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Why Karma Is a HORRIBLE Rework

SilverSquid·9/19/2017, 3:25:10 PM·42 votes·6,436 views

EDIT: For clarity's sake, I am talking about her 3.5 "relaunch" and I am NOT a proponent of going back to her old self. Quite the contrary. I want Karma to move forward in a more slick and less controversial style than she did back then. I simply use the failures from 5 years ago to reflect upon what makes a good rework and what doesn't. And how Riot improved since then. If you disagree, by all means, please let me know in the comments!

I am not claiming that she is a bad champion. Nor am I going to pretend her old self was perfect. But as a rework, she failed. Let's have a look at what went wrong and is done better today!

However, Lead Champion Designer Meddler, agreeing with her shortcomings, announced that Karma will get some love, probably start of next year (see HERE). I would like to take this opportunity to reflect on Karma and the chances that were missed, and what it can teach us for her upcoming update.

What Even IS a GOOD Rework?

Personally, I expect a GOOD rework to achieve the following:

  • Retain a champion's visual and gameplay identity
  • Build upon existing mechanics and smoothen/improve them
  • Make the champion fun to play and play against (and watch?)

I will argue, that Riot failed on at least 2 of them. Hard. But first things first:

Why The Rework Was Doomed

Simply put; back then, there was no Champ Up Team. Karma was the prototype for the VGUs that we learned to ask for love and enjoy on a regular basis. And Karma was a great candidate. She had a horrible winrate (37%) AND playrate and most people only knew her for the "Karma... who?" joke. Basically, barely anybody would care if something went wrong, but the sky was the limit for her.

Or so they presumably thought.

The rework was badly funded, with both (wo)manpower and time. There was no way Karma's rework could've been great. Eventually, the update even got leaked and they rushed to finish it, with a lot left to desire (like a shielding animation and a dance that's not just half of Shen's dance). However, those were the first babysteps that Riot did at reworking and we all know that the first time usually doesn't go as smooth as one imagines.

https://images8.alphacoders.com/587/thumb-350-587015.png

However, in the last 4.5 years, they got a lot better:

Karma in the Mirror

Preserving Identity is one of the many things that Riot has learned since then. Both visually and in terms of gameplay. These days, Riot is very keen in investigating beforehand what people love about a champion before going to work. But back then... It was a mess. I am not going to pretend I know a lot about visual identity, but I remember how pissed people were. They changed her skincolor, dress, color identity and completely replaced her weapons. The awesome fanweapons got replaced with.... green blobs.

I am personally not opposed to the changing of visual identity, but to my understanding the recent Galio had a similar issue. With Galio too, the mains had troubles recognizing their favourite champion after the rework. But I am not gonna ramble on about something OTHERS HAVE SAID WAY BETTER already.

I know a lot more about Game Design, so I'd rather talk about her kit.

Replacing Instead of Building Upon

Again, it's a mess. Her gameplay was not respected and she changed completely.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/8/87/Inner_Flame_old.png/revision/latest?cb=20160725213759 PASSIVE https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/6/68/Gathering_Fire.png/revision/latest?cb=20130929122919 This got changed from a bait/comeback passive to simple CD reduction. While more healthy and a decent skillcheck, it failed on the thematic front. And it didn't preserve anything.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/a/a3/Heavenly_Wave.png/revision/latest?cb=20160725213825 Q - DAMAGE https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/a/ad/Inner_Flame.png/revision/latest?cb=20130929122920 This changed from a damage cone that could potentially heal to a generic skillshot. Again, better for skillchecks, but worse in thematics & flavour.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/2/2f/Spirit_Bond.png/revision/latest?cb=20160725213843 W - TETHER https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/0/0c/Focused_Resolve.png/revision/latest?cb=20130929122918 Turned from a unique tether touch mechanic to a budget LeBlanc W. If Q was unimaginantive already, this takes the cake. Bonus points for trying to retain her bait nature (I could talk hours why it failed though).

