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Response to the failed LeBlanc playtest

WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWÆ·11/11/2017, 9:42:16 AM·9 votes·914 views

Preamble:

To those who might not know, Riot ran playtests on some experimental LeBlanc changes. The feedback was negative, so they're scrapping it and considering "faster" ways to change her.

This is a copy of a reply made to Meddler here. I am posting it as a discussion for better visibility.

TO: Riot Meddler

Please give this a thorough read.

Your first instinct when you see "revert" might be to ignore the comment, but hear me out: until you guys find an appropriate solution, why not just revert her to her previous iteration?

  1. New LB has a ton of bugs I assume no one will address because she is being reworked eventually.

  2. New LB's kit is too complex. Because she is balanced around her maximum potential and her skill floor is high, she is too unfriendly for low elo/new players to pick up. Old LB had a simple design while having a high skillcap, which made her rewarding for low and high elo players alike.

  3. New LB lacks predictability. Being able to mimic W at all times ensures an escape, whereas old LB was punishable if W was on CD and Q/E was cast last.

  4. New LB is only made viable by awkward itemization. Building an AD/AP hybrid item feels horrible on an AP assassin mage.

  5. New LB demands too much key input precision. Pressing R locks you out of snapping back to W. Accidentally fat-fingering R twice is extremely punishing when you mean to use R(Q/W/E). Karma and Heimerdinger don't have this issue.

  6. New LB is too slow. This is by-far the greatest point of complaint against new LB. Static delays on W, Sigil cook, and Sigil cooldown remove the smooth, combo-reliant identity of the champion. An increased cooldown on R, the fact R takes two button-presses, and enforcing Q over W max are just some auxiliary factors that further slash the tempo of her gameplay.

  7. New LB has a non-interactive laning phase. The current Q max Pantheon-style laning phase is extremely oppressive against melee champions, since she does not need to use W offensively and can just E if they jump her. It's boring to play against and boring to play as.

  8. New LB lacks tradeoffs. With the old W max and shorter R CD, LB was forced to decide between trading/skirmishing or waveclearing. Each option was punishable: W'ing to trade and potentially getting ganked, CCed, or even out-traded, waveclearing with W-R but not having R for a fight, or saving R and being unable to clear the wave quickly. Each option was exploitable and made playing as/against her interactive.

  9. New LB suffers in an era where shields/burst mitigation are prevalent. Nullifying Orb, Hexdrinker, Sterak's Gage, Death's Dance, and shielding supports make her 1.5s delay brutally pronounced, particularly in teamfights. Old LB had natural/organic time delays with her mark/detonation system that telegraphed her spell rotation (Q/R(Q) telegraphs the use of W or E), and allowed her to match enemies that might burst her in less than 1.5s (i.e. late game ADCs, mages, assassins).

  10. New LB's SFX sucks.

All of these factors, among others, make the current LeBlanc extremely unenjoyable to play. Old LB was not without faults, but she was balanced and enjoyable to play. New LB has been reduced to a state where she feels awful, without being any more healthy to play against (except a static delay, compensated by overblown Sigil damage and unnecessary utility on R). Riot phroxz0n agrees that new LB feels "not so great" to play.

I believe that since nobody on the balance team plays LeBlanc, there is no one to play devil's advocate and there is inadvertent bias against her. From your team's perspective, it's understandable why you oppose a revert:

  • conceding to the demands of players casts weakness and doubt on a team meant to be the conductors of the game.
  • developer time spent on current LB's FX, design, and gameplay would go to waste.
  • the playerbase has adjusted to new LB now, and a revert would force players to re-adjust.
  • mains of Rengar/Fizz/Shaco would be in uproar, demanding the same for their champions.

I can assure you the player merit gained by making her kit simpler/predictable/enjoyable again far outweighs the disadvantages of this change. Let Reddit and the LoL boards be a telltale sign: any discussion about old LB is met with swaths of players reminiscing of old LB's enjoyable playstyle. Even high-elo players sympathized with this sentiment. Compared to the other assassin reworks, there is no doubt that LeBlanc's was of highest controversy. Old LB had pronounced weaknesses (poor waveclear, single-target damage, waveclear + trading spell tied together) that were exploitable. New LB was given power but that was stripped away bit-by-bit, leaving a shell of a clunky champion sitting in balance limbo. A change at this time of year would be well-met since we are in preseason.

