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Snowballs in ARAM, a troll-free analysis

Xareav·4/29/2015, 6:07:07 PM·23 votes·16,677 views

Some good points were made in a couple of earlier threads regarding snowballs and balance. I'd like to sum them up in a single, hopefully troll-free thread (haha yeah right).

  1. There is a serious problem in ARAM w/ the overwhelming advantage that certain pokers (Ziggs, Lux, Xerath, Sona, etc.) have when played well. This is exasperated by people making smurf accounts and only buying pokers or other ARAM-uber champions. It is worth noting that having a good tank can often trump this, as this data (courtesy of http://lolbuilder.net/news/aram-champion-distribution shows):

Champion Win Rate Play Rate Sona 63.21 1.08 --> POKE, heals, mobility Heimerdinger 63.17 1.62 --> POKE, stun, turrets Kog’Maw 62.74 0.55 --> POKE, ad/ap versatility Ziggs 62.32 0.83 --> DEAR GOD THE POKE, why are people rerolling him?? Galio 61.56 0.28 --> Ult/counterpoke Lux 60.5 1.34 --> Poke Sion 59.16 0.67 --> RAWR Fiddlesticks 58.55 1.32 --> If you don't understand this, you won't understand anything I say. Maokai 57.86 0.42 --> He pokes, he tanks, he dives, he aoe's... why reroll him? Vel’Koz 57.83 0.55 --> Poke and ult. If people learned to use his q it'd be higher.

  1. There are certainly champions that everyone rerolls in ARAM because of the nature of having a single lane. In other words, while there are good champs, there are also very bad ones. You can find lolbuilder's full list of data at the link below, but in brevity here are the Hall of Shame inductees:

Champs with 45% of lower win rates in ARAM (in order): Eve, Akali, Kha'Zix, LeBlanc (which blows my mind), Rek'Sai, Tristana, Aatrox, Fizz, Elise, Lee Sin

I would note that there is a weak correlation between win and play rates. This means that a lot of people just "don't get" some of the champs that are the best at ARAM, or are so concerned with getting poke they overlook (reroll/dodge) things like - gasp - counterpoke. Note that a win rate above 50.00% means that on average, this champ will win in ARAM. People complain about poke, yet reroll diving tanks and other counter-poke. Everyone wants to be the hero with the big stats instead of team players, and this means that lots of less glamorous champs with WINNING records don't get picked. A few excerpts:

Champ_______________Win Rate______Play Rate___Comment Yorick________________54.78________.23 Sejuani_______________50.42________.25________ADC can't get to squishy poker? Dive/stun/ggez Nautilus______________52.86_________.26
Galio ___________61.56OMG.28______This is the fifth highest win rate in ARAM, but no one plays him. Master Yi_____________49.83(wow)_____1.84_____Everyone fears/targets, Yi, but on average he loses.

  1. OMG get to the point n00b. My point is that there really is a problem - ARAM smurfs, poke balance where the pokier team often wins, and champs that simply aren't balanced around the ARAM concept. Snowballs are a viable fix for that, HOWEVER there are a few changes I'd recommend to stop them from utterly dominating every aspect of ARAM play the way they do currently.

A) Range. I think everyone can agree that Blitzcrank has sufficient range for great openers. Slightly more range that Blitz would be fine, but current range is dominating gameplay.

B) Cooldown. 20 seconds. Seriously?? How about 90? That's still significantly lower than all other summoner spells, but it stops EVERY SINGLE PLAY from revolving around snowballs. Now only half of them will.

C) Synergy. This isn't so much a new reason as a justification for the previous two. Blitz, Yi, Katarina, Galio, Malphite... all of the top picks for LotPK have amazing abilities that rely on setting up the perfect moment to use them. Snowball every 20 seconds takes the skill out of the setup and turns Yi into the faceroll champ people think he is.

  1. Snowball fixes ARAM. Poke is no longer the only viable option (though data shows it wasn't before...), and there should be no more GGs at champ selection. But 20 seconds and 999999 range is turning ARAM into LotPK instead of fixing the problem.

Cheers!

67 Comments

RiotL4T3NCY4/30/2015, 9:02:22 PM10 votes

Well thought-out feedback that is nice and easy to read. I love it, good work. ^_^ You're right, poke & sustain are certainly King & Queen on the Howling Abyss. It's a function of the map's shape, where there is simply a lack of strategic options or choices.