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/0/0c/Soul_Shield.png/revision/latest?cb=20160725213912 E - SHIELD https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/c/c4/Inspire.png/revision/latest?cb=20130929122920 A strong shield that could deal AoE damage turned into a generic enchanter shield. The base spell objectively improved, but shieldbomb used to be the most iconic part of her kit. It stayed for a while (3.5 to 5.10) until it too got removed without proper explanation.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/e/e5/Mantra_old.png/revision/latest?cb=20160725213931 R - MANTRA https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/7/76/Mantra.png/revision/latest?cb=20130929122921 This changed from a secondary ressource that granted OPPOSITE EFFECTS to spells, to pseudo-ult that could get you more of the same. A Heimer Ult copy.

As you can see, her spell ideas & identities were nearly all binned. They exchanged flavour for functionality and killed nearly all of what felt like her. Out goes baiting, duality, karmic feels, positioning demands and her most iconic ability. Even her playstyle changed from bruiser to glasscannon in midlane.

http://memes.ucoz.com/_nw/13/29922471.jpg

Gameplay, Scalings and Playstyle

Karma used to be a battlemage. She would have a heal/shield and deal sustained damage with Q and shieldbomb, while having some low mobility. Her playstyle revolved around constant decision making; Do I spend mantra now or save it up to have two later on? Or spend ALL now and lose my flexiblity? Do I use base Q now or position to get the damage and heal out of it? Do I shieldbomb a minion to hit an enemy or wait till he approaches an ally to make use of the shield? Will he ever apporach though?

The constant decision making at lightning speed was what made Karma feel "wise" and "enlightened" to play. However, today's Karma.... only uses Mantra to enhance a SINGLE spell every time. W for toplane Q for midlane E for botlane That's because Riot botched the scalings. W scales WAY too well with tank stats and poorly with mage stats E profits from support items while the other spells get nothing and Q is Karma's only option to compete with other AP carries in midlane.

There is not much decision making anymore. Just choose a lane and mantra the same spell over and over again. That's not enticing. That's not fun to play, play against or watch. Karma lived off of mantra diversity and the rework killed it, instead of fixing it.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/b/b2/Karma_Rework3.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140618122220

Enhancing Strenghts and Highlighting Weaknesses

Back then Riot tried to solve issues within a kit... in a simple way. If a champion has a glaring weakness: Remove it. Sounds reasonable, but it's all kinds of bad.

Karma, for example, was widely critisized for having no hard CC, which made her fall off hard as a support. Remember this was back then when supports only bought boots and wards! Sooooo Riot just gave her CC. And group protection, group mobility, a reveal, long range (killing another weakness of hers) and.... this completely dilluded her kit.

Champions NEED strenghts and weaknesses to be fun to play and play against. I know today Riot already thinks differently, but Karma suffered greatly from just pushing more and more into her kit, without any direction. She felt mushy. Undefined.

By the way: This kind of thinking was also what pushed ALL enchanters into today's crisis: If everybody gets everything (CC, heal, shield, teamfight ult), only the OP champs are relevant. They fight for the same spot, instead of being tempting for their specific strengths and weaknesses...

https://how2play.pl/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/inspire.jpg

The Worst Part

By using completely generic skillchecks and spells that were already in game (CD recution, generic skillshot, LeBlanc Tether, Enchanter Shield, Heimer Ult), Karma was incredibly hard to make toxic. As such she was never worth Riot's time to adress, as they were busy fixing all the major problems within the game. Karma got shelfed for Riot's mistakes.

I find it amazing, that the Karma fans never completely went away though. They were a dedicated bunch then and it's probably thanks to their great resolve, that they are still around and complaining. One could also argue, that the identity theft of Karma was too huge for them to ever forget. Note: Karma used to have lvl6 abilities Jayce , a shieldbomb Ivern and an ally tether Taric

The Final Countdown

I am not here to blame Riot. Who am I to pretend I never made misstakes. I only ask that people learn from their mistakes. I am sure Riot did. Now please, let's do the same for Karma and do her right this time.

