Fizz/Ahri changes contradict each other... Reversing your best change to Ahri ever?

Varion Bot·Jan 28, 2015·60 votes·4,982 views

OKAY REWIND TO SEASON 3. Fizz and Ahri are pick/ban choices in lcs. Both champions clearly need nerfs. In response, you cut damage off of Ahri's abilities and added the +20% damage boost to Charm, because you wanted to, and I quote:

-Make Ahri’s “all-in” gameplay more closely tied with landing Charm to establish Charm as Ahri’s “kiss of death” that needs to be avoided, as well as lower her threat/presence while Charm is on cooldown -Keep Ahri’s core gameplay intact while trimming away strength from the low-gameplay patterns that don’t feel rewarding

I liked this change a lot. Instead of getting bursted by Ahri with DFG and various little lights that gravitated to me just because I was close by, I had a clear-cut choice that if I could dodge this one, narrow skillshot, I could survive the rest of her burst. There's something about getting hit with a max range skillshot that makes me think, "I deserve to die here. I couldn't dodge x ability even though I know I could have, so this seems like a balanced, fair way to die." The change made laning as and vs Ahri far more interesting, and now you're REVERSING EVERYTHING YOU'VE DONE. So now I'm thinking, deep breaths man, you can get through this. But as I scroll down...

"Pulling power from Fizz's basic spells and loading them into his ultimate makes sure skilled Fizz players can still slip in and take out priority targets, but now gives some room to breathe when he doesn't line up his shark-bait just right."

Uhhhhhh, what? You JUST removed the EXACT SAME DAMAGE BUFF off of Charm for Ahri! This almost looks like a paraphrase of the 3.13 changes to Ahri I quoted above. With a bit of editing...

"Pulling power from AHRI's basic spells and loading them into HER CHARM makes sure skilled AHRI players can still slip in and take out priority targets, but now gives some room to breathe when SHE doesn't line up HER CHARM just right."

'Nuff said. Let's not go back to the previous state of Ahri. I don't want to get w->r->r->r->ignite 100-0'd ever again.

Watch the season 3 world championship if you want a reminder of how stupid Ahri was before the Charm damage buff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PclyX3yfqio

For god's sake upvote.

72 Comments

KeevalroyJan 28, 201528 votes

I'd be alright with the DFG removal since it's what got her nerfed in the first place, but the kiss-of-death is the best idea they've had for her. It doesn't make sense for why they want to delete it as well, and why they don't want Ahri to be an assassin anymore.

CaeziumJan 28, 20156 votes

What is the difference between a single target burst mage and an assassin? (serious question)

But yes the kiss of death was a really cool idea that fitted thematically with Ahri. Really think they should have kept it instead of making her more kitey.

Auz the RipperJan 28, 20154 votes

They seem to want her to be more of a kite Mage like Orianna then a burst Mage like Annie

DecaedeusJan 28, 20152 votes

A single target burst mage has much less mobility in their kit, and usually focus on pushing the lane and bursting anyone that gets in their way.

An assassin, in contrast, usually has multiple gap-closers but a short-ranged kit, and usually dive in to burst down a target before warping out using their high mobility.

Burst mage: Veigar Assassin: Zed

Crackmaster69000Jan 28, 20156 votes

{quoted}

I'd be alright with the DFG removal since it's what got her nerfed in the first place, but the kiss-of-death is the best idea they've had for her. It doesn't make sense for why they want to delete it as well, and why they don't want Ahri to be an assassin anymore.

so are they trying to impress their ideal of what kind of a champ ahri should be forcibly....that reduces variation in the amount of roles that Ahri can be idealized by league players.....basically like telling us that no, no u can't play off meta builds like ap tristana or else we will nerf to make the champ fit our expectation of what she should be

SmokingPuffinJan 28, 20153 votes

why they don't want Ahri to be an assassin anymore.