Everything in consideration, I ask that you cast aside any pride, any prejudice against LB/LB players, and any visions you may have for the game balance/health in regards to LeBlanc. Even if it's temporary, reverting LB to her old self would show you have the players' best interests in mind.

For that, I know that I as well as many LB enthusiasts would be grateful.

Leblanc

13 Comments

Kringkasteren11/11/2017, 3:22:30 PM4 votes

You just wrote down my exact thouhgts, whish riot would listen. Remember when Bang said that Ninjatabis were too OP, that time they didn't listen and they probably wont now either.

Anonagon11/11/2017, 11:05:40 PM4 votes

Normally I come out vehemently against players of reworked champions who ask for reverts or legacy features, but you have made the best case for a revert that I've ever seen on this forum. You make great points about legitimate gameplay issues caused by her current kit that her old one didn't have. You have my upvote.

Lebłanc Bot11/11/2017, 10:51:33 PM3 votes

I wish riot would just listen to leblanc players and try to take their opinions. Riot better really change the new leblanc we have now because it was a huge failure and some small changes wont cut it.

Bronze 6 Yasuo11/11/2017, 10:58:06 AM1 votes

I hope they ruin her.

Fuck Leblanc.

Poske11/12/2017, 12:25:33 AM1 votes

[{quoted}](name=canker sores,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q2sKEJzf,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-11-11T09:42:16.329+0000)

Preamble:

To those who might not know, Riot ran playtests on some experimental LeBlanc changes. The feedback was negative, so they're scrapping it and considering "faster" ways to change her.

This is a copy of a reply made to Meddler here. I am posting it as a discussion for better visibility.

TO: Riot Meddler

Please give this a thorough read.

Your first instinct when you see "revert" might be to ignore the comment, but hear me out: until you guys find an appropriate solution, why not just revert her to her previous iteration?

Hi Ex #1 Lb world here I have to address some of your innacurate points. Curently I am like top 100 I intend to reclaim #1 lb world status

  1. New LB has a ton of bugs I assume no one will address because she is being reworked eventually.

There are 2 annoying bugs / QOL changed she needs Code her sigil the same way pyroclasm is so that it keeps bouncing if a previous target/minion died from something else She sometimes cannot auto attack when her sigil starts re-jumping wtf is that you have to move in order to AA

  1. New LB's kit is too complex. Because she is balanced around her maximum potential and her skill floor is high, she is too unfriendly for low elo/new players to pick up. Old LB had a simple design while having a high skillcap, which made her rewarding for low and high elo players alike.

I completly agree with that but she doesnt need rework because of this. High elo players can make the same argument about garen. I didnt see this champion in years because he is int pick at my elo

  1. New LB lacks predictability. Being able to mimic W at all times ensures an escape, whereas old LB was punishable if W was on CD and Q/E was cast last.

True this is the biggest strenght she gained and why she received so many nerfs. I am fine with her losing AOE damage for this. They can reduce her distortion speed to

  1. New LB is only made viable by awkward itemization. Building an AD/AP hybrid item feels horrible on an AP assassin mage.

**Typical Le blanc complaining thread you all rush gunblade **and wonder why you are worthless dhasfhsfklhasdiofhas. Check my match history how many gunblades you see. Building gunblade as her core item was never correct

Correct build is revolver > nlr/sheen > sheen/lichbane/ludens > Lichbane/ludens > Protobelt > Voidstaff Try this build and you ll find her more fun. Additional note you dont build sorceres shoes with this build. Ludens + lichbane rush puts you at 398 aether wisp + either of those makes you fast to. Lb generaly doesnt need more then 380 speed

Alt+Rightclick allows he to proc lichbane / revolver. This is WHY YOU NEVER FKING EVER fuse revolver so fking early. Now bind Alt + rightclick to something else for easier use

Gunblade used to be situational swap for proto but now with spellwamp mastery 12.5% going gunblade ever is incorrect granted it was never her core. Sad to see 99% leblancs building her subpar

  1. New LB demands too much key input precision. Pressing R locks you out of snapping back to W. Accidentally fat-fingering R twice is extremely punishing when you mean to use R(Q/W/E). Karma and Heimerdinger don't have this issue.