Not sure I agree on "tanks often trumping poke" being necessarily supported by that particular data/link you posted. That data shows the 10 most popular champs all having tons of risk-free poke and/or sustain (an interesting indicator of player perception around strong champs on HA). Your point on some champs being overlooked is true though, Galio is VERY strong on HA (he has excellent poke to go with his anti-poke), yet no-one plays him. o.O It's true that in ARAM games with high MMR players, if it can be dragged out long enough, there's occasionally a situation where the tanks can prevail. Those games are the outliers though. Diving deeper on your posted win-rate link (and win-rate is still a terrible way to measure champion strength, but let's entertain it for this example), out of the old 'Top 25' champions in ARAM, 23 had amazing poke and/or sustain. :/

Given that Mark/Dash has only just been implemented, we'll keep a close eye on it and are not against tweaking it at some point if necessary. :D RE some of your tweak suggestions on the Mark/Dash:

Range: The range is intended to be beyond the edge of standard poke, as the spell doesn't reveal its value until activated (damage discussed below). The missile speed is also the slowest in the game (on par with Morgana's Dark Binding yet has a smaller hitbox), so it should be the easiest skillshot in the game to dodge.

Cooldown: This is something we're looking at. I don't see it suddenly becoming a 60sec cooldown, but something slightly longer than now could be in order. It currently sits in the space of "use this spell when it's off cooldown", and we'd like it to be a little closer to, "if we're going to have a fight soonish I might hang onto this". We'll keep an eye on it.

Damage: The damage is designed to be negligible. At the moment it seems to be felt the most at early levels, which is something we could always look at. Really though, dealing 200 dmg every 20sec or so @Lv18 (assuming you even hit) is nothing compared to what a Xerath or Ziggs pumps out every 10sec. Any tweak to the cooldown will be a further nerf to that too. The damage is mostly there so you feel is at least does something and can score those swag snowball kills if they're running away on 45HP.

Initial Draven4/30/2015, 4:41:01 AM7 votes

Snowballs honestly ruin ARAM for me. I could put up with it for a few games when the Poro King game was around, but this is just absurd. Tank teams are always strong and now they also have a 1 screen gap closer? I don't see the balance in that.

Raoeoiku5/6/2015, 9:57:35 PM6 votes

Mark/Dash is simply too strong, it is by far the strongest summoner in HA for any melee champ, as well as many others. Dodging it when people can dash to creeps and then engage means there is very little way of playing around it. I know several players who have played mostly ARAM throughout their entire time playing LoL, myself included. Although the summoner is fun with some champions, it totally ruins most AD and AP poke champions games. They are virtually useless on HA now.

ARAM was not perfectly balanced before, but it was far more balanced than it is since the introduction of mark/dash. I strongly believe its introduction was done far too hastily. Warmogs/Bloodthirster were just introduced, allowing for more sustain and counter play to poke champs. Why not wait and see the impact of these items without Mark/Dash first.

As many have said before, the cooldown on Mark/Dash is ludicrous, the range is insane, the damage is higher than what would be reasonable, and the sight given also provides a lot of extra utility vs many champs. Every other worthwhile summoner is either 180s or more. Mark/Dash is currently available 9-15x as often as these summoners. It just breaks the mode, and makes many players who played predominantly ARAM no longer want to play the game.

Honestly, a 90s cooldown would probably still make it the strongest summoner for any melee champion, including flash. Nobody would ever stand for this summoner being introduced to SR, it just completely changes the balance of the game. Please consider that ARAM is a mode many players love to play, and Mark/Dash makes the mode a complete joke at the moment. There is essentially no place for ADCs or APCs in ARAM anymore, brawlers win every time if played properly.

