Let's Discuss: Pre-Season 2017 - Runes Reforged

Modmichaelchan·11/10/2017, 9:20:22 PM·33 votes·9,079 views

With the 2017 Pre-Season in full swing, we thought it'd be the perfect time for another "Let's Discuss" post! This post is focused on Runes during gameplay; we have a different post for discussing Blue Essence and content pricing.

For those of you who are new to the series, the "Let's Discuss" posts are focused on consolidating useful feedback about the topic at hand. This is a place to put high-level concerns and/or suggestions about the new content. We want people to discuss and debate what's working and what isn't. This is not a place to simply complain about the new system; posts here should be focused on constructive feedback and discussion.

THIS POST WILL BE AGGRESSIVELY MODERATED If your post isn't contributing to a meaningful and respectful discussion, expect it to be removed.

I think that's all the introduction we need for this, so please take a look at the comments and contribute where you can! Remember to keep it respectful- we won't all agree about everything with the new system. Discuss away!

190 Comments

Melledoneus11/10/2017, 9:59:58 PM38 votes

Tank runes could use better effects than "heal your ally" and "have some HP."

I think we need things like damage reduction, CC resistance (different from tenacity in that it scales linearly and it reduces CC by a set number of seconds), lowered cooldowns for taking heavy damage, and maybe even a rune to sustain one's self in a fight by doing their job as a tank: soaking up damage.

Tanks runes right now feel grossly underwhelming and it doesn't really help given their situation before preseason.

AirKingNeo11/10/2017, 11:32:54 PM11 votes

If you buff tank runes, barely buff them. Seriously, barely.

Damage runes? Nerf the shit out of them because a lot of them are insane. Lethal Tempo should not be 30-80% AS, it should be 15-50%.

Also I think the Summoner Spell one shouldn't reduce the cooldown of Smite (might break the jungle a bit), but should enable buying Smite items if you choose to change to Smite.

Zullar11/11/2017, 1:41:47 AM11 votes

My initial thoughts on the new runes:

The good: They hit the mark on feeling impactful & unique (as opposed to a bunch of minor stat padding).

Runes like Predator/Dark Harvest completely change gameplay in interesting ways.

The bad: 1: The old system had 2 meaningful keystone AP options with sustained multi-target damage (Deathfire Touch) vs. single target burst (Thunderlords). The new system has 5 semi-redundant single-target burst Keystones (Aery, Electrocute, Comet, Predator, Dark Harvest). I'm fine with 5 slightly different burst options, but I'm frustrated that there is no sustained/multi-target damage option like DFT. What option is there for somebody who wants to blanket the enemy team in small sustained damage to soften them up like DFT used to do (i.e flash in and Zonyas with Karthas)?

2: I would prefer stats being decoupled from the trees. i.e. Fleet Footwork might be nice for some sustain but the 18% attack speed is wasted on most champs completely ruling out the entire tree. If flexibility & choice is a design goal, then coupling stats to a tree is counterproductive. In my opinion the old system was better in the sense that stats (runes) were decoupled from the masteries.

3: I miss being able to pick 0%, 10%, 20%, or 30% scaling CDR with runes. Before your could pre-plan your gear and hit 40% CDR by supplementing runes (For an extreme example I would take 30% scaling CDR + 10% from Zonya's or Banshees freeing up an extra item slot). Now Morellonomicon is the only practical way to get 40% CDR. Having only 1 realistic option pigeon holes builds.

4: Lane poke. Sorcery Aery + Sorcery Scorch is +50 damage at level 1. I guess time will tell if this makes ranged supports too oppressive. Add in cheap shot and you are looking at +62 damage at level 1 on a single ability poke (MF Make-it-rain, Lux E, etc.).

5: Mana regen: There is only 1 option for mana regen with the new system. Sorcery: Manaflow Band (unless you count biscuits). And manaflow band feels clunky... not sure when the next proc is coming up. A smooth 0.13% missing mana/sec would be less clunky than an 8% proc every 60sec. Really feels like forcing an unnecessary clunky mini game here (Does mana regen really need to be a mini game?!). Also, with the new system you only have 1 option for mana regen (which pigeon holes builds) but with old system you had 2 options -A: Masteries: Meditation -B: Sacrifice armor yellows for mana regen yellows if I wanted to be risky (this option no longer exists)

6: Flat stats vs Scaling: The old runes typically had flat & scaling rune options. I thought it was an interesting choice... do you want flat MR or scaling MR? Flat cooldown or scaling cooldown? I personally used to take scaling runes and try to survive lane knowing it would give me an advantage later. But many of these options do not exist with the new system (a few exceptions like Resolve-Resistance line, Sorcery: Gathering Storm).

So as somebody who typically ran 30% scaling CDR runes, scaling mana regen yellows, and DFT my old build has been 100% gutted by the new system and there is no replacement these.

Maralik11/15/2017, 7:09:05 AM10 votes

The new rune system promised a higher versatility and range of gameplay for champions. However, it's built to do just the opposite. For example, let's say that you want to play Shen top. My personal play style was to run full attack speed reds and quints, with scaling mr blues, and flat armor yellows; this gave me a little more of an edge early, while grasp of the undying and my other tank masteries would carry me further later in the game.

With the new system YOU CAN'T DO THAT. If you want some attack speed to start the game, you HAVE to take precision as your primary tree, which will give you some early game advantages, but will quickly punish you for not having nearly enough survivability in a teamfight. Conversely, if you pick tankiness as your primary tree, you will get a bonus 130 hp no matter what secondary tree you choose; so congrats, your auto attacks are going to be slow AF unless by some miracle you take that Legend: alacrity secondary mastery AND manage to get some kills with your pitifully weak attack speed.

