long enough to get a mana or m-gen item to compensate her low support m-gen pattern. Sona cannot.

So "most expensive" to you means the highest ratio of cost to resource pool? Then Nami still wins. Her mana pool is a whopping 36 more at level 1 and narrows to a measly 2 at level 18. I don't even have to go through the math to know that means Nami's is a larger part of her mana pool at rank 3. There shouldn't be any reason why Nami can support her more expensive rank 3 heal longer than Sona, so actually, yes, Sona can.

Since you refuse to check your facts and insist on continuing to lie, I'll do the legwork for you:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v636/pika310/LoL%20Comparison%201_zpsxii4x6u1.jpg

I'm not sure what you think this image says. The 75 HP I quote for Sona is your math, but I think it checks out. I'm not sure if Sona's self-heal increases past the minimum because of the way the ability is worded. The 65 for Nami at rank 1 is in the picture you linked. The 125 HP for Sona is an extrapolation on your math. The 95, again, for Nami at rank 2 is shown in the picture you linked.

The argument this whole time has been that Sona can reliably heal herself and her adc with her heal, while Nami usually has to settle for one heal and one damage. That means that at equal ranks, Sona is outhealing Nami. The only distortion of facts here has been you listing your math for Sona's rank 1 heal at 75 and putting it next to Nami's rank 2 heal at 95.

I've been at this for a long time and that trick is just as tired and played out as your last. I'm more than happy to tear it apart yet again.

You call her shield "free," let's look at what other heals have free abilities:

Nidalee - Free AS

Kayle - Free MS

Bard - Free MS

Nami - Free MS

Taric - Free Passive Damage

Alistar - Free Passive Damage

Soraka - Free Self-Heal on Q

In case you weren't keeping track, that's literally every heal in the game. There's no such thing as a spell that is only a heal without a secondary effect.

I guess if we're counting things like Nami's passive movement speed and Taric and Alistar's passive damage and Soraka's self-heal from a completely different ability, then we should probably count Sona's heal giving her a stack of her passive, which is like 1/3 of a completely costless, 550 ranged utility spell (or extra damage). How many heals have a tertiary effect?

Again, it's ridiculous to try to do this comparison of single abilities. No one is choosing Nidalee over Sona because Nidalee's AS on her heal is better than Sona's shield on her heal. You have to consider all of the things that make someone pick a certain champion.

A list of some of the confirmed shadow nerfs includes, but is not limited to:

minus 2 Base AD; confirmed by a Rito screenshot of Sona pre-4.13

minus 50 range on Hymn; confirmed and reverted by Fearless and Rito(after denial for multiple patches)

an additional minus 100 range on Hymn; also confirmed and reverted by Fearless and Rito

width nerf on Crescendo; confirmed in a recent Rito patch notes

range nerf on Crescendo; possibly confirmed on Sona's Rito champion page(still needs official confirmation as her page has at least 9 mistakes on it)

That's interesting, but not really the sources I was looking for. It looks like Riot is actually listening and is reverting a lot of these secret nerfs. I tried looking up some of the confirmations, but mostly found other threads by you which also don't link to actual evidence of the nerfs. There's no real reason to assume these are intentional nerfs and not just bugs when Riot is reverting/fixing them.

Funny you should mention that:

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/AUHkJgo5-the-support-class-a-side-by-side-comparison

This is a great comparison, but even it isn't without it's problems. Looking at all of the supports at level 3 with 1 rank in each ability is already biased. Many champs have different power spikes, even outside of supports. Many supports will rank up an ability twice at level 3, leaving one ability unranked.

Looking at total ability damage favors all-in supports and melee supports over poke supports and ranged supports. The bot lane is always a complex interaction of positioning, healing (including lifesteal and base regen), and damage done and taken in trades. Distilling this into numbers, if it's even possible, would be a huge undertaking.

Including Relic Shield in the analysis is also problematic, because it masks the effect of the other support items. If Sona starts with Spellthief's Edge against a Relic Shield user, she'll deal more damage than the Relic Shield user will heal.

Also, consider an unusual support pick that we saw this season in competitive League: Trundle. At level 3, with 1 point in each ability, Trundle has no hard CC, no healing, no shield, no defensive buff, no offensive buff, no mobility buff, and has a massive 20 damage (using your calculation method). I guess you could say his max is less than 1/3 of the next lowest min. Yet Yellowstar brought him out for 2 victories in the EU LCS. This is just one example of why looking at level 3 with 1 point in each ability is problematic.

You praise rational thought, yet you come to this discussion close-minded. That's hypocritical.

I'm not sure why you think I came to this discussion close-minded. I actually came here to see what the original poster had to say about Bot lane support diversity, and then I saw that you weren't sure where Sona fit in, so I commented, and you can read the rest above. I'm not even arguing that Sona is good in this meta or that she wouldn't be better if she was buffed. I'm mostly just pointing out that it's silly to use these kinds of comparisons to make the case that Sona is weak and needs buffs, or whatever your point is.

HentRexOct 30, 20151 votes

Which makes one of my games last week even more horrific. The fact that I, as Sona, had the most damage done to champions on my team. Our top laner was the only one, other than me, that did any damage. Sona carried me out of silver today, so as much as everyone hates on her, I still love her.(Not saying she isn't weak, Plus silver is full of people who don't play support and don't know how to so it's easy) Seriously though this game made me made when looking at the stats lol. http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1990616351/40547873?tab=stats

Pika310Oct 30, 20153 votes

I don't understand why you hate Sona and want her to be deleted from the game. I literally can't understand what made you loathe her so much. Can you try explaining where your dislike for Sona originated from? Are you still salty that she was played back in season 2? Is this an old grudge? I can't know why you hate her if you don't explain it.