VasheSky5/5/2015, 5:39:26 AM6 votes

This is my first post, just because I felt that riot just ruined everything I love about ARAM!!!!!!!!!!! Raise cd of snowball to 90+ sec!!!!!!!!!!! I think this is reasonable, shorter then some of the ults, like mulphite, but longer, must longer then now, 20sec? seriously? Alistar, Maokai they are god here. Melees have natural advances in MELEE fighting, and now this becomes too easy for them to come close. This game now becomes totally a troll without any techniques. A good melee is to find the right moment to go in and right spell to use, such as Alistar w+q, but now you don't need all those skills, you just need to ffffffffffffffffffffffffffff every 20 sec!!!!! I'll say, the poke team composition may still have there way to win, but this makes marksman totally useless here!!!!!!!!!! marksman doesn't have strong poke spells, and requires basic attack, and before, I enjoyed to dodge spells and make damage with nice positioning, but now it is impossible here in this ARAM version.

Think about in the future, if this continues, then all marksman will become a necessary reroll option, and this is not fun!!!!!

Dessim84/30/2015, 3:59:03 AM6 votes

Ranged rules ARAM? Has nobody made it past the 20 minute mark here and realized the danger of fighters and tanks?

Señor Karthus4/29/2015, 7:45:38 PM5 votes

Snowballs give finally balance to ARAM. Always ruled by super ranged champs.

Jacccey5/3/2015, 3:10:06 PM4 votes

Thanks to riot... I play a lot of ARAM GAMES. My favourite game mode because no CS, all teamfights, pokers actually need to manage mana, Tanks/Melee actually have a chance to win!!!! cmon! have you rioters actually play this mode seriously? TANKS would have chance to win if you are smart enough

Its all about FUN, fast paced, teamwork. its not about snowballs. this is not ARAM. this is called snowball mode. now.. after 1 one game, all the fun is gone. I wont play it until this feature gets removed/ tweak into a reasonable skill. if you dont change it, well thanks for making to go back to summoner's rift again. I finally have the motivation to learn jungle and guess what? League have SR, dominion, 3v3, aram. now only SR is popular.. you happy now?

Xareav4/30/2015, 2:48:17 PM4 votes

I keep hearing people say, "Just dodge the snowballs." They are skillshots. If you could always dodge all skillshots, you would be the chosen one and champs like Vel'Koz would not exist.

Spera274/30/2015, 11:57:34 PM4 votes

I have played over 1600 ARAM games with my friend, about 5-6 matches each day but now we don't play a single game again till this broken summoner skill either gets removed or massively nerfed. ARAM isn't fun anymore... Your team would lose most fights if it only consists of ranged classes with no tank. I can't count the sheer amount of times my poke team shit on the other team for about 15-20 minutes but could not end the game and then just got demolished by the enemy bruiser team. Now bruisers/tank dominate every phase of the game and having a champ like Ashe or Caitlyn against a Melee team with 5 snowballs just makes you not wanting to play this game anymore. Either remove it or increase the cd, remove the damage, lower the range, don't let it hit minions.

I had an enemy Alistar in one of my game and he did 15k true damage, half of his total damage just with the snowball alone. Add this to the ridiculous utility and gives and say this is balanced...

Dessim85/18/2015, 2:09:04 PM3 votes

I'm not the only one who hates this new hyperaggressive meta and ~11 minute games, am I?

The Fat Toad4/30/2015, 3:50:53 AM3 votes

I like the snowball in ARAM but that cooldown is tooooo skronk. The amount of tank champions now that are just being played like a weird Leblanc is crazy.

Newgeta5/10/2015, 1:16:40 PM3 votes

I play mostly tanks and support in SR for what its worth.

I used to play ARAM with a dozen or so older college buddies. It let the golds, plats and better, play with their bronze and lower friends with no worries about MMR, ELO and whatnot, we played at least 5 games a week.

After the snowball patch we played for a bit and got tired of it, now we dont play and dont get together weekly online.

The spell needs a CD that makes you save it for when you need it, and an option for counterplay during the dash.

Once that's done we all agree we are logging back in.

Until then, our steam libraries are big enough that we wont just play the game (mode0 that we used to use as our social gathering.

Just making some voices heard here, not looking for pitty, just wanted to let you guys know that (in our humble opinion, this is not the same game mode, and the spells as it sits now, is actively lowering its player base.

I know if it effected us this way, it is effecting others similarly.

The spell has potential, its needed in the game mode, but it needs some serious balance adjustments (nerfs) before its practical.

a dish of pasta5/11/2015, 11:02:06 AM3 votes

I'll sneak in to drop my two cents, since it's an interesting topic.