I personally would rather that riot would give you bonus stats based on BOTH of the trees you choose. If I want to hit a little faster, but still want to be a tank, I should be able to take Precision as a secondary tree and get a little attack speed from it. You are essentially tied down to whatever primary tree you choose. This isn't a bad thing for all champions, zed can still 100 - 0 you with one combo, pantheon can Q spam into next week with the new mana ring, rengar can delete you with spooky stacks, darius can still out-tank your damage with 300 ad of his own, etc.

But can you see where the trend is? Right now high damage burst is the most rewarding path, and if you don't have it, you'd best hope you laned against another idiot who didn't take it either (not likely), so that the lane has some semblance of normalcy.

parthannoon11/12/2017, 7:03:14 PM8 votes

I've read somewhere that the rework would have made the game more versatile. I'm actually thinking the opposite. The way it is now just encourages to play 1 style and play it dead on rock-hard. The choice of runes have too much impact on the game right now. If you pick runes for this style of play, but the game folds out to better try it differently, you're screwed. Earlier you could choose a balance to be decent either way the game ends up. Besides that it is too unclear to me on what to pick. I don't know the name of every effect by heart, and consequently I don't know what runepage to pick (from the 5 default for example...). I used to have supportive masteries with some ap stats, because usually they're helpful. However there are cases I'd rather go as/ad/tanky instead of ap. This simple change costs 6300 PER thing now. Earlier just a mastery page extra which was for free. And it is still not balanced, which could have been analyzed on before hand. Does the IT dept really just develop and push their changes? Never an analysis... EVERY new feature comes unbalanced in this game, whether it be a new champion, an entire rework of the game, ...

I'd rather hope Riot says "we tried and failed miserably, let's roll back to something that works" (like the old system). Of course the first comments now will be "something new will always be received with scepticism and criticism", but this is just not it. They missed the train of good thoughts completely.

This is just my feedback on the change with runes and masteries. tl;dr. It is not balanced, it is again a moneything, it is not versatile and not clear.

Azadethe11/10/2017, 10:20:31 PM8 votes

Hi guys. I've been defending the new runes, because they have brought one very important thing back to the game; The ability for mages to have sustain.

However, I think I know why people are complaining: Electrocute.

Electrocute does up to a 140 base + AP scaling plus AD, and most importantly has a really low cooldown.

I've tried Comet, Predator, Aery, and Dark Harvest as other damage boosts, but nothing adds up to Electrocute's utility, other than perhap a VERY good support using Aery (Karma can make Aery explode in damage, because Aery's returns time very well with Karma's abilities).

I've gotten Electrocute to 300 damage in only 3 built items: Jungle Echo, Lichbane, and a Hextech Gunblade. It almost ensures an execute on a champ like Evelynn, Kayne, Rengar, Jhin, MF, etc.

The rest have some serious drawbacks:

Grasp no longer works on "On Hit" effects but rather literally on basic attacks only.

Aery is very champ specific, and the per hit burst is much lower, making it outhealable.

Predator has an insane cooldown, which extremely limits its ability to execute off its damage, and the charge is interruptible, and often doesn't actually get procced, because fights change to quickly. It's also usually not useable pre 6.

Comet requires slows/cc to hit reliably, and its scaling is much lower than Electrocute.

Press the Attack relies on specifically one type of damage to proc: "hits" aka Basic attacks.

Only Electrocute and Aery can be procced by both auto attacks, skills, and never miss, and Electrocute has much higher scaling.

I'll give you an example: I regularly play Eve. I've tried Grasp, Predator, Comet, and Electrocute on her.

-Grasp eve is only fun vs compositions where she can get off auto attacks and secondary Domination. it's extremely effective vs a Cho gath, who normally counters an offensive Eve. Also nice vs a Xin, most ADC's, and a fed Zed.

-Predator has its uses, but 70% of the time the charge up on Eve's Charm + boots is clunky and gets countered as the person just runs away before the boots are ready. Timing is horrible. It means a lot of the time, you waste Eve's Predator damage, which means her next ult willl go in naked without the Predator damage.

-Comet misses regularly, and doesn't scaling high enough on a jungle champ's AP (I had 33% hit rate with Comets).

-Electrocute...... I get Triple and Double kills, almost Quad kills. When the other team groups, my Q's on Taste of Blood + Ravenous Hunger just give me enough sustain to stay in, use her Q, and erase 1100 hp off their entire group,+ hit one with an electrocute, which means I have 1 set up for instant KO on ult, and the other two will die from my post ult Q's and E's, if i use R correctly.

In fact, I've played so much league my W and E keys on my keyboard are faling off, and breaking. My W has one of 4 posts actually holding on, and my E sticks and doesn't signal use but like once every 4-5 taps. Yet with Electrocute, I somehow just went 11/4/4 with a super defunct keyboard. I watched as my Q just erased Teemo, Ahri, and Ezreal. Did some 1900 Electrocute damage even though most of the game I was just auto farming jung because my Keyboard was so bad.

On a Karma with Aery, who can proc her damage about every 12 sec in lane RELIABLY, I only managed about a 1800 damage game with hitting about every skill. Sona and Nami both fall behind Aery use vs Karma damagewise (Sona uses the shield 5 times as much as the damage, Nami can use both about equal).

On Comet, I've only averaged 500-900 damage. On Predator 560-1300 damage, depending on Luck

...... As much as I hate to say it, I think the problem is that Taste of Blood and Ravenous Hunger are on the same rune tree as Electrocute. it allows insane useage, insane self sustain, and you can SAFELY use 3 skills, and heal out of trades.

I miss Ancient Tome and Hextech's spell vamp, so I love these healing runes. But.... Electrocute is just too useable. It'd be better if Electrocute was on Sorcery and Phase Rush was on Domination, because then sustain + damage would be different choices.

As is, No skill Kayns can 1 hit anyone, and from very early, with Electrocute.

