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Jhin PBE nerf way to small

Danble·2/16/2017, 9:45:15 PM·2 votes·1,435 views

Why is jhin not getting a harder nerf. Only 0.25 seconds of the slow is absolutely nothing, and it doesn't fix his main issues which make him so strong.

The champion has been in the meta pretty much since his release because he is so stupid overpowered. And according to the recent dev/ update he is supposed to be a successful champion (RIOT are you actually joking????). It's super tiring to see him every game I play in, with his broken ult and W. He has 2 main problems. The first being that it doesn't matter how bad you play as this champ in lane since he will always have his ult and W to engage from super long range and doing an insane amount of damage if he just gets to 2 items. The other problem I have with his ult is how oppressive it is and how badly it punishes you for having a close fight where he just barely survives. He is just as strong as any other adc with his basic abilities as the other adc's do with their ults. So if the fight is close it would seem fair if both left at low HP. BUT NO then there is Jhin who will just ult down the lane with his stupid ability of an ult. So the problem is that it doesn't matter if he is full hp or below 10% hp you get lose either way because of this stupid and overloaded ability.

If you really want to nerf this champion (which I really hope you do because otherwise I have completely lost faith in the balance department). Target his basic abilities. He should be weaker in normal fights because of how strong his ult is after a fight. He should not be able to win normal fights with basic abilities that easily. For some nerf ideas: His passive gives, it him free movement speed on a crit. Building a bit of crit and attack speed he can outrun a hecarim which is just stupid in my opinion, consider lowering the amount of move speed gained per attack speed. Also his passive gives him an insane amount of AD. This just synergises to well with deathfire touch doing more than 40 magic damage per second for 4 seconds. Consider nerfing his AD calculations or reverting the change made a long time ago with his ult and W counting as single target while they are hitting multiple targets. I think his q should be left mostly untouched since it is a very iconic ability and gives you the feel of an artist when you line up the minions to amplify the damage. Only a slight damage nerf of mana nerf, another potential nerf to his q is to decrease the damage of the first cast but increase the amplification damage when it kills a unit. His W is the main problem of his kit excluding his ult. The time he has to line up the root is super long. I get it 4 seconds WOW so interesting, but it's just way too long from a balance perspective. Nerf the damage and time he has to between the enemy getting marked and him being able to root them. And lastly his BROKEN ult. How did this get through balance test without feeling even the tiniest bit oppressive? 0.25 seconds of the slow duration is not enough as I said earlier. The slow isn't only to long but also slows for way too much. This causes a problem since if the enemy only gets hit with one ult shot the rest of Jhin's team can easily engage onto the one player. This ability should get a smaller slow and depending on the size of the slow maybe an even smaller slow duration. Also his ult has an incredibly long time to take all his 4 shots. 10 whole seconds to carefully line up his shots. This is just insanely long. You might say xerath with a similar ult also has a 10 second channel time. What makes jhin different is is that it does execute damage, slows, is a line skillshot and has 4 shots. Xerath's ult only has more shots at level 16, it does less damage than Jhin's ult, does not slow and It only fires at a small target area so it's way easier to miss. So 10 seconds should be brought down lower. 8 sounds about right Hey a multiple of 4 how AMAZING with Jhins passion for that number.

Please consider this Riot when looking at nerfs for Jhin. Because there is a problem with his kit if he has been in the meta for this long with his strong laning phase mid game and late game.

7 Comments

PureSilvrr2/16/2017, 9:52:50 PM2 votes

So should we nerf Xerath and Ziggs for their cc/ long range ults?

Barkingspider732/16/2017, 9:46:53 PM1 votes

And so the circlejerk continues...

masterdragon4812/16/2017, 10:47:30 PM1 votes

First of all, outrun hecarim? That is such a crazy statement I don't even know where to start. Secondly, I'll point out that you need to stop only looking at Jhin at full build and full items. Most champions as crazy when looking at that. To respond to your post directly:

What you are failing to consider is that most games don't get to full build. While it is improving, ADC's are weak as a class right now because their power curves (and therefore effectiveness) is skewed towards late game. Jhin is kinda the epitome of this scaling. Late game isn't a common situation right now (its getting better).

His passive giving a ton of ad is intended. It comes with HUGE disadvantages discussed below. Short version is worse overall objective control, less damage to tanks, disadvantage for majority of lane phase.

Deathfire touch being strong on him is minor; it deals magic damage and Jhin doesn't build Void Staff. At 900 AD, DFT is 548 magic damage with W and R. Less for his Q/E. Reduced by at least 30% for 378 magic damage over time. And that 30% is VERY generous; most people run mr or mr/level blues. And there is mr/level for melees. And lots of MR items in the game. At the end of the day, its not dealing much more than thunderlords would. Or Grasp on a high health champ.

His Q needs to function as it does because it allows for him to last hit with it when reloading (or just between autos). Downside is it costs mana and pushes wave.

I don't see what the problem with the W is. 4 seconds to avoid an ability that, at best, is on a cool down twice that long. That can be blocked by allies. Don't get caught out.

His ultimate is blockable. And shows the opponent exactly where he is. I'd personally like to see the slow removed entirely and let the attacks scale with his passive attack speed (Im not entirely sure if they do or don't now).

To promote discussion:

When you realize that games aren't going to full build all the time, you realize that Jhin has VERY clear counterplay, advantages, and disadvantages along the way to the late game you fear so much. Now, his winrate is quite high at the moment. But lethality being overtuned is a more likely culprit here than Jhin.

At level 1, it takes Jhin 6 seconds to attack 4 times. At level 6, this improves to 5.5 seconds. For 4 ad (assuming Jhin got a bf sword) from his passive. If his opponent got a bf sword also (doesn't even matter what other adc we are talking about) his opponent has significantly higher dps at this stage of the game.

This makes him a poor choice for pushing objectives, be they towers or dragons, because in the early game his passive does not cover the dps disadvantage. If your team would rely on even the early game dps of the adc to contest objectives, Jhin fails badly. Yes, the 4th shot can act as a powerful smite; but Jhin is incapable of rushing down an objective due to his low attack speed (and poorly compensated damage boost in the early game).

The above problem comes from how Jhin's damage is dealt; he bursts more than has sustained dps. This actually ends up making him less effective against health stacking tanks; he doesn't have the consistent dps to shred through them. His high damage attacks are actually more effectively mitigated than the lower damage, more rapid attacks of other adc's.

All of Jhin's abilities push the wave; including his autos (that sounds a little silly). If Jhin wants to last hit, he is going to find himself pushing. Two minions are getting low on health at the same time? Gotta speed up the process by using an auto so that you can fit a last hit auto on each or use Q/W but will pretty much always damage other minions. In addition, Jhin has to choose between using his auto attacks to last hit or CS; a choice no other adc has to make.

That ammo situation makes him worse in trades; knowing Jhin needs to use his 4th shot on a minion means you can push an advantage right afterwards. It is also a decision of Jhin to finish emptying his clip quickly so he has more auto's should a fight break out. Which pushing the lane even more. This leads to situations where opponents can back off before the obvious 4th shot, Jhin be can be exhausted, taunted, or the bullet can be blocked.

He has no escapes outside of being in range to auto a target (exception being his W but that would be a weak argument) and getting a crit.

Bottom line is that Riot seems to realize that Jhin isn't far out of line. They are hitting some of his utility/wave clear (which does get pretty crazy) as a way to tone him down. Especially considering they are tuning lethality again, which will definitely impact Jhin's performance.