So what can/should be done to Lee Sin that won't gut him?

DrMarshSwamp·2/4/2015, 5:21:47 PM·1 votes·658 views

So I've been seeing a lot of Lee Sins due to the free rotation, and by now I can understand and sympathize with a majority of the complaints players have about him.

He has stupid amounts of burst (one time I was hit point blank by his Q, was ulted, then he jumped to me and killed me. Other times it was just standard burst combo) and mobility (can ward hop, jump to minions, enemies, can dash to allies or minions).

Lets also not forget his sustain, which is actually pretty damn good.

These are all common complaints, and while I agree with them I rarely see people post solutions or explain what and why a specific part of his kit should be nerfed.

So in the interest of trying to catch Riot's attention with this (however unlikely that is), let us discuss on what parts of his kits need nerfing, and how it should be done so to tone him down while not gutting him entirely.

My Ideas

  1. Remove his Ward Hopping ability.

  2. Either don't allow or lower the health of Safeguard's shield if casted by/for Lee himself.

  3. Have enemies hit by their allies sent flying from Dragon's Rage take reduced damage.

  4. Lower the base damage of Resonating Strike.

11 Comments

Cale0172/4/2015, 5:38:39 PM2 votes

These are all actually solutions that Riot tried that due to the mass QQing of Lee Sin mains last year were quickly reverted. The only change that actually stuck was a slight reduction in his overall passive AS boost, and that his ult lost base damage.

See the issue with Lee isn't his utility, that's where the skill in his kit comes from. Anyone who says he's easy to master is outright lying to you, I'm an avid jungle main and although I've learned how to use him I'm far from being a master. See the issue with Lee Sin's kit is that he has access to so much in combination with some of the highest damage scalings in the game, while also dealing mixed damage so even if one thing won't work another will, and you've got someone who even if you can't master the more mechanically intensive aspects of his kit can still dish out insane amounts of damage playing at the lowest level possible.

Lee Sin's strength shouldn't be in his literal strength, it should be in using his skills to the best of his abilities. Yes, there is a marked difference between a true Lee Sin master and a scrub who's just spamming him for the low level freelo but the fact that he can be spammed at low level to utterly dominate the early and mid game just shows that his skill floor is not as low as one might be led to believe.

His kit makes clearing the jungle almost impossibly easy. He's potent both in his own and counter jungling the enemy's. Two potential gap closers, one of which is a shield and one of which is a high damage execute off of an admittedly easy to land skill shot, both hard CC with his ult's massive knockback and soft CC off his easy to fire EE combo make him as potent with ganks or catching someone out as he is with sustaining in his own jungle.

The high level players, the ones who make all the flashy LC$ plays that Riot so clearly loves, don't need insane damage output on Lee Sin to do well with him. But him having so much damage means that lower leveled players don't need to be Insec to stomp the competition. Pulling back on his damage would be more than enough to balance him out, because as it stands right now he can build a Hydra and then two tank items and keep up in terms of damage with a fighter who's built three damage items but no tank items, giving him more survivability in the mid and late game overall. And it doesn't really matter how hard he falls off in the late game if he's already gotten his team fed and several turrets taken in the early and mid game.

tl;dr Lee doesn't need as much damage as he has to be a strong champion mechanically

Erockandroll2/4/2015, 7:04:16 PM2 votes

He has stupid amounts of burst (one time I was hit point blank by his Q, was ulted, then he jumped to me and killed me. Other times it was just standard burst combo) and mobility (can ward hop, jump to minions, enemies, can dash to allies or minions).

This is where Riot is going to have problems balancing him around both Low Elo and LCS. In the LCS Lee sin can afford to go full fighter/assassin, their team needs them for the team fight, and he needs to survive harass long enough to pressure Objectives.

So the LCS Lee sin might only build his Warrior enchantment. Maybe hex drinker. But otherwise build tankiy. And based on what I keep hearing about his damage, I'm guessing yolo queue is building Tri force, and Hydra on him.

Riot can't balance between the two because of these drastically different builds. The only way they could do that is to nerf the scaling. Removing any possibility of him ever being played as an assassin. (then again, ahri's no longer an assassin so I guess anything could happen.)

SmokingPuffin2/4/2015, 7:15:56 PM2 votes

Lee needs more well defined strengths and weaknesses. Right now he is just pretty good at everything, and that tends to overshadow champions that are really good at one thing and really bad at other things.

My recommendation for Lee is to reduce his burst damage and increase his sustained damage by shifting damage out of Q/E and into his passive. I think he should be more fighter-y and should really want to use the Flurry charges, similar to how Riven really wants to use her Runic Blade charges.

RazorTS2/4/2015, 6:54:12 PM1 votes

absolutely nothing needs to be done, hes fine, even kinda weak. But if you insist lowering range on his spells would work

futuresight232/4/2015, 7:23:09 PM1 votes

The question really with Lee Sin is whether it is going to be possible to balance him to a point where he is not a priority pick in competitive play without making him the worst champion in the game in solo queue (Lee Sin over the past month has the 13th lowest winrate in solo queue at around 46%). Because if he ends up being the worst champ in solo queue, all that really ends up being accomplished is a ton of threads begging for Lee Sin buffs and we'll end up being back where we started.

DrCyanide2/4/2015, 7:38:49 PM1 votes

You can't touch Lee Sin's mobility, it's one of the things that everyone playing as and against Lee Sin knows him for.

What Riot could do is remove any of the following:

  • Shield
  • Lifesteal
  • Spellvamp
  • Truesight
  • Slow

Note that they don't have to remove these things (entirely or partially), simply that these are things that Lee Sin isn't as well known for.

In place of these abilities, I'd suggest they put in some sort of close range AoE damage. Something like Rek'Sai's triple attack, but with more kung-fu oriented animations.

The Pros:

  1. Keeps Lee Sin's iconic mobility
  2. Gives him a weakness (he no longer has everything you could want)
  3. Makes him easier to use at lower elos

The Cons:

  1. Lowers the skill ceiling on Lee Sin (bad for pros)
  2. He's still just as slippery
  3. An easier to master Lee Sin might show up more often than he currently does