Tortunga11/10/2017, 11:04:09 PM6 votes

Here is some of my opinion of the new Rune system, most of it is more general then specific runes.

Resolve should have been split in two trees.

Resolve is the defensive tree, and because every row has to provide something for every class that wants some extra defences. This includes all bruiser classes, and all the tank classes. The result is a tree with minimal options for every class (especially for key-stones) and bland runes. Juggernauts take Grasp, Vangaurds take Aftershock, and Wardens take Gaurdian, as each of them have no other option.

Splitting them in two different trees would allow a more diverse option of runes for both of these classes, and any other class that would like to pick up some extra defences for that matter. One tree should focus on Juggernauts and Vanguards, the more offensive tanks/bruisers, build around some extra damage, stickinish, sustainablity, and health as defensive stat with Keystones like Grasp and Aftershack.

The second one should focus more on the Wardens and Peelers, the really defensive classes, build around protecting your team members, peeling and general defences. Their defence should focus more on resistances to make a different with the other tree, with their runes providing allied defences (Like the Gaurdian Keystone, and Revitalize/Font of Life smaller runes), peeling abilities (Like extra slows for example) and just general defences.

Inspiration tree is a fun idea, but just doesn't seem very appealing outside of certain 'exploit' cases.

The only champion I have seen so far that has taken inspiration as their main tree is Ezreal with Kleptomancy, as his Q will activate the rune. Looking at the runes I can completely understand this, as all three runes are just to situational, where for some I'm even wondering who would want to use these in what situation.

Unsealed Spellbook allows you to change your summoners. The only two cases I could see this being valuable is for an offensive support changing ignite to exhaust after laning phase, and an aggressive Top laner changing ignite for teleport. But both in these cases, they would most likely be better of taking a different keystone, and stick with their ignite or not take it all together, as other keystones just provide much more value. Especially if you are playing an aggressive support or top laner, you will most likely need the extra damage from one of the other runes to really cement an early lead.

Glacial Augment seems to be ment for engagers that want some extra stickiness. To me it just seems a bit overkill on providing extra slows; If you already engaged the enemy you most likely locked him down, or at the least slowed him down. You don't need more slows. Especially the freezing ray part just seems overkill; They are already slowed, why would you need more slowing ground? It doesn't help against the enemy just dashing away from the slowing ground as well, which is the main weakness of engages that mainly rely on slows.

Kleptomancy is just an exploit rune. If you can use it effectively like Ezreal can, you can get large laning advantages with extra gold, and free potions, wards and elixers. It's a fun keystone for sure, but outside of Ezreal and maybe GP extremely situational and RNG based.

The smaller runes consist of some good ones, and some bad ones. Perfect Timing, future market, Cosmic Insight, and Celestial Body are all good situational runes, with stuff like providing a free Zhonya item against certain all-in match-ups (Mainly against Zed), the possibility to go in debt for earlier buyes, extra CD + higher cap, and flat 100 extra health without any negative effects after 10 minutes.

The rest just feels a bit underwhelming in what they really provide; Biscuits that are only effective if you are low on health (where you most likely are going to back anyway), 10% movement speed towards CC'ed enemies/allies, easier last hitting, or a small flash with 2.5 seconds cast time for creative gank pathing. All of them are just to situational, with a couple even feeling pretty useless altogether.

Overall inspiration tree just feels a mess, with a combination of left over ideas and filler runes. The only Keystone that is seeing play regulary is on 1 champion that can really exploit it. Some of the smaller runes aren't that bad for the secondary tree choice, but as a main tree it just doesn't offer enough.

The stat bonus from rune trees should depend on both trees.

One reason why damage seems so out of control is the lack of early game defensive stats. If the bonus for runes tree (the flat stats you get from just choosing your main tree) would be a combination of both the main and second tree, you could chose a defensive secondary tree to get some extra defensive stats. The main tree should provide more stats, then the second tree.

An example to make it better clear; Sorcery + resolve would give 10 AD/15 AP + 80 health, instead of the current 15 AD/25 AP. Turning it around and going Resolve + Sorcery would give 120 health + 6 AD/10 AP.

In this case choosing a defensive tree as a secondary will provide valuable early game defences, when you are facing a harder lane. Something that is not possible in the current system, without the need to chose a defensive tree as your main one.

Adaptive damage really seem to favour AD champions.

With this I don't mean the adaptive scaling, but abilities that can deal or AP or AD damage, depending on what will deal the most damage. This favours AD champions more then AP champions in my opinion, as the abundance lethality options compared to magic penetration options, allows AD champs to make better use of the basic stats on these abilities. This is the clearest noticeable in how much extra burst AD champions can get from Electrocute keystone, especially when compared with the sudden impact minor rune. A lot of champions, like Nocturn, Jarven and Lee, can kill you with 1 full combo after level 6 with sometimes nothing more then a Serrated Dirk for damage items.

Winek Chan11/13/2017, 1:04:15 AM6 votes

I don't like how the adaptative runes forces you into something- it's quite sad for more hybrid champion, so for example if I play Akali, I would love having the AD from the runes to help me with the cs a bit more, but as soon as I buy a book, it just cancels out and I'm forced into AP.

Would it be possible for people to be able to chose what they want from runes instead of it being forced?

MadMad Sickness11/10/2017, 11:19:02 PM6 votes

I made a post about the runes, and I would like to put a summary of the info here so that It can be collaborated and considered:


Riot has incorporated a simpler system to allow for a sort of "on the fly" customization (going so far as to allow you to customize your runes before a match). And it's not a terrible decision. This new system is great for tailoring your experience a certain way and comboing certain "rune" synergies to allow for a better endgame. It allows for a better "new-player" experience and has made the game easier for newbies and for people who want to join the game. The customization is good, it feels fluid and fun.

However, our ability to decide certain inherent character scaling to tailor our stats for defense has caused a bit of a void.