First, early game ARAM problem, in my opinion, isn't engage potential. If your comp has a poke disadvantage, just start with some defensive items, and use minions. Don't engage yet. [Non-topic related random tips, if I may: Enemy team has a Lux? No problem, grab a Rejuvenation Bead, a Null-magic Mantle, Boots and 5 potions. You'll have another Bead worth of levtover money, if you need, plus you'll be already on your way for an Aegis. Ezreal? Just boots and using minions. His w isn't even worth mentioning. Nidalee? Again Null Mantle. Even Negatron, for example if you're Diana, or someone else who would benefit from Abyssal Scepter.] Pokey comps only work early in the game, let's say pre-6. The main reason they keep being on top after that point is because the opposing team gets discouraged as soon as they hear Nidalee + Ezreal. If a lvl10 Amumu gets poked down by a lvl10 Ezreal, it's not really poke's fault. Taking away this by throwing in snowballs is making it impossible for squishy comps to even have a chance early on.

Second, about the usual "just dodge it" that should be the magic solution.

  • Mark/Dash isn't polished enough. Its hitbox is nowhere near its actual size: you get hit by a snowball even when it hasn't touched your character yet.
  • A random enemy Jax, Katarina, Amumu, Trundle, Alistar or whoever you prefer doesn't even need to hit you; dashing to a minion that's near you, and that "didn't dodge" the poro toss, is enough for your HPs bar to quickly fade.
  • Following this previous point, if Jax dashes to a minion, jumps on you and stuns you, dodging any eventual incoming snowball from the rest of his team becomes troublesome.

Third; Dashing makes you untargettable until you're sticked to the target champion. If you're an Udyr with Bear stance active, or if you're a spinning Jax (you can wait up to 3 seconds before Dashing, more than enough to have a stun ready as Jax), or simply an Alistar, the moment you've reached your target with Dash, you can instantly CC it. It's nearly impossible to be stopped, before that happens. You can flash out once in 5 minutes from that, but the same threat is already back after 20 seconds. At max.

As a tank, you don't even need to build Righteous Glory anymore, since you have free engages anyways.

TL;DR for this:

  1. Mark/Dash doesn't solve ARAM issues, since it addresses the wrong ones. Free engages from fog of war weren't really needed.
  2. It doesn't take effort to land a snowball, nor it's "easy" to try and dodge it.
  3. It offers little to no counterplay.

Just to point it out, my favourite ARAM champion has always been Poppy with Heal + Ghost. If I get a Nidalee or a Sona, I try to give them away, because I don't like their playstyle. So no, I'm not crying because I want "poke comps to be on top".

This spell can work indeed, though. Some things I could suggest:

  • Make Mark/Dash available to a maximum of 1/2 people per team.
  • Fix the Snowball object size / hitbox unmatching. (Please do.)
  • Make it blockable by Spellshields/Walls.
  • Alternatively to this, make it deal no damage and not proc passives. I mean, it's already frustrating enough getting hit by one as MF, atleast leave her her speed bonus to try and die under turret. Lol
SlytherinUmbreon4/29/2015, 6:08:37 PM2 votes

Trundle

N0TY0U5/2/2015, 12:09:45 AM2 votes

Despite being the easiest skillshot to dodge, nobody seem to be dodging my snowballs. Maybe because people don't care since it does little damage or they just don't notice it.

A problem I have with snowball nobody mentioned is that it grant make the user invulnerable for a short time. And even if the invulnerability is very short for dodging abilities, it did happen to me.

The best to use it from what I've seen is to catch players out of position, chase peoples, get to the backline and towerdive.

1- Champion shouldn't be invulnerable during dash. 2- The travel time should be slower. Right now it's like "I'm way over ther... poof.. now I'm right in your face". Not only does it give little reaction time but it feel a bit awkward when used since it's so fast. 3- Dash should have an activation range.

Basically make more like normal gapclosers.

Meep Man4/29/2015, 7:39:32 PM2 votes

Alas, the Galio effect. There is next to no reason to not play him, but people still don't.

Lissama4/29/2015, 7:36:30 PM1 votes

I agree with everything. And also

Heimerdinger 63.17 1.62 --> POKE, stun, turrets

Look at his passive. Free aoe heal. That is why Donger op.