So does riven your point again? This isnt nessearly a bad thing. League is easy game as far as key input precision goes. We shouldnt rework a champion just because you cant play her. Granted old le blanc didnt need rework to but I prefer this one by like 1-2%

  1. New LB is too slow. This is by-far the greatest point of complaint against new LB. Static delays on W, Sigil cook, and Sigil cooldown remove the smooth, combo-reliant identity of the champion. An increased cooldown on R, the fact R takes two button-presses, and enforcing Q over W max are just some auxiliary factors that further slash the tempo of her gameplay.

I am consistently one shoting people in 0,4 seconds. She is also more Zappy now with her faster distortion (It shouldnt be this fast they can make her less safe by reducing its speed)

With your subpar build yes she can feel delayed. Example instagib combo E>Q>R(Q)>AA and clone AA>W. It should look really smoth. just build her correctly..

  1. New LB has a non-interactive laning phase. The current Q max Pantheon-style laning phase is extremely oppressive against melee champions, since she does not need to use W offensively and can just E if they jump her. It's boring to play against and boring to play as.

Le blanc in generaly can feel hard to interact to BUT DEFINETLY NOT IN LANING PHASE.

  1. New LB lacks tradeoffs. With the old W max and shorter R CD, LB was forced to decide between trading/skirmishing or waveclearing. Each option was punishable: W'ing to trade and potentially getting ganked, CCed, or even out-traded, waveclearing with W-R but not having R for a fight, or saving R and being unable to clear the wave quickly. Each option was exploitable and made playing as/against her interactive.

She doesnt lack trade offs. She is heavly reliant on her distortion CD. She still has to use distortion on a wave. People rarely used her R(W) to clear waves. W was in generaly enough

  1. New LB suffers in an era where shields/burst mitigation are prevalent. Nullifying Orb, Hexdrinker, Sterak's Gage, Death's Dance, and shielding supports make her 1.5s delay brutally pronounced, particularly in teamfights. Old LB had natural/organic time delays with her mark/detonation system that telegraphed her spell rotation (Q/R(Q) telegraphs the use of W or E), and allowed her to match enemies that might burst her in less than 1.5s (i.e. late game ADCs, mages, assassins).

She doesnt suffer if you are good with her. But ADC matching assassin burst is sort of annoying. Nullifying orb is sort of nessesary due to removal of lots of mr runes

  1. New LB's SFX sucks.

whatever

All of these factors, among others, make the current LeBlanc extremely unenjoyable to play. Old LB was not without faults, but she was balanced and enjoyable to play. New LB has been reduced to a state where she feels awful, without being any more healthy to play against (except a static delay, compensated by overblown Sigil damage and unnecessary utility on R). Riot phroxz0n agrees that new LB feels "not so great" to play.

She is unenjoyable to play for you because you do nothing correct with her. From build to combos. Dont make me download any of your games and write essays. Her Popularity speaks for itself

I believe that since nobody on the balance team plays LeBlanc, there is no one to play devil's advocate and there is inadvertent bias against her. From your team's perspective, it's understandable why you oppose a revert:

Then riot is full of liers. They do have le blanc mains. I am certain they do. dont feel like finding an excact post saying that but I have seen it on boards directly from Riot

Mafia LeBlanc11/30/2017, 5:38:26 AM1 votes

The entire OP is absolutely 100% correct. However, the post will not be read or acknowledged by anyone that can do anything to change things.

They refused to listen to feedback before during and after the rework. Almost every single change across the board was extremely unpopular amongst both players of LB and those unfortunate to have to play against her in those disastrous first few months of her rework. From the retarded gimmicks of the either uncontrollable or near instantly self destructing clone, to overloading all of her damage into point and click, she became so much more of a balance nightmare than she ever was before the rework.

They refused to keep the champ's base informed of any of the current changes planned. They had surveys ran for those who played her the most, and despite the outcry of people who almost unilaterally hated the changes, the survey results were never ackowledged nor acted upon.

They have acknowledged that they fudged up the rework but don't know how to fix her. The rework has many core issues, outlined in the OP, and the combination of overloaded waveclear with her passive caused her to eat so many nerfs to her kit that she requires what is essentially a troll build to even be viable.

Not once have they ever put revert on the table, and with the ~70% silver and below vocal majority whining about how she oneshotted a 0/4 twitch and was therefore "OMFG SO OP PLS NERF", there is close to a zero likelihood of it happening. The silver tears would be horrendous and would flood Riot far more than the outcry of a relatively tiny fanbase for a single character.

tl;dr this is life now. After they ruined the first Eve literally because of bad silver players who complained on the forum, I was done.