So, what has happened is that in removing the rune system and removing these decision making abilities: we have lost the ability to counter certain early-game play styles through the decisions of how our character scales early on in the game (which was basically where the old rune-system most shined).

Hence, these mastery/game changes currently push most champion "power curves" more towards end-game snowballing. This has lead to the result that small differences in power early on in the game, which occur quickly or from the start, can be abused to quickly scale up a champion up the power curve and essentially decide the game within probably the first 10min (From what I can tell, this is the case for most situations).

This is a consequence to not being able to tailor the early game: champions who fall behind, fall behind faster.

From what I can see most of the new mastery's rely on "takedowns", "time-scalings", and other effects that mostly all snowball and compete with one another while hardly giving any early-game stats or advantages that seperate them from the other mastery "rune" skills.

To solve this, options that raise the power curve in the beginning of the game may help the current system

What I personally believe we need is more Early game stats or "runes" that tailor the early game and can help defensive or "counter" playstyles. We need more things that are powerful in the beginning but lose their effects as the game goes on (which is what the old flat rune stacking did). They need to be powerful and they need to be able to counter the effects of snowballing while also being able to compete with "snow-balling" runes. They need to be versatile, unique, and "different" from one another while competing horizontally (with other early-game power spikes) and vertically (end-game power spikes)

To top it all off, increasing the durability and damage of towers early on in the game may also help to protect the early game.


With my limited, limited understanding of the way things work, these are generalities I have been able to comprehend about the new changes and how I believe we can make this new system better.

I also want to thank you personally for making this thread. I was just wondering how Riot was going to go about funneling ideas while having a chance to consider them, and then I found this post.

This thread is a wonderful way to do exactly that.

Kudos

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Biscuit Bite11/11/2017, 12:45:43 AM6 votes
  • Games are too fast now. Some champions are too tanky some are too squishy.

  • It snowballs to hard, I find wards too useless now.

  • Press the attack seems too strong because it makes you take increased damage from all sources and other paths are too weak.

  • We no longer have similar keystones to what we had, and because of that some champions feel bad or too good.

  • Turrets are weak, when 4 people dive you, you both die and they get out with almost full hp. They deal no damage, take all the damage. No time to react to a push.

  • ** In the old system I used to take a tower when 4 people went top, now, I try to take a tower, ALL of them are already where I am. Did you boost movement speed or what have you done?**

  • Harder to have a comeback now, since when they get fed they really GET fed. I think the scale per level is too much?

  • Some mages seem to deal less damage while others tend to 100 to 0 someone.

  • No real option to choose flat magic penetration for mages.

  • No real option to choose flat lethality for ad.

Lunar Nasus11/12/2017, 7:55:16 PM6 votes

I don't understand why Transcendence is gated to level 10, instead of either being scaling or immediately offered at the start of the game to make it a lot more impactful.

If you look at the average game length and the time it takes to get to level 10, your CDR is barely offered 75% of the way through the game, when ADC's and such have 0 level requirements on their runes.

I don't get why it's gated to level 10. At least making it SCALING to level 10 or something, but it feels underwhelming to wait and wait and wait and wait through laning phase just to get some effect on it.

It used to be scaling to level 10, now it's just... not, and I don't get it, at all.

Ravensand11/11/2017, 6:36:01 PM5 votes

Something I would like to see added (back into it) is to simply "move" the runepages in the order I would like to have them. Click, Drag, Swap, Done. :)

ModThe Djinn11/10/2017, 9:29:10 PM5 votes

I'm personally curious to see what unusual builds people are running that have worked out nicely for them. Stuff like Kleptomancy Ezreal is really cool -- if maybe a little too high on the gold generation -- and I'm curious to see what other unusual combos may work out well.

Especially intrigued by the strategy of a late-game global team running Unsealed Spellbook + Demolish and opting into Teleport + Zz'Rot Portal. Maybe with TF/Pantheon/Tahm Kench/Ryze/Quinn and Unsealed Spellbook for maximum mobility. Shred towers, force splitpushes, and dominant the map. Thoughts on that? Anyone tried it so far?

ShoapDispenser11/13/2017, 2:17:24 PM5 votes

Dear Riot,

Your new system provides you with more income right now, but once everyone realises they need to pay real money in order to buy in-game stuff, they will start abandoning your well-developed game. Therefore, your huge fanbase and consequently your income system will fail. Please think this through. Listen to peoples' opinions and change the way people earn BE (hint: restore earning BE after the games). People will do the math, realise you are scamming them and leave once and for all. Do you really wish to be known as the great game that got too greedy?

A deeply concerned Summoner Amumu

deadlychuck11/12/2017, 8:28:23 PM4 votes

How about this.

You guys set a public hardline date (i'd say probably early into, or just before, S8) for quality assurance.

If the new system hasn't been brought to a satisfactory state, then you revert the changes outright and bring back the system which seemed to have no problem behaving in a satisfactory way for years.

Either way, this would need to be done before you start making champion and item balance changes around the new system. If you do start doing that before the problems of the system itself are addressed, i think it's safe to say that you aren't even willing to entertain the idea reverting the system, even if it's objectively worse than the old system.

I Do Not Recall11/13/2017, 8:02:32 PM4 votes

Look, as a preface I'm sure Riot is just messing around with preseason ideas and stuff and I didn't expect the game to be well balanced with such sweeping changes to the rune system. So let me be clear this is not a "complaint" or me "whining" about the new rune system...

I just wanted to bring up some points that struck me as a bit obvious and fundamental to how the game works. I hope that somebody might respond with something to ease my worries, idk.

  1. k, so with the new rune system everybody essentially lost access to "free" resistances, MR, armor, flat and leveling. You can still take either mirror shell or iron skin, but only one or the other, and it come at the significant cost of taking another rune. This is infact a significant cost because with the new system you only get to choose 6 benefits, a drastic REDUCTION in choices when compared to the old system of having 9x 9x 9x 3x runes to choose from, all of which could technically offer defensive stats if you so chose.