HentRexOct 30, 20151 votes

Where in my statement do you find me hating Sona? She is my favorite champ at the moment. Is the sole reason I made it to gold, is fun to play, albeit very risky. One mistake and you can throw a good lead into a snowball defeat. Salty that she was played in season 2? Hell naw she was my main squeeze in season 2 lol. Me and you even had a good long discussion about her yesterday, and you still want to accuse me of Loathing her? Shame on you mate. You even liked part of what I wanted to do to her kit,(added a second passive) ring a bell? Ya I'll admit my numbers where horrible and glad I got some input about that.( Still haven't changed them, I'm working on it.) I want Sona, (and all support mages not named Janna/Lulu) brought back into a viable position. My previous statement was going on the lines of what you said. "Second lowest damage output of the entire support class." All I said was that makes my game even more horrific seeing as how I out damaged my entire team.(Basically saying my team did no damage, and me as Sona had to do everything, but couldn't) On top of that I even wrote "I still love her" How can that be construed into thinking I want her deleted? I can't understand your logic unless you explain it.

Pika310Oct 30, 20152 votes

It seems we've reached a standstill. I understand that you hate Sona, that much is obvious. My asking for the "why" was just a courtesy that apparently you aren't willing to return.

If you don't want to tell me the reason for how you began hating her, then so be it. I'll just continue to be stuck in the dark, confused why people like yourself want her removed from the game.

HentRexOct 30, 20151 votes

Did I forget to pay your bridge toll today or something? lol

Pika310Oct 30, 20153 votes

That's hypocritical coming from the one actually living under that bridge.

It makes me sad when I'm forced to listen to Sona-hating like yours. Please, take this and leave me alone already:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Penny2015.png

HentRexOct 30, 20151 votes

Ok pot, I the kettle will leave you alone. Have a good day. lol <3

Pika310Oct 30, 20151 votes

You actually going to stop? Or are you one of those people that'll keep going til you get the last word?

Athenes LuluOct 29, 20153 votes

The problem with tanks outclassing other supports is that they do everything better than other supports would. As in, why pick (insert a non tank support) when you can pick a tank support?

The tanks alone can already deal as much (if not, more) damage as poke supports do, without having to worry about mana. Why pick squishy little shits when big shits can dish out just as much damage alone?

With the relic shield, they got sustain on both themselves and their lane partners covered. Why pick Nami or Sona when Relic shield heals just as much damage, but without the penalty of using mana?

Back in season 3 where supports hardly ever get items, tanks actually have to worry about stepping into the front lines because if they do it incorrectly, they WILL get poked down to death, which is actually fair because that's their main weakness in lane. With the relic shield, they don't have to ever worry about getting poked down anymore, which removed their MAIN (if not, only) weakness. Therefore, this made their zoning potential just as strong as those of poke supports. Why pick squishy little shits to zone when big shits can do the job just as great, and lives longer?

I'm pretty sure there's more reasons why tank > non tank supports botlane, but these are already important enough to pick tanks over anything else.

Hm, you do have some interesting proposed ideas here. Sure, the spellthief buff and coin nerfs now gives people a choice depending on their playstyles and matchup, instead of picking coin because "it is simply better", but you gotta consider the removal of the mana potions as well which hit that certain class rather hard.

-Scaling AP item based on total AP value of the character- The item has X AP and scales with Y AP per champion level. But this scaling only applies if the champion has not exceeded Z total AP value. (100-250 AP for mage supports)

Now imagine this on FQC or something instead of flat +50 AP... That would actually make supports have SOME kind of scalings that solo laners can't abuse.

BlackquillOct 29, 20152 votes

It could be a bit awkward to create items that only work for a very specific set of champions but i agree, we need more items that fall into the mage/utility category like Zeke's Herald and Ardent Censer!

LVL 5 POROOct 29, 20151 votes

Well, I don't know about items but the new utility masteries heavily favor AP Supports, and not tanks. I think once S6 starts non-tank supports will be at their strongest, easily able to compete with tanks.

BlackquillOct 29, 20152 votes

AP items widely get nerfed and MR gets buffed. mana pots disappear, leaving mage and tank supports with equal starting items: GP5 and 3 health pots. From there on it is just a duel between the HP bar of the tank and the Mana bar of the mage. And this duel is going to be won by the tank, especially when this tank is called "Shen" since he does not need mana and has more HP sustain through his Q.

All of this is still in development but if this trend continues mages will not have a lot of fun in S6.

CroaninOct 29, 20151 votes

Tank supports are just nearly guaranteed to do their job. They're low on gold for items but they're still fairly tanky and take longer to kill then other supports. Then people like to pick selfish carry style mid, top, junglers that offer little to know CC and low durability which a tank support can make up for. Tank supports have a far easier time placing wards because of their bulk and CC to get away in case caught or even just bait a fight.

You play someone like Karma or Brand and you fall behind there just not as effective.

Then we have Thresh who pretty much invalidates every other utility support since he has like the most utility while being a pseudo tank.

LVL 5 POROOct 29, 20151 votes

Okay, so I just read this post and I think its absolute crap. If you want more AP build a Rabadons, you obviously have zero understand of the purpose of supports and why they their items aren't just miniature ludens echo.