They talked about this some on the patch rundown video.

tl;dw - They want to push more uniqueness for champions. There are lots of champions that land a CC and blow someone up. Ahri being good at kiting is a more unique strength.

DecaedeusJan 29, 20153 votes

Really. Kite mages: Azir Ezreal Janna Karma Lux Lulu Nidalee Orianna Syndra Xerath Ziggs Zyra .

List that many ranged assassins.

Tis a nice dayJan 28, 201523 votes

They made Fizz more assassin-ish (requiring ult to deal as much damage as pre-change levels) They made Ahri more Mage-kite-ish (not requiring charm to do heavy damages, but not able to blow people up as easily)

I'm personally fine with the changes.

StoningtonJan 28, 20159 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tis a nice day,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qw9wKFiZ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-01-28T05:21:29.473+0000)

They made Fizz more assassin-ish (requiring ult to deal as much damage as pre-change levels) They made Ahri more Mage-kite-ish (not requiring charm to do heavy damages, but not able to blow people up as easily)

I'm personally fine with the changes.

^This. Really not sure why people are making a big deal over this.

Emmy Cha0sJan 28, 20157 votes

If you don't consider it a big deal, why are you personally going out of your way and expending your own time to even bother posting? Other than the obvious answer of just to troll.

Hyrum GraffJan 28, 20158 votes

I dunno, I think he's entitled to state his opinion.

Like, a lot of the time all we see on the forums is QQ. That's because the people who are satisfied with the changes rarely post. Now someone posts that they like the changes and you're giving them shit about it?

[{quoted}](name=Emmy Cha0s,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qw9wKFiZ,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-28T08:25:01.982+0000)

If you don't consider it a big deal, why are you personally going out of your way and expending your own time to even bother posting?

His post was 13 words. It probably took under 30 seconds to write. I don't think he was really going out of his way -- just chiming in with his opinion.

Grouchy PoroJan 28, 20155 votes

It makes me smile when I remember there are sensible people here.

FunkyyCatJan 28, 20155 votes

you mean 95% of all the people here right?

Grouchy PoroJan 28, 20154 votes

Ya I may have worded that a touch wrong. I meant it's nice to see them speak up. Lots of threads are QQ circle jerks when discussing things like this.

A while ago there was a complaint thread about Morgana's TU showing less cleavage so I chimed in to remind people that the 'male sexualization' they were all trying to use to back up their claims wasn't really a thing. My opposing view was swallowed by pools of QQ and It's nice to see an opposing view recognized as valid.

maikokkJan 29, 20152 votes

they made fizz into a mobile fighter that has his asassin moments. best played top and jungle now imo

shadecrapperJan 29, 20151 votes

Fizz pre 6 though... And not his kit is fully reliant on his ult skill shot... hmmm. Unless you now go more sustain and cdr.

maikokkJan 29, 20151 votes

he now scales best with attack speed, magic pen, and defensive items. basically build him like udyr, teemo, kayle, or elise (depending on preference)

ababytigerJan 28, 20159 votes

Muh Summoner. I've pretty much made the same exact argument for Ahri in my forum post not that long ago.
(http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/mdKJfORb-52-ahri-changes)

Albeit mine did not bring up the contradictions as the main point. though upvote to bring attention to this madness.
Ahri item 3070

RifticJan 28, 20157 votes

I was talking about this change for the longest time. Nobody seemed to care. Nobody cared that the changes were obvious steps backwards in interactive gameplay. Nobody cared that the mathematically provable 33% damage decrease for Ahri was insane for "Compensation buffs".

At the end of the day, I've just learned the hard way that expecting logic from Riot and expecting the League community to care about real problems is unrealistic.

RoyaiChaosJan 28, 20158 votes

Ummm no, imo kiting is more interactive than landing a single skill shot and then death.

NarasimhaJan 28, 20152 votes

Oh its definitely an overall nerf, much in the same way that many other characters got nerfs. The difference is, they buffed some stuff so that it wasn't so bad. A 'compensation buff' doesn't mean keeping her at the same level, or even making her stronger. It means giving her something small to make up for losing something big.