So why is that such a big problem? because now games are more likely to be decided by which team has the worst player. And again this isn't me complaining or being "toxic" this is just a detached observation of how the game will fundamentally work with the new evolving meta, let me explain. Players earn gold IN-GAME and then have to spend that gold on items that will put them ahead. If the other team has a fed AP assassin then I am now REQUIRED to spend that gold on magic resistance. Lets say I buy a null mantle for 450 gold so that i don't get one shot. Now I'm 450 gold behind because matchmaking gave me a teammate who happens to be less skilled than theirs...

This effect is HUGE. period. If an AP assassin or even just a mage gets fed then every member of the opposing team has to spend 450 gold on a null mantle to stay alive, thats a 450x5=2,250 gold advantage, just from null-mantles, whereas in the old system taking MR blues was only at the cost of taking greedier runes such as cdr or ap or magic pen, or something else. Plus you still had the entire mastery tree to get other benefits going into the game plus your reds your quints and your yellow runes...

Currently, with the new system there are only two other options for playing around a fed AP character. Take runes (+5 MR rune, and a magic damage shield in sorcery) specifically for it when you can only choose from 6 runes total, OR buy MR using gold you have to earn in game, both of which already puts you at a serious disadvantage vs everybody else on the assassins team where having MR does nothing for you. (or dont buy MR at all and risk getting literally one shot)

There is a limit to how much you can "outplay" somebody in this game and there is a limit to how long you can stall out the game by splitting or avoiding going near a certain character because they are too fed. Eventually you have to address the issue and as of right now it involves spending gold and putting yourself behind.

  1. I've already mentioned it but it is its own separate point that I wanted to bring up. Choices. We now have 6 options to pick from for out of game load-out bonuses. Before we had 30 rune slots, all of which had several several runes to choose from + we had 3 mastery trees with 30 points to use on it and 15 choices per tree is 45 choices. The new system is streamlined, I LIKE the new rune system, and runes feel powerful and game changing. But this is continuing a trend I've noticed in riots game design, that i personally don't like: The "pushing" of roles and niches or whatever you want to call it. Where a champion is specifically meant to be a tank, or a champion is specifically meant to be a support.

The best part of league is and always has been in being creative, doing unexpected things and breaking the mold. It's kept things fresh for along time in this game. Things like AP Yi, Full AD Garen, crit strikes on the old Talon, AP Sion, Attack speed Kennen, AP Varus, AD or on-hit Bard, AP shyvana, AP Jax the list goes on and on, some of them get nerfed, removed, some of them aren't that great, some of them aren't that viable, some of them are actually really good and stick around without getting nerfed. But at the end of the day that's what makes league so fun for so so many people. and while the new runes are cool, and they certainly allow some new cool things to happen, it's just not going to be like it was before. What made all those wonky off-beat things possible before was the old rune system, where you could take 33.5% crit damage at the expense of anything else, or 19.5 magic pen, or 50 something MR for galio, etc etc.

The point here is that there was so many options and it really allowed you to try wonky off-beat things with champions. Now you get what? 15 cool keystones that have cool effects. But it's starting to feel like I'm choosing a keystone and then picking a champion based on who can abuse the keystone, who can abuse Kleptomancy or Aftershock more? I'll pick them since if I pick another champ ill just be using the same keystone but it wont be optimal. It's starting to feel less like I'm picking the Champion I want to play and then loading it out with the runes and masteries that allow me to do what i want to do with the champion.

Anyway, don't mean to bash, i'm enjoying the new system for the most part. Let me know what you guys think.

Bolwinkel11/11/2017, 3:26:04 PM4 votes

All of the damage runes feel way more overpowering than the tank runes. Nerf the damage runes a bit, and buff the tank runes a bit.

Tolinar11/14/2017, 6:26:09 AM3 votes

Cass got screwed over, big time. She was hit the absolute hardest by these changes.

She can't use 2 of the runes (Predator or Magical Footwear). She can't get any early Magic Pen, and unlike every other mage in the game, she can't build an early Sorcerer's Shoes.

Every other mage gets more kit damage from Runes, so even if she picks damage runes, Cass's kit is even further behind. Her free movespeed is matched by Magical Footwear, and her late scaling is matched by Gathering Storm. Which, by the way, is seriously overpowered.

And since her autoattack animation can't be performed while casting Q, W or E, about a third of the runes (that operate from autoattacks) are inherently useless. The most popular Korean rune on her is Phase Rush. This is the new Stormraider's. That should tell you how bad it really is. Cass's best option for runes is Phase Rush...

Which by the way is trivialized by the speed boost from her Q.

Basically everything Cass could do before, has become open territory thanks to Runes. Everyone deals so much more damage and is so much more maneuverable, Cass isn't even relevant, and she has nothing to support her play style in the changes.

There are plenty of special interactions for certain Runes that every champion has. Not Cass. You want to know a special interaction? Cheap Shot, the free True Damage when damaging an impaired enemy, only affects one champion before an un-seeable cooldown is put on Cass. If she hits 3 people with Miasma she gets a single Cheap Shot proc on one of them at random. That's a pretty cheap shot in my opinion.

I know you want some high end argument, about how there needs to be an option for Magic Pen or some such thing. But you guys have a serious blind spot here. Do something about poor Cass. She's garbage at this point.

JavelinJoe11/11/2017, 12:12:59 AM3 votes

I feel that games are finishing too quickly now because of rune changes. I get that they were somewhat meant to speed up the game, but not this much.


First with the removal of flat MR runes, many squishy champions (I will stick to ADCs for this post) are being just punished for every single attempt to trade with an AP champion at the early and mid game. MR now only comes from items and the resolve path (and lets be honest, the amount it gives is by far weaker than the AP sorcery gives because it requires MR items to actually benefit anyone).

