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Let's Discuss: Zhonya'd Ults (Fidd, Ken, Morg, etc)

Tnki·5/18/2015, 6:35:53 AM·2 votes·944 views

I would like to hear everyone's views on this. Why is this a good thing to have in League? And why isn't it a good thing to have in League? Consider this, like a point and counterpoint argument. Obviously, it's good for squishy champions who want to build as much damage as possible, without building much defense. This is great for teamfights. But how fun is it to Flash, Push R, then Zhonya's, and just sit back and watch? You aren't actually PLAYING the game. You aren't actually doing anything while Zhonya's is going on, except contemplating your next move. I feel that, in late game, this basically your champions entire role. Wait for a fight to break out, hit R, and wait. By then, your character will have so much damage, that you will just annihilate the enemy team. If they are not set up in such a way to better split push than you, then they will inevitably fall unless you make a big mistake. You can even look at it from a 1v1 standpoint. In the case of Kennen, his ult lasts longer than Zhonya's, doesn't it? So, he ults, Zhonya's, gets out, and if you aren't dead, then he has the movement speed and CC to catch up and finish you. It is 100% required that you have the burst and/or CC to keep him from doing ANYTHING whatsoever. Because if you give him time to push R + Zhonya's, then the fight could very well be his, unless you are super tanky, or have the mobility to get out of his ult, and the mobility to catch him once he's done.

I'm not trying to sound excessively negative. I really do want to hear the positives (from a gameplay balance perspective) in regards to this, just as much as I want to hear the negatives. In my personal opinion, I think it's anti-fun. And it really take away a need for you to have to plan your attack (as the ult/Zhonya's character). It requires an lot of strategy to counter, and typically good team communication too. And I do enjoy playing champions like Fiddlesticks and Morgana, and I do rush Zhonya's on both of them when I play them. But honestly, no matter whether I'm on the giving end or the receiving end, it feels cheap to me.

TLDR: Is Zhonya's/Ulting balanced from a gameplay perspective? Point and Counterpoint.

6 Comments

1000angrybees5/18/2015, 6:46:27 AM2 votes

the thing about it is, if they screw it up, they're sitting ducks for well timed abilities/cc. The amount of times I've gotten away from one of those ults and followed up with cc isnt uncommon. What comes with invulnerability while doing damage comes the after-effect of, well, being vulnerable. I dont think it's that much of a problem considering not many champs can do it, either.

Kouga5/18/2015, 6:57:29 AM2 votes

This question goes beyond simple balancing (not that balance is ever simple) and actually has a LOT to do with specific mechanics, how they function, and ALL the things that changing those mechanics mean.

First let's just make sure we understand a few mechanics (for the sake of thoroughness)

You can't use Zhonya during "channeled" spells (well, you can, but then they stop)

From the Wiki

Channel: Activating a channeled ability will cause the caster to stop moving and begin channeling for a specific duration. These abilities are interrupted by crowd control effects that inhibit casting, namely: airborne, forced action, polymorph, silence, stun and suppression.

The "forced action" can mean Taunts but sometimes forced movement such as pulls will interrupt them as well.

This means that in order to take away "Zhonya Ulting" you would need to either make those ultimates a Channel, or disable them during Zhonya. First let's pretend we're making them Channeled spells.

So let's look at Fiddlesticks.

He has Drain, which is a tethered channel. This means that in order to stop him from damaging/healing, you can either 1) kill him 2) CC him to interrupt the channel or 3) walk out of range of the tether. All of these will stop Drain.

However if he Ult/Zhonyas, then you can not kill him, can not CC him, but you can still walk out of range. So you still have some options available (assuming you're not stunned or feared yourself).

Still, sounds better the first way right? More options for the ever-valuable counterplay. But consider this --

Right now if Fiddle really wants to go all-in on one Champion, his best option is to combo in with his Ult, Fear, silence, and then start draining his target. Stacking all of that damage into a pretty short window.

But if his ultimate was Channel, he could not Ult & Drain at the same time. Instead he'd have to pick one over the other. This would effectively either mess up or lengthen his combo window which could dramatically impact his damage. In short, it'd actually screw him pretty hard in terms of dealing damage. Not to mention that if he DID want to protect himself using Zhonya he's now have to cut off his damage (whether its his AoE ult or his single target drain) in order to go into the stasis.

What about the second option - the ult effect stops during Zhonyas

This is a more viable option if it was decided that there needed to be a change (although I don't think there is, I personally find it acceptable how it is)

However this would still be a net nerf to all of these "Zhonya-Ult" Champions like Kennen and Fiddle. Essentially anytime they Ulted, all the enemy would need to do is focus them. Either they die (and stop dealing damage) or they Zhonya (and stop dealing damage).

That's the whole idea behind the strategy anyway. Kennen goes in and starts ulting - but he's squishy (generally) so the team can either try to scatter or they just turn to explode kennen. If they scatter, he chases. If they fight him, he uses Zhonya, and they all get stunned and take damage. Its a pretty well established strategy and one that I think works pretty well.

basically the zhonya/ult allows either squishy (kennen) or immobile (morgana) champions to put themselves in what would otherwise be dangerous, vulnerable positions.

BluePolarizer5/18/2015, 7:07:59 AM1 votes

Would just like to say that invulnerability item + ulting on a squishy/immobile champion is by no means only in League.

In DOTA there's the infamous BKB+Blink dagger ults on Crystal Maiden, Witch Doctor and Sand King which can wipe entire enemy teams if they stand in it, just like Kennen/Fiddlesticks/Morgana with Zhonya's+Flash can wipe entire teams if you decide to facetank it.

Protip: do not facetank channeled or semi-channeled ults like Fiddlesticks Kennen Morgana KatarinaNunu because they will wreck you.