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Is Quinn's kit (or her thematic design) really conductive to an adc role

Tygger7·8/11/2015, 1:56:38 AM·8 votes·7,579 views

TLDR; I play Quinn top, and have notice somethings that affect her when played as an adc. Namely, Vault's unreliability and dangerousness, and Valor's kit not being the best for an adc. So, are Quinn and Valor really ad carries or is their kit better tuned for a solo lane? Also, would a potential rework be better suited to a solo or duo lane?

Quinn for a while now has been one of my mains and I love her to death. However, recently I have been thinking as to why is she one of the least played marksman in league. I view her kit as being extremely well balanced, with each skill having offensive/defensive uses and trade-offs for both. Of course, this view of mine comes from a solo lane bias, (I mostly play her top). When I play her in a duo lane as an adc I notice, three glaring problems that prevent her from performing well in the role.

  • First, at the top levels of play vault's (her E) offensive uses leaves her too vulnerable to counters to be used reliably.
  • Second, Valor (her ult) has his kit and damage profile tuned in such a way as to create a conflict in play styles.
  • Lastly, Valor as an ability on an adc presents too much risk to a character who's damage relies on auto-attacks.

So, let me explain what I mean for each of these points

  • Vault for Quinn is one of her main damage points, as it applies her passive to her target. However, by using vault it opens Quinn to being interrupted mid vault and being left dangerously close to the enemy laners. A feat that is more easily done at higher levels, due to better reaction time, etc. What's more is that vault's defensive uses can also allow Quinn to be easily interrupted and killed. Vault also makes it easy for champions with auto-attack CC, such as Leona's Q, almost always connect should Vault be used on them. These vulnerabilities in vault's uses make it harder for Quinn to thrive in a duo lane environment.
  • The disparity in Valor's damage profile and kit comes in that his kit without numbers reads almost like an assassin's, but with numbers appear (and play) like a melee auto-attack carry. This disparity means that one wants to use Valor's kit for burst to eliminate a single target, but also wants to use it for the extra auto-attack carry potential.
  • As for Valor's risk being too high for an adc is the simple fact that his kit is tuned to be focused on auto-attacks and that he is melee. Yet, Valor has none of the tools that other melee auto-attack carries have to be able to reliably get off their damage. (Such, as alpha strike, wind-wall, or undying rage).

All this adds up to the fact that I do not believe that Quinn fits into the adc role, and that is possibly why she is one of the least played adc's in the game. What I want to ask of the community is whether or not Quinn, and her kit, are conductive to the adc role, or is she better played in a solo lane? And, if there is a potential rework, or kit change for Quinn, should Riot focus on her as an adc or as a solo lane marksman?

32 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoir8/11/2015, 4:16:14 AM18 votes

Hi Tygger7, thanks for the thoughts on Quinn.

Quinn is a bit of an oddball, in that identifying what lane she belongs in isn't an easy task. However, being an adc and being played in a solo lane are not necessarily mutually exclusive, as we have