So while AP champions gain 25 ap from sorcery, the starting MR a squishy ADC could have is 5 plus a temporary 5% when healing. The issue here is that magic penetration is by far easier to get for an AP champion than MR is for an ADC. Most ADCs have ~30 base MR starting. However, we can lower this to ~22 because of the rune Sudden Impact which conditionally gives the champion 8 magic penetration for having mobility or stealth (many AP burst champions do).

item 3020 item 3135 item 3001 and item 3151 are easy items to build second (sometimes first) for many ap champions. item 3156 item 3139 item 3111 are not nearly as easy for ADCs to build before 2 items because of how many require Crit and/or attack speed to deal their intended damage. Rushing these items is almost guaranteed to lose you the lane as an ADC.

Basically, late game scaling ADCs and other squishy champions who cant deal massive amounts of damage in a very fast combo, have a lot of innate sustain, and who also have minimal MR tend to be killed too easily by early game AP champion damage. Champions like Jinx for example.

My suggestion would be to add or change a rune to give about 10 or so flat MR, or to give champions a 10 MR base stat increase.


The other issue I see is how many useful runes (not keystones) benefit early game better than mid-late game. While there are a few good ones (Gathering Storm for example), most optimal runes benefit the early to mid game champions because the ones who could use the late game ones are also late game scaling champions.

Runes like Sudden Impact, Manaflow Band, and Cosmic Insight offer great benefits which start from the very first minute of the game. However others like any of the ones which require takedowns, or time passage, do not benefit the player nearly as much. Sure infinitely scaling damage from Gathering Storm is great, but how often do games last well over 40 minutes (the time when the bonus effectively adds another full item's worth of damage) and it does not benefit the player at all until 10 minutes in.

Basically because the scaling runes are dependent of specific circumstances occurring (game length, takedowns, eyeball collection, etc...) and their rewards are not very impactful once acquired. Nothing says "not worth" like a max bonus of whopping 18 ad/30 ap (seriously it is barely more than half as useful for AD champions than it is for AP champions) after 20 eyeballs. But since games now end quicker, getting all those stacks or reaching those long game times is unlikely making those runes actually even worse off.

My suggestion would be to after 25 minutes, all stacking runes gain half their total required stacks (or complete if you have more than half acquired already). That way the benefits will be reached when they offer an actual boost. Also, start time scaling runes at 0 seconds, not 10 minutes so they impact the game when they are still able to make an impact.

needHymn11/13/2017, 9:38:01 AM3 votes

[deleted]

Śhunpo11/13/2017, 7:32:27 PM3 votes

In my opinion the new runes won't actually fix any problems or make the game any more diverse than it already was. Of course this is taking into account the obvious nerfs to runes that will be coming in over the next few patches.

That said, here are some issues I'm concerned about with the new rune system:

-Magic Pen. is gone -Lack of Magic resist -Runes seem less strategic and more niche than they used to -Some champions suffer from a lack of a proper keystone rune (such as Shyvana) -Lack of armour. The onslaught of armour changes helped, however that round of changes wasn't enough

I'm not complaining, however I am deeply worried about those above issues.

UpDownLeftRightAB11/14/2017, 1:40:32 PM3 votes

I don't like these new runes. They don't seem to be any real choices, it's just free damage. All the defensive ones are terrible that just doing more damage is better. I don't think that these were a good idea and needed another whole season of testing.

GeminiRune11/14/2017, 3:20:21 PM3 votes

I've personally found a liking to Unsealed Spellbook the moment I read about it in the previews a while back. Just having the ability to change your playstyle on a whim is something I've come to make my own craft in. So far I've found my preference in taking Kog bot lane with Flash/Smite, swap out the Smite on first recall/death, itemize somewhat normally, then pick up the Smite again along with a completed jungle item (Bloodrazor) midgame and play either split push, backline or to the untended objectives. At times I get the same old "Why Smite" in champ select but then the game starts and it's pretty much clear.

Kurtius11/15/2017, 5:28:04 AM3 votes

Hey guys,

I have never posted on Riot Boards/Forums, but I felt inclined to speak up about these new runes. I've been a League of Legends player since Season 4. I've watched riot destroy this game slowly for years with Champion imbalances, complex and pointless items and poor patches. The new pre-season runes are a testimony to that. In my opinion they have destroyed the League of Legends experience I used to love. I find myself hating the game now. I've played about 3,500 games in total and the last 50 with the new runes have been enough for me to say, this game will eventually lose it's clientele and it's interest for a majority of light gamers who just want to have fun with friends as well as people who play competitively. Honestly, if I was a riot employee I'd be ashamed of the release of these new runes.

I really hope they rebalance a lot of issues with certain champions and passive rune abilities, but I'm afraid there's just too much damage already done. Thanks for reading.

Gwendolem11/15/2017, 1:14:54 PM3 votes

I have been theory crafting picks for Glacial Augment and i just can't come up with many good reasons to choose it. The slow feels alright, but not great. I feel the same way about Guardian being a cool idea, but just never felt like i should be in Resolve since many protectors are mages of some sort.

Anyway, i was thinking it might be nice to swap the two because i would use Glacial Augment A LOT more on tankier, beefy, champs in the Resolve tree that now get a nice little cc on autos. On the flip side, i also would enjoy giving small shield bonuses to using spells on others in the Inspiration tree.

Just some thoughts on some currently undervalued Keystones.

The Yetii Rider11/13/2017, 1:09:55 AM2 votes

Probably not the best place to put this but it seems like the Runes are bugged in Champ Select, like it will sit on the page that you last used but it might display a different name. I went in to champ select after logging out and it showed me having my jungle tank page selected so I didn't change anything, but when I get into loading screen I see it's got my AP mage page selected (which is what I played last in an ARAM game) but how was I supposed to know that when a different page was selected in champ select?