Pika310Jan 28, 20156 votes

Except in Ahri's case, she's getting nerfed twice.

DFG removed... whatever. This affects everyone except #LC$BigPlays Zed, but Riot PROMISED compensation at least for Ahri as far as this thread is concerned.

Charm damage removed, replaced with awkward lackluster mobility.

Wait, that's the end of it? Didn't Riot promise compensation for DFG's removal? I see a standalone change and no compensation besides it. Riot blatantly lied to our faces, they never planned on doing anything resembling a "compensation," that was just propaganda used to justify a non-sequitur change.

NarasimhaJan 28, 20152 votes

Now I could be wrong, but didn't they flat out buff her W and her E? Sure, its not enough to make her as strong as before, but that definitely sounds like 'compensation' to me. Or would you rather she actually got nothing at all?

Pika310Jan 28, 20157 votes

As a matter of fact, I would prefer they left her completely untouched instead of this shitty nerf and the usual propagandized lies to our faces. As an ex-Sona player, I've had more than what I can take of Riot lying to my face already.

missinggraveJan 28, 20153 votes

Please don't talk about Sona on an Ahri thread, I don't want the next joke to be, "Better nerf Ahri" :c

EDIT: omg why is this getting downvoted I'm not saying they can't I'm paranoid Riot will get ideas

RifticJan 28, 20154 votes

DFG getting removed?

Better nerf Ahri.

missinggraveJan 29, 20154 votes

ITS BEGUN

Pika310Jan 29, 20154 votes

Zilean

I knew this would happen.

JØJłJan 28, 20155 votes

They didn't need to remove the 20% amp on Ahri.... something needs to feel like a reward for hitting her charm...

AwoofJan 28, 20157 votes

Well, they are still charmed...

JØJłJan 28, 20155 votes

true but now she does less without the 20%.

AwoofJan 28, 20154 votes

Well, duh, I just meant the reward is the stun, has always been. (you wouldn't need a skillshot for damage amp alone)

missinggraveJan 28, 20154 votes

All I know is that 1) It better not effect her kit THAT much in terms of damage. I can understand needing a spell or two after her combo in order to get a kill, but that kiss of death was pretty easy to dodge unless you get in close (( or your lane opponent is really aggressive for some reason )) and 2) I really want the satisfaction of landing charm other than the CC. You could just add her laugh when it lands for people to hear and that would be enough. I don't want just the boring, "Now they walk towards me" CC effect, I want something to feel like Ahri like the, "Don't you trust me?" quote she's famous for. Her kiss of death had that effect and I want to hold onto it, even if it doesn't deal the damage it used to.

Dr BirdieJan 28, 20154 votes

That means there would be no reward for landing a Tibbers Stun, or proccing a Braum passive, or hitting a Xerath E.

The reward is that they are stunned and vulnerable to subsequent attacks.

mi ramfanJan 28, 20155 votes

The difference is that Ahri has the option to have a mage-like play style thanks to her ranged spells. Fizz has no such option; all of his abilities except his ultimate are point and click and require him to begin or end in melee range to deal damage. As such, while the damage amp on Charm was an attempt to shoehorn Ahri into the assassin role when she didn't need to be one to succeed, Fizz's new damage amp makes him even more of an assassin then he already was...IF he lands his ult.

Give the Ahri changes a week or so before you trash them. Yeah, she'll do less damage in her 1 rotation burst combo, but I think we'll find her to be much more effective kiting around the edges of the fight than you might think. Given that I always played Ahri that way even with the damage amp (with the exception of going for kills in lane), I'm looking forward to these changes.

