attempt to remake 270 page cass board

the primary ideals of the board http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4851396&page=207http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/submit#toolbar-formatting-guide

Quote: Originally Posted by Solumindra View Post We Told you that you were missing the mark over a month ago, BEFORE it went live!!!!

So after we told you she was terrible before she went live, your excuse is you need ANOTHER 2 weeks to fix her!!! You have had over a month, OVER A MONTH! What do you do all day, honestly, you must be hanging out with the freaking lore team drinking coffee! I've never been this upset over a rework. But when the whole community of Cass players tells you you are wrong. She gets the lowest winrate of all champions (Except Azir, who is BRAND NEW and can at least play late game) and a lower pick rate, something is wrong. Hint: It isn't the players it's the rework.

Second: .2 seconds cast on E will help, but not enough to make those numbers and that joke of a buff make her playable AT ALL. She still suffers from the EXACT same problems as before. The stacks are terrible, no one who played her likes them, why did she need a ball of stats. Oh right because you GUTTED her ratios and MADE THE PROBLEM to fix with your new passive. You made your own problem, to fix, with your own passive.....

No one wants her to play like this. No one wants E to be the main source of damage. NO ONE WANTED THIS. I don't know how many times we can tell you this!

We do not want to play stack the Cass tower all game We do not want E to be the main source of damage We do not want a ball of stats over the old passive

We do not want this rework.

Oh you continuing to work on Cass.....I don't know that that statement makes me feel any better. I would trust the interns more at this point, the janitor maybe.

Not to be rude but honestly. Unless you actively thought that ignoring Cass players, Gutting her, making the worst move in her kit the damage potential and STILL nerfing the Ult, and casting time of her Q. You have to be trolling us saying that you "missed your mark" because honestly the only way she could be this bad, is if you did it on purpose.

Sorry for being rude, but being nice to you, and being constructive, has gotten 0 results. Feeling positive about the rework, had gotten 0 results. Waiting a week at a time for 1 post, 0 results. I'm seeing a pattern here. So just to recap. 1 month worth of telling you it's terrible has gotten us.

1. A future bug fix, for her E, that was the original excuse for the rework, and still hasn't happened
2. A Gutting of her kit.
3. A joke of a buff on the PBE.

Seems like some solid work. Quote: Originally Posted by Sir Tiddles View Post I'm sorry Stashu, but I don't think you are truly understanding why so many of us are so upset.

I want to start this off by saying I have a lot invested into Cass. When I first started playing a few years ago, she was the very first champion I liked enough to buy. Desperada Cass was the first skin I ever bought, and for the longest time it was the only skin I even owned because I am a cheap bastard but I thought playing her was so much fun that it was worth it to me.

From the first moment I played her in free week ages ago I loved her, and to this day Cass is -- rather, until this rework went live, was -- my favorite mage and the one I am best at (not saying I'm awesome, just better with her than I am with all other mages).

1. It's not just the numbers. Everyone agrees her numbers are really bad. But that isn't the only reason we are upset. As a several years Cass main, I am so unbelievably upset that absolutely everything about her has changed. Old Cass' core identity was:

• High skill cap, high complexity
• DoT poison mage
• Early-game poker, with power peaking mid game, and late game being strong but out-shined by other mages with either stronger damage or stronger utility.
• Low mobility, with moderate kiting ability with Q+W
• Mid range
• Strong AoE damage, especially in high CC late game fights, and more moderate single target damage compared to ADCs or dedicated single target champs like Fiora or Teemo.
• Primarily a skirmisher and kiter, but when forced into a knife fight would turn around, stun, and spam E and pray you don't get CCed and kill them before your CC wears off. E is your last resort, not your bread and butter.

We are mad because for years these things are why we loved Cass, and you deleted all of these traits. You gave little warning, ignored the incredible amount of resistance before going live, and you are still speaking as if your new direction of poop early game, late game single target hyper carry is a good thing or what we want. It isn't what we want. There are 150+ pages telling you this is not what we want.

2. ...But the numbers really do suck There are a lot of posts floating around with the math, but the short version is that even in the best case scenario with full build and max stacks, new Cass has only a small amount more single target DPS (4% more). Completely ignoring the bat**** insanely gutted early game (reminder, Cass has always had a good early game), I have not heard a single person say they would prefer 4% more single target DPS in exchange for less than 50% of the AoE damage she had before.