Warbarry11/17/2017, 10:59:43 PM2 votes

It's a small change I'm requesting, but as a colorblind player, the dark harvest souls is almost invisible in some circumstances. E.g. if I come to tax my laners as I always do when playing jungle (hehe xD), it's tough to see the souls if some is already laying on the ground. If it was possible to make them a brighter red or something, I think a lot of the colorblind players would be satisfied. Thank you :)

redniwediS11/10/2017, 10:28:07 PM2 votes

I really like to play immobile champions. I've been a Garen main since I started in season 1, and I've learned to love Nasus and other champions in the now named Juggernaut class ever since.

Runes do a lot to make Juggernauts feel powerful, but I feel like it does very little to help with their downside. Kiting and chasing have always been interlinked in a way that feels pretty awful when you have to walk at your opponents, and it's no exception now. The amount of tenacity you can currently gain helps quite a bit, but I don't think it alone is enough.

The rune I was most excited for was Unflinching. I was picturing running ghost and finally being able to just run some of those high mobility champs down as they try to kite me. There are situational ways to do that (looking at you Predator) and it honestly feels great. There are a lot of runes that have noticeable impacts on the game and feel really great to use, but I'm honestly having a hard time noticing if Unflinching actually does anything.

The other two choices for it's slot, Demolish and Font of Life, are incredibly noticeable and have a very clear impact. Unflinching doesn't quite fit in and is one of those invisible stat things that are just kind of there. Maybe it needs a buff, or if the stats are fine maybe it needs some kind of visual effect. I don't really know what it needs, but it definitely needs something.

Danni Chimes11/13/2017, 6:00:46 PM2 votes

So does anyone find it absolutely hilarious how one post will say,

"Yo mages have no utility at all! They just aren't good right now!" Then directly under it "Mages are way too dominant they just blow everyone up so easily."

And then the posts where someone says, "matches are ending either too quickly or taking too long."

Da fuq?! How is it both!? That obviously has nothing to do with the runes outright. That's team comp and playstyles. Trying to blame runes on a 19 minute match or a 70 mins match seems like giving runes way too much say.

For the record ive had games seriously last 17 minutes in Seasons 2 - 6. No afks or anything. And just the other week I had a 70+ min match. Old runes. Please people...just sit back and take a breath.

Rey Honchkrow11/10/2017, 9:53:31 PM2 votes

I think we need a damage over time rune. Champions like Malzahar, Rumble, Karthus or Teemo now don't have a rune that truly fits them. There is a secondary rune that burns and has a 20s cooldown, but that's nothing compared to what Deathfire Touch was.

GodKing Thumper11/10/2017, 10:13:26 PM2 votes

Just my opinion, but makes feel like absolute garbage to play as. Especially against anyone that’s an assassin. The loss of armor especially makes it ludicrously difficult to lane against ad champions. Thoughts?

Elohaven11/10/2017, 9:57:16 PM2 votes

I think there should be an option to mix-in more rune varieties. Prior, you could be a squishy Sona who would be deleted by four Jhin crits at level two but still dish out a lot of poke. Now you're more forced to be a lot more passive and deal less damage. Engage supports then take less risk when engaging your ADC as they're tankier and there's a lot less planning.

I also feel that the amount of items AD champs have against AP champs is still an issue that needs to be addressed prior to finalizing Runes Reforged. There are incredible options and varieties for champions using AD but not AP.

Silvarspark11/14/2017, 9:57:02 AM2 votes

Little sidenote on wording of the runes: Please refer to "basic attacks" or "attacks", but not both differently in seperate runes.

Some runes say you need to hit basic attacks and or abilities while other runes talk about hitting attacks or abilities, which can get confusing. It simply raises the question if there's a difference between the two or what is actually meant.

Haku Shadowchild11/30/2017, 3:12:43 PM2 votes

The new runes just make supports "mages" now which suck there is really no support aspect to it I just played a game with a sona on meteor and nothing but ap and one support item...this is not support anymore what is support now getting a Redemption and just going items that do damage? This not a support or a item that does nothing but buff yourself buff other then your team. I miss alot of the old support items because you feel a lot of them was useless please bring back some support items or nerf the runes so support can be more balanced because having another "mage" bottom well your adc is getting chucked ever 15 or 30 sec really sucks. Also one more this can we please get skins from chest cause I have all the champs dude and I'm tired of getting all of them

Be Kind11/17/2017, 12:00:51 PM2 votes

Hello, I am finding it hard to have an enjoyable game now a days with the new changes in runes. To me it seems like once a side starts winning a game, it is over. For example I have played several games once when you start getting 5 vs 1 kills to team ratio. You pretty much have whats needed to take you to the end the game, and which side has the most kills ends up to win the game. It works both ways, and its very hard/impossible to regain whats needed to have a balanced gaming experience.

Now I see players just give up and feed, leave, or not care to be apart of their team, I think these new changes has really discouraged players. When I compare this to the games from before the changes it is a huge difference in a gaming experience, it really was more balanced in the past compared to now.

Jmman11/14/2017, 7:06:46 PM2 votes

A couple of things to point out.

First look at the "AD" trees. Too many things scale. 12% damage here, 10% there. Then if need burst here is some and there is some. If you can cover ANY of the weaknesses. If you have trouble early game take some extra poke. Worried about mages here is a shield. Its like they had AD and assassins in mind when they made them.

The tank ones seem great but they couldn't let me be power like the AD ones out of the gate. (not really scaling like the damage runes.)

Mage tree wtf. two of the three are kinda the same. (couldn't really think of anything different come on.) then the last one what is your mage has a defensive spell.... hard to proc it... Then it seem they are MORE POWER ON NONE AP champs than ap. Its like we need to combine mages and ap support.