When her time comes, in 4 or 5 months, I not only hope for Riot to be more skillfull and mindful, but I also hope for the Karma community to stand as one, to answer Riot's call, when they ask us what we love about Karma. So they can do their work properly. And both Karma fans and this board can finally get some rest. Hopefully.

Let's get together and do this! Let's discuss in the comments, what we hope for Karma! Non-Karma-mains are especially welcome too!

Thank you for your time

72 Comments

SilverSquid9/19/2017, 3:54:16 PM11 votes

Would someone of the downvoters kindly give me insight into their reasoning? I prefer open discussion over silent dismay.

DunkinNoobs9/20/2017, 7:25:10 AM8 votes

I cannot believe we're still talking about this. I've been playing for 4 seasons now and this rework happened before I started and people are still complaining about it. She's now spent over twice as long in this iteration as she did in the previous one. How much time needs to pass before this becomes the real Karma?

Bârd9/20/2017, 5:26:24 AM4 votes

I disagree that a rework has to maintain a champions gameplay identity.

Remember Poppy's old gameplay identity? "I'm just going to oneshot your carry while being invulnerable. Don't worry though, Janna can still damage me!"

Remember Sion's old gameplay identity? Fucker was a walking nuke.

It's most likely the case for Karma, but not as a general rule. Some of those guys just didn't have an identity worth preserving.

Sohleks9/20/2017, 1:36:15 AM3 votes

Yeah the age of her rework really shows. Karma is mostly just a Q abuse bot when she is competitive. That's most of her dmg and it's hard to justify taking that away from her when the rest of her kit lacks crowd control or immediate peel so her other stuff keeps getting nerfed. It's real bad to play against and Karma's challenge is being relevant later on.

The Soulforged9/19/2017, 10:54:03 PM3 votes

Some changes I really want. Big part of Karma was ability to use abilities on either ally or enemy depending or both depending on if you used r or not. -Ability to use her w on allies, I want the tether in between to be important again. It doesn't need to just do damage. -Shield bombing for damage (make it a legitimate damage source that outdamages her q. -Some way of mantra q helping allies

Of course adding these will lead to nerfs on the other effects of the abilities, but I just want the old feel of her back.

alekzu9/19/2017, 11:17:46 PM3 votes

Whether Karma's rework was horrible or not depends on which rework you base your topic on. If we talk about the 3.5 one I have to disagree as it may have not been a perfect or may I even say good but at least it wasn't "horrible". The 5.10 rework however is something that I do consider horrible and agree with you Silver.

What do I like from the kit that Karma currently has:

  • RW heal and the basic E shield that provides damage mitigation/sustain and mobility
  • the theme of dual dragons
  • one mantra charge but impactful effects

What did I find(as I never had the opportunity to play classic iteration) interesting from the old kit that Karma had:

  • shield bomb
  • interactions with champions who pass trough the tether

I personally have no problems if Karma receives new kit and mechanics and I have no problems if she goes back to her roots. There is but only 1 thing I will never accept and that is the ugly old dress that didn't, doesn't and will not scream Karma. If I never played LoL and saw that dress I would think of yin yang and never in my head would it even occur that the champion is even called or has anything related with Karma. Why even call her Karma if she wears that black and white dress? Unless we wish Karma to be yet again the very first prototype for a champion name change. Yinyang for a starter would be good. Fans are ok and I have nothing against them to return but I am more a fan of the twin dragons as weapons. If Riot however manage to incorporate both, where basic abilities use her fans meanwhile her mantraed abilities use the spiritual power of the twin dragons, I think it would be amazing.