3. Updated textures are a major downgrade I'm not joking. I don't care about Mythic, Siren, or the default skin I care about these skins, they look terrible because I don't own them/don't use them. But for the love of God and all that is holy PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE revert Desperada Cass skin. Old Desperada looked amazing, and sure it could use a texture update, but the new version looks totally different. You are changing the color scheme and snake species, and removing a lot of detail from the skin. If you won't revert this skin, PLEASE give me the option of using the old one if you really can't part with this bland and fugly looking new one. Don't get me wrong there are parts of it I like, the jewels on her hands being more defined for example, but the entire awesome color and camo scheme has changed and become far more bland and gross, and the same with the designs for her hat and vest and whips. It is less intricate, and it no longer looks like the deadly diamondback rattler I bought it for.

4. Building stacks is neither fun, nor functional on Cass' kit Let's ignore the fact that the stack cap is exceedingly high. Let's ignore for now that as a longtime Cass player who has always been very aggressive in lane, the earliest I have ever reached max stacks is 30+ minutes, and usually after minute 40. The idea of building stacks to suddenly switch hyper-carry mode "on" just does not work with Cass.

Stacking champs must be able to reliably and consistently gain stacks throughout all stages of the game. They can do this with sustain (Sion), major tank and solid sustain (Nasus), or safe consistent ranged farming (Veigar). Cass does not have the mana sustain to be able to consistently gain stacks from poisoning champs, nor does she have the damage to come anywhere close to winning the trade. She could try farming minions, but that is both extremely slow, and most often results in being zoned and pushed to your turret due to her incredibly terrible new "waveclear". So even if we wanted her to be a stacking champ (we don't), she does not currently have the tools to be able to be a functional stacking champ.

Hyper-carries, on the other hand, need gold. Lots and lots of gold. They have a weaker early game (check), have a best case at full build compared to other champs at full build (check), have extreme killing power to the tune of 1-1.5 seconds to kill a squishy a la Vayne/Koggles/Tristana (definitely no check). To get to this insane damage dealing capability, they need only to be fed kills and farm, and levels don't really matter as much. Constant jungle help force feeding Koggles to a 3 full items at 25 minutes spells doom for the enemy team, and a full build is downright terrifying (this is not at all the case for new Cass). In late game team fights, in addition to killing any squishy very quickly and full tanks not much slower, hyper carries need something else to ensure victory: extreme range (Kog/Tristana), disproportionately strong defenses (Ryze/very farmed Sion, Vlad), target-less dashes (Vayne/Tristana), and/or an avoidance ability like stealth or troll pole (Vayne/Vlad). Cass has none of these traits. She does not have the tools to be an effective hyper carry without further reworking her kit (again, this is not what we want).

Furthermore, even if you are doing well at either stack generating or gold accrual, the fact that you are hard-gated by both of these things means that it is pretty impossible to get to hyper carry damage status regardless of how amazing you are doing and are able to outplay the **** out of the enemy. It does not feel good to still be useless even after your jungler spoon feeds you 3 kills, after which ANY OTHER champion would be able to dominate the lane. But Cass can't, because she is essentially gated by the 40 minute mark due to requiring a full build and 400 stacks by design (let alone the fact the actual numbers are only a 4% increase in single target DPS at this point).

On top of all of that, Cass is required to have an enemy poisoned before spitting out damage. Cass cannot poison an enemy at will, there are cooldowns on Q and W (and with the increased Q cooldown can't even keep a single enemy perma-poisoned without them standing in W). Hyper carries CANNOT function if they are unable to switch targets at will.

5. Increasing delay on Q? Granted, the amount isn't very much, but it is a skill that was already one of the harder ones to land consistently, and having the enemy poisoned is critical to her kit. I don't think any extra delay, even one this small, should have been added -- if for no other reason than the current delay is the one I've been playing with for years. Stashu, I am honestly perplexed why you would increase the spell casting delay on this, especially considering how insane the mobility creep has been over the years. Ahri's true damage ball will hit Cass before the poison cloud hits, and the effective hit box for that spell is a hell of a lot more than Cass' Q. So why make it so that you both can be sitting still, then cast spells at the same time aimed at stationary targets, and then walking to the side at the same time, and Ahri's spell hits you but your spell is delayed so long with such a small hit box that Ahri was able to walk out without being touched. Not to mention the paltry rewards for you landing Cass' Q vs any other poke spell in the game.