Drunk RummateJan 28, 20154 votes

I've been complaining about this since the day it popped up on PBE. Really sad that they're doing this to Ahri... she's going to entirely lose her unique feel and just feel like another mediocre kite mage that we already have dozens of (ori, xerath, ziggs, azir.. etc)

midoriiJan 28, 20154 votes

Please bring back the damage amp buff Riot. Many Ahri players have no need to charm opponents as we can aim our Qs perfectly fine. This makes charm a waste of mana as you can easily Q and get more damage out of it.

Please bring cohesion back to her kit :(

SmokinSickStyleJan 28, 20153 votes

Except Her W and R ratios aren't those of S3.

Ahri is a ranged mage, the changes + DFG made her a Ranged ASSASSIN with mage properties, they wanted to underline this last aspect, her mage one.

Fizz instead was dealing\still is dealing alot of damage with just his basic spells (Which isn't his real problem anyway, E does 2 much damage AoE for a defensive spell) and he's melee, they wanted to improve the Assassin part of Fizz which requires landing all of his spells in the correct order and straegically, hence why the 20% increased damage.

Almost every pure Assassin needs to combo properly with their ults to kill something, he can just EE+W+Qlichbane to kill his main target, especially when combined with DFG.

Once again, Ahri's W and Ult ratios aren't as high as before so it's unlikely that she can W+R*3 + ignite to kill someone unless fed.

Imho the change + removal made her deal less burst and penalizing less the target hit by her Charm, because she was having the same issue as Fizz even if it was less present (E landed?DFG W+Q+ignite ggisiskill).

An overall nerf to both.

ZoofJan 29, 20151 votes

What he says here is pretty much how I see it, they added the amp to fizz because it actually makes him a somewhat challenging character to play now, if he misses his ult, he loses a LOT of damage in his combo and I feel that is good, if anything he might become weak since his obnoxious 1hko on anyone he pleases has been removed.

As far as Ahri is concerned, I feel as though the damage amp was a really cool concept, but Riot really did state they just want her to be a kiting styled mage and not an assassin which is what they originally planned for her. I'm not saying that she shouldn't be an assassin and please don't mindlessly downvote because I'm saying agreeing with riot, all I'm saying is that Riot has a very clear image of what they want Ahri to be and they couldn't have that while DFG existed.

The changed will leave her weak, no doubt about that, but all they need to do is some light number tweaks and she should be strong enough to live up to that kite mage archetype.

Pika310Jan 29, 20151 votes

but all they need to do is some light number tweaks

Riot never buffs champions, it's against their current balance team's philosophy. If they do give her some number tweaks, she's going to lose A LOT OF POWER elsewhere in her kit for a very small increase. Patch history proves this.

Linna ExcelJan 28, 20152 votes

The charm damage buff didn't happen until her season 4 rework IIRC.

KeevalroyJan 28, 20159 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qw9wKFiZ,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-01-28T06:17:53.600+0000)

The charm damage buff didn't happen until her season 4 rework IIRC.

AFTER she was gutted with DFG still in the game.

SammystormJan 28, 20152 votes

Apparently not gutted.

Pika310Jan 28, 201511 votes

So you're going to completely ignore the fact she ceased seeing play entirely until her buffs in patch 4.12? How convenient for you.

ThePlasticSporkJan 28, 20152 votes

I honestly kind of doubt Ahri is going to be 100-0ing anybody with W-R-R-R. It still seems to me that if you dodge her skillshots there's not really much chance of her killing you. This change helps her teamfighting quite a bit but in-lane it seems largely the same - dodge charm and you won't die.

KeevalroyJan 28, 20157 votes

And even if you get hit with charm, it's now an inconvenience at a hefty mana cost for her rather than a death sentence.

Zyras Honey PotJan 28, 20152 votes

I'll leave my judgement until I actually get to play with the new changes I guess. As long as she still has enough damage to actually kill charmed targets on her own then it's fine, otherwise I can see this being problematic. I mean Ahri without ult in a teamfight as a mage is just going to be a worse insert any other mage and without DFG OR the Charm 20% buff her picking off individual targets before a teamfight isn't going to be as easy.