@Riot Jag, regarding Teemo rework - feedback & suggestions
About 2 weeks ago Riot Jag made a thread with his work on Teemo rework. In there he asked for our feedback and opinions. So there it is, about 800 comments, majority of them being said feedback. Most of it rather unhappy. This rework is, imo, pretty bad. Nerfs everything that was fun about teemo, while pretty much forcefully changing him into weaker on-hit AS champion.
Reason why I'm writing this is because Riots Jag way of replying in the rework thread, where he has picked pointless small questions with very short replies. None of nerf aspects and feedback were touched by him. I don't know Riots Jag, his work (
, rework 
and 
) so far is rather... fine.. ish? I'm just really afraid that he will take any "unhappy" feedback as us stomping on his pride and rather than see it our way, he'd only double down on relasing teemo as is.
Links on the bottom of thread.
Poison dart - moved to passive and nerfed, cause Teemos usually max it first, while passive increases damage per level Q - Blind dart - nerfed base damage and nerfed AP ratio + added rather pointless attack animation on blinded attackers W - Gotta go fast - unchanged (even though it should have been) E - Guerilla Warfare - nerfed old passive invisibility -> camouflage R - Mushrooms - nerfed base damage by 50/75/100 and nerfed AP ratio 0.5 ->0.4
And what Teemo gets for all the nerfs?
- Bonus 50% damage from poison dart/on-hit effects/blind dart on already poisoned targets - this will turn him into ONLY on-hit dart dispenser
- He can carry 5 mushrooms (why would he though? He can carry 3 at a time right now, plus those mushrooms would be weaker)
- Had heavily buffed mana-related stats (which is pointless as he hardly, if ever, had mana issues)
This is a bad rework. Everything that teemo is known and loved for is nerfed. He becomes AA-reliant champion (and i won't be surprised if the outcome of this rework would be moving teemo into ADC position). His mushrooms were ONLY nerfed. Not even once since like 8 years were they directly buffed (beyond small mana/range tweaks).
Teemos invisibility has changed into camouflage. What does that mean? he no longer can hide in brush to make weird plays and dodges. All you have to do is come closer towards teemo to reveal him. Oh but that's not all. His camouflage has ungodly long CD (that refreshes faster while in brush) of 40-50s, upon activation SLOWS HIM only to give attack speed. If you are slowed, you have no ability to position yourself while your enemy is walking.
Poison, as mentioned above is also nerfed. This time the nerf isn't in base/ratios reduction but by locking it behind levels. This ability allows teemo to poke enemy and lasthit better. Teemo maxed it first, just cause it provided alot of benefits, but now before poison will even become usefull your enemies will already be fully built/leveled up, so the effectiveness of posion darts will be alot lower.
His Move Quick ability is almost unaffected by the rework with super minor detail of it no breaking his new camouflage, which means Rioter Jag wants Teemo to use 2 abilities for something that Twitch has in 1 better ability. This ability should have been buffed, as the speed it provides is close to meaningless with all the mobility in the game nowadays.
And finally this rework does NOT fix Teemos issues with mushroom stealth detection and how easily he gets countered by it. Nor the fact teemos most of damage potential still is located in his Blind dart.
Ok, but this isn't only "boo hoo my teemo will be destroyed" thread. I'd like to give my suggestions how I'd see teemo rework:
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Combine Move Quick with Guerilla warfare - Have teemo be fully invisible while in brush or not taking action, while activating teemo gains MS boost, camouflage outside the brush and once camouflage is broken by Teemo by attacking give him AS boost. When being chased gives teemo a chance to run away and outplay opponents. The CD should be increased to 30-40s and also reduce it just tad faster while in brush (not as fast as Riot Jag guerilla warfare suggestion though)
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Reduce Blind dart damage by "decent amount". Why? Because we just made 1 more slot for ability damage. Having teemos whole laning phase relying only on blind dart is pretty bad design. With 1 more usefull ability his overall power will increase.
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Small change for his poison dart passive. Now let poison dart strength "mature" against champions, so if teemo doesn't attack enemy champion for 10-20-30s (CD can be adjusted) his another first poison dart deals bonus damage in DOT. It can be something like max 2-4-6-8% current hp in 4-DOT procs (its gated by levels). Also either remove the poison damage buff or reduce it. It's not needed and forces teemo into 1 on-hit build
-
His mushrooms are overall quite problematic. My idea (which definitely will need improvements) would be: -Mushrooms are camouflaged for the first 10s (with spotting radius of 1 teemo length), rather than become invisible from the start. Their activation time is still 1s -Mushrooms power grows the longer they are alive. They start out weak, but get stronger when left alone for a while. -Mushrooms explode in lingering AOE cloud if either their lifespan ends, or are steppon on in their final life-cycle phase -Increase Mushroom lifespan from 5 minutes to 6-7 (there's a reason for that) -This might not be the best but: Make mushrooms truly, 100% invisible from everything, but if enemy player stays in 1 spot while not taking any actions for 10'ish seconds, let him see mushrooms for a while in his surroundings. This removes the 100% 1-item counter vs teemo, while making it just annoying enough for enemies to spot teemo mushrooms, which makes them usefull (not like you gonna stop for 10s every 20 meters, right?)
Finally His new ability is:... i have no freaking idea. All I know is it should be an ability that:
- has to provide damage (reason why we nerf teemos blind dart)
- has to be synergy for poison darts and maybe mushrooms
- has to help him in teamfights somehow
- has to fit the theme more or less with Teemo the murderous bush wookie scout
It could be something like "stronger poison", once activated makes teemos Passive and Q deal bonus damage (could be the maturing part I mentioned in his passive). Also mushrooms placed while this ability is activated shortens their lifespan, which makes them to mature faster. The lifespan reduction could be about 50% (reason why I asked for longer lifespan of mushrooms). Also mushrooms buffed by "stronger poison" deal bonus damage. Not something game breaking. Just tiny boost, mostly to make his teamfight mushroom throws less of a wasted time (have in mind with my idea mushrooms are weaker at the start, as they need to mature a bit). Finally mushrooms affected by stronger poison glow in red (to makes them easier to distinguish from normal mushrooms)
With this suggestion teemo mushrooms have depth, the ability is usefull and has somewhat okay pro/cons. Teemos poison passive has better use and new E provides synergy for the rest of his kit. Also teemo gets to have ability to push better OR run away better, OR position himself better, but all of that is connected to 1 ability, so if he uses it for pushing, he loses his option to poke or run away.
Obviously this rework idea of mine will definitely have some flaws, but that can be tackled down one at a time :)
Links
- Teemo rework thread: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/fOgfco8Y-teemo-changes-temporarily-on-pbe-for-early-feedback
- Teemo patchnotes history: https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Teemo/History
- Teemo abilities: https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Teemo