6. ...And on top of that increasing the cooldown?? For most champs, increasing the cooldown of a spell isn't too game breaking of a nerf. But for Cass (Q), this marks an incredible breakpoint that she no longer passes, and that is the ability to permanently keep a target poisoned. This has a lot of ramifications, notably this more than negates the MS buff to Q because it happens far less often, and it drastically reduces the DPS you can put out with E because 1/4 of the time you will not be able to fire off an E since the enemy won't be permanently poisoned. To be clear, this means her best case DPS means to wait about an extra 1.5 seconds before firing off another E, assuming you land the next Q. This is not a good decision to have to make -- it doesn't feel good as a Cass player, and it doesn't make sense as it is counter-intuitive to raise your DPS by NOT firing off an ability, despite landing all your spells as your kit's design intended.

7. Casting W and Q is extremely depressing W is an area denial and zoning tool. But without hyperbole I have literally seen champions sit in it for the full duration, because passive health regen + MR runes > old W damage/2. As in, the amount of health never wavered below max for more than a full second.

Having low numbers on instant damage spells feels really bad and isn't good, but DoT spells are negated by MR AND passive health regen. So even if you are technically putting out the same amount of dps, DoT champs do less effective damage. That's one of the reasons why DoT classes in games generally do slightly more DPS, or are easier to get max DPS out of them. Neither is the case for Cass.

Old W was really not a strong damage spell, especially considering nobody ever stood in it for the full 7 seconds (usually 1-2 seconds at most), but it was sort of compensated in late game team fights with lots of CC and multiple champs stood in it for 4+ seconds dealing a solid amount of AoE damage. But any nerf to that W damage, at any stage of the game, makes it not only feel like a futile gesture against a stronger opponent, but also forfeits it's true purpose for existing which is area denial.

A poison pool on the ground needs to do a good amount of damage so the enemy is punished by being zoned or chunked in health.

8. Cass's most satisfying play no longer exists As a longtime Cass main, my absolute favorite way to battle is to drop a W at my feet, let an enemy dash to me, Q them either on the way or once they land, then Zhonya and health up some health from their dash/instant damage from spell vamp, then come out of Zhonya and stun them and mash all spells ASAP until they are dead. But with the damage emphasis on E, this is no longer a valid dueling pattern, and no matter what a melee with any sort of gap closer with **** all over you.

9. Honestly, Cass only needed QoL and bug fixes 150+ pages of rage are a result of how much we loved Cass as she was. Nobody is saying she didn't need tweaking, but this totally changed her identity. Honestly, she only needed the E poison detection changes (and even this was really not that big of a deal, and the DPS increase is VASTLY overestimated by you Stashu) and R bug fixes. That alone would have been enough to give her some increased visibility. Perhaps after some testing she could have used a kiting buff, either increased Q+W speed+slow buffs, or give her the Syndra treatment and let her cast spells on the move -- many of us would gladly trade a bit of damage for that.

The entire focus of this rework seems predicated on the outdated notion that Cass was game breakingly oppressive in the early game. But that hasn't been remotely true since season 2. With the league of mobility creep, Cass has always struggled against a large number of common mid champs (Yasuo, Fizz, Kassadin, Leblanc, Khaz when that was a thing, Akali, Diana, Talon, Zed, Ahri) and also against the strong pokers with defensive steroids or sustain or range (Swain, Orianna, Xerath, AP Koggles)

Oh, and also remove the cast time on the ult. It is insane how telegraphed and delayed it is, especially when compared to the reliability of a 900 range Tibbers AoE stun.

[QUOTE=Zileas;3470475]*

[B]Or We Could **** the Player!!1111oneoneone[/B] This is where you straight up screw over the player, usually with dramatic flair, or maybe just try to make the player feel crappy in a way that isn't contributing to the fun of the game. These range in severity, but examples usually are spawned because the designer is a pretentious wanker who likes to show what a smart dude he is and how stupid the player is. I do not respect designers who engage in this pattern intentionally, and encourage any design lead out there to immediately fire any of your staff that does. I do understand that it can happen inadvertently

[/QUOTE]

what is this rework but this. also will only have acess to the board every wed.