Support one is more free things and niche items. Support will take mage or tank then maybe this.

The ratio of AD to AP on champs is not funny. AD has more in many case unless you go only damage. Which if you do a sneeze your direction take 50% of your hp. You buff all AD then made the new system "Best" for AD. Armor pen is easier than AC to build. MR is easier than AP pen to build. So this leaves use were we are kinda at.

What blows my mind is you make ad into a lot of subclass. fighters bruisers divers carries etc.

But all AP users are mages....... maybe this is the problem. If you would have divided them equally and see not all mages are burst we wouldn't be having this issue today. instead all mages are burst. Why give a mana option in the mage tree if every burst mage builds item 3165

We cant go farther until you can realize all tank aren't Galio and all mages aren't Syndra

Player34211/11/2017, 2:10:09 PM2 votes

to guys saying that tanks and their runes are too strong - i wonder if you are right on your mind or just trolling. they get 300-400 hp from their whole tank tree (and 5 armor xD), that's freaking it, that's the whole tree already. this is 1.5 autos from 4.0 attack speed kog maw, much tanks such resilient bro

don't even get me started on comparing resolve to damage trees, because it will get even more painful

WiegrafOfValor11/11/2017, 9:00:14 AM2 votes

I believe damage runes should have base damage reduced, scaling per level removed and were balanced by their multipliers. Also, tank runes should scale with % base armor as well as a better base value. I'll set an example for better understanding.


#ELECTROCUTE:

HOW IT IS: PASSIVE: Basic attacks and damaging abilities generate stacks on enemy champions hit (up to one per action). If 3 stacks are received within a 3 second interval, the target takes 50 - 220 (based on level) (+ 50% bonus AD) (+ 30% AP) Adaptive damage.

Champion lvl 18 with [+000 bonus AD], [+000 AP] = 220 + 0 + 0 = 220 damage.

Champion lvl 10 with [+100 bonus AD], [+100 AP] = 140 + 50 + 30 = 220 damage.

Champion lvl 15 with [+100 bonus AD], [+100 AP] = 190 + 50 + 30 = 280 damage.

Champion lvl 10 with [+200 bonus AD], [+200 AP] = 140 + 100 + 60 = 300 damage.

Champion lvl 18 with [+300 bonus AD], [+300 AP] = 220 + 150 + 90 = 460 damage.

HOW IT SHOULD BE, IN MY OPINION: PASSIVE: Basic attacks and damaging abilities generate stacks on enemy champions hit (up to one per action). If 3 stacks are received within a 3 second interval, the target takes 60 (+ 75% bonus AD) (+ 50% AP) Adaptive damage.

Champion lvl 18 with [+000 bonus AD], [+000 AP] = 60 + 0 + 0 = 60 damage.

Champion lvl 10 with [+100 bonus AD], [+100 AP] = 60 + 75 + 50 = 185 damage.

Champion lvl 15 with [+100 bonus AD], [+100 AP] = 60 + 75 + 60 = 185 damage.

Champion lvl 10 with [+200 bonus AD], [+200 AP] = 60 + 150 + 100 = 310 damage.

Champion lvl 18 with [+300 bonus AD], [+300 AP] = 60 + 225 + 150 = 435 damage.


#IRON SKIN:

PASSIVE: Gain 5 bonus armor. Additionally, you gain 5% armor for 3 seconds whenever you restore at least 20 health, restore health from a consumable or are shielded.

*NEW PASSIVE: Gain 8 bonus armor (+10% BASE armor). Additionally, you gain 20% BASE armor for 5 seconds whenever you would take damage that would reduce you below 25% of your maximum health.

EXAMPLE OF %BASE ARMOR GAIN:

**MALPHITE (10%) LVL 1 / 5 / 10 / 16 / 18: ** 37 (+3) / 48 (+4) / 66 (+6) / 91 (+9) / 101 (+10) **MALPHITE (30%) LVL 1 / 5 / 10 / 16 / 18: ** 37 (+9) / 48 (+12) / 66 (+18) / 91 (+27) / 101 (+30)

**UDYR (10%) LVL 1 / 5 / 10 / 16 / 18: ** 34 (+3) / 46 (+4) / 65 (+6) / 92 (+9) / 102 (+10) **UDYR (30%) LVL 1 / 5 / 10 / 16 / 18: ** 34 (+9) / 46 (+12) / 65 (+18) / 92 (+27) / 102 (+30)

**MISS FORTUNE (10%) LVL 1 / 5 / 10 / 16 / 18: ** 33 (+3) / 42 (+4) / 56 (+5) / 76 (+7) / 84 (+8) **MISS FORTUNE (30%) LVL 1 / 5 / 10 / 16 / 18: ** 33 (+9) / 42 (+12) / 56 (+15) / 76 (+21) / 84 (+24)

Durzaka11/11/2017, 4:32:05 AM2 votes

I think one of the biggest issues I have as a jungler is that almost every single rune that has to do with damage to a champion.

Something like Sudden Impact having a lesser effect when hitting jungle camps would be amazing for making the jungler feel like their runes matter inbetween their ganks.

Amörak11/11/2017, 3:11:09 AM2 votes

Why do you still have to buy rune pages. There is literally no reason for it, you can just change your page in game so why would buying more even matter, it's just time consumption in champ select, seriously this is kind of ridiculous.

DragonShea11/10/2017, 11:51:40 PM2 votes

Having your bonus armor tied to healing is not really a good idea, also the fact that the resistance's you get in the third tier in resolve are not that good unless you take conditioning really shows that they need a buff to be reliable.

Lunar Lunacy11/10/2017, 10:34:50 PM2 votes

I'm more concerned with the fact that people no longer having magic resist or armor runes makes everyone way more vulnerable to being bursted down. Need more defensive options