I don't wish to be selfish and I do want to see my fellow brethren who have the same passion for champion as me to get happy and justice but I think that achieving a perfect rework where all fans are satisfied is quite impossible, especially taking into account of how much and what Karma went trough. At the end it will come down on how much are we willing to accept these unsatisfying aspects and how fast are we going to grow on them.

IxtaliKing9/19/2017, 8:36:37 PM3 votes

Hey SilverSquid, are you aware that your Twin Dragons thread with the tons of upvotes has been locked?

Pisces StarChild9/20/2017, 6:15:11 AM2 votes

I think at the moment the only things I miss about old Karma are her skill-shot heal and tether having both ally and enemy functions. New Karma, while many arguments have been made regarding her, actually has a theme that's not as prominent as it should be and that is where I'm hoping Riot will work on. Karma currently can enable her team to catch up to targets ("Karma always catches up to you) or attempt a disengage for her team if they're caught out of position. The problem is that her kit lacks the proper tools for her to be effective in that role they've tried to have her perform in the game. She can do so currently, but pales in comparison to other supports/enchanters/mage-supports whose kits are more well defined to cater to a certain role. I would like to challenge Riot to actually come up with a unique crowd control/utility effect exclusive to her alone to make her stand out from the rest of her colleagues. No gimmicks (like Skarner's zones) but something more like Cass's grounded effect that would differentiate Karma from the rest when they actually look into her.

Warden Karma9/19/2017, 5:12:39 PM2 votes

There was no way Karma's rework could've been great.

I agree, although this one most likely resulted because of the current state of lol (poke mages were meta, no modern support items etc.) and Riots inexperience (as you said) with VGU's. Almost nothing remained from Karma's former character model design (elegant dress, fans, color sheme etc.). Her Kit was a bit better preserved, though it was only because her W and E still had the duality theme on it.

Karma's rework potential is very high. There is so much they can do to make her unique and interesting again - especially nowadays. I would have been happier though, if they went through with the first idea of a small gameplay rework of her and then giving her a full VGU now.

I have to admit, that Karma at least got real legs in her "new" character model ^^' (the old one did not had legs, it only looked like that. Probably because champions were released within2 weeks of each other and you wouldnt see her legs anyway).

These days, Riot is very keen in investigating beforehand what people love about a champion before going to work.

It will be diffucult to satisfy both the old and new Karma players as their themes and gameplay actually are quite different from each other. I am afraid they will just look at her "current" gameplay rather than taking a step back to look at the big picture (what Karma could be). speaking of

I also hope for the Karma community to stand as one

I do so too. But we all know that Karma's Identiy is so fractured that you can find a piece of it nearly in every direction (you can not take away her Q poke because new Karma fans will be sad but the poke mage identity was never meant to be like that for Karma).

When I look at Karma's kit I see a frankenstein version of what old Karma was able to do with her old kit - but now in a different way. I do not say everything is bad but it certainly is "wrongly put together".

to answer Riot's call, when they ask us what we love about Karma.

I am afraid of this one. Not because Riot might not listen at all but because of the potential that they listen to people not so much aware of what Karma was and could be. Those people can easily overshadow the mains and diehards, whose opinion should be respected more imo. I just hope that when this time comes, that more real Karma fans will be there than those who dont really care :/.

And both Karma fans and this board can finally get some rest.

I have been posting and working for a better Karma for the last ... 4 years? It will feel strange when Riot finally does Karma justice. And I am not the only one. I can not imagine the time I will stop producing rework ideas for Karma XD

ZapMyHeart9/19/2017, 11:51:24 PM2 votes

If they want to see how passionate Karma players were, they simply need to read through the 1k+ paged archived thread when Karma was relaunched

Sauce - http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3286685&page=1

The issue with Karma is that she simply lack a focused kit (utility thrown into every ability) or a real identity (unlike her previous battlemage one). They should modernize that battlemage version (like Galio/WW/Urgot) instead of trying to please both the old/new Karma players, as it's not going to work due to her Q. Either she's going to be a long ranged poke/support-type or a battle mage/support-type. There really is no in-between.

inplane9/20/2017, 11:13:06 PM2 votes

You pretty much nailed everything that is wrong about Karma. Bad skill expression, neglected history, and overall terrible treatment. Really wish Riot would listen to her fans rather than making something completely bland because she has so much potential to be an awesome champ. She should have fans as weapons in her eventual rework. That's a part of what makes her interesting.

IxtaliKing9/22/2017, 7:06:32 PM1 votes

Hey SilverSquid, you might wanna get in on this.

Aiko Umesawa6/18/2018, 4:33:22 AM1 votes

Old Karma was amazing and I hope she gets her fans back and a revert, even if a slight one.... :/

imortalone11/22/2018, 1:57:00 PM1 votes

Can karmas W and E switch....???? Also I think her q needs more range if the damage is gone....

like i play leblanc and her stun is basically the same as karams, yet the buttons are different.... also most shields for characters are the w key.... Karam's isn't for whatever reason...

Illabethe11/22/2018, 3:10:27 PM1 votes

Here's my opinion on this thread: A lot of words.

Generally, I write long posts, but here's the problem with this one:

It's biased toward what YOU enjoyed about her well over 4 + years ago.

Just like every other Karma complaint post.

I Played a bit with the R > E Karma era, and I can confirm: It was more broken than the old Sion who was point and click, had 100% Life steal ult, and really could 1 shot people with his W.

While it was jovial to play that version of Karma, where you could turn every team fight into a slaughter simply by pushing R > E, I will never argue it was balanced.

The current Karma can do the job of any other mage if the player playing her is good. She doesn't need the shield bomb. She doesn't even need the upcoming added utility.

The problem is far more rooted in the fact...... most mages play Karma Linearly. They do not actually learn what the champ can do, spam Q or E, and do not rotate well. They think W is a weak spell, and don't efficiently maximize her passive. And most importantly, they don't AUTO ATTACK. (Karma has one of the fastest animation auto attacks in the game, so it's REALLY easy to Orb and add in real damage on her)

The more you cripple yourself throwing Q as a solve all or R >E as a solve all, the more you will have this opinion that Karma never should have been nerfed/reworked.

What I think should be mandatory when playing Karma:

  • Play 80 games in top lane. Learn how to auto attack.

  • Play 100 games as a Karma Jungler. Learn to orb, auto attack, and sustain yourself on a champion with relatively weak base Armor, who has a massive self sustain button and root.

  • Play 20 games as Karma support with a item 3096 . Learn what base mobility increases can do for you, and how to get around minion waves.

  • Play 40 games as Karma support with item 3311 and learn how to sustain your mana, and deal with poke mages and linear pullers.

  • Play 40 games as Karma mid, and learn how to effectively CS with Karma. Most people do NOT keep up with full wave clear champs on Karma, either due to mana mismanagement, or due to never auto attacking.

  • Play 10 games where you buy item 3065

  • Play 10 games where you buy item 3135 first

  • Play 10 games where you buy item 3151

If you can honestly say you kill more with W than Q, you're playing her right. If you are saying Q is your killer, you're probably playing her wrong, and hedging on the few games where you "succeeded" on a nuke build, and the game never went too long. That's not hard to do. But it's also not well rounded play or strategy or utilizing half her kit.

Savage Weeknd3/2/2019, 4:53:21 AM1 votes

I am a karma main and I just want to say.. although I wouldn’t type all that lol, I am very happy that there are other Karma mains that are getting the word out there. I hope karma gets to Q actual twin Dragons.Karma [slayer-pantheon-thumbs] summoner 13

ModEvangele8/22/2019, 8:51:11 PM1 votes

Nami Nami Spooky when long dead threads come back from the grave!

While the art of thread necromancy can be useful in some cases, this unfortunately, is not one of those times. I am putting this poor zombie back gently into that good night.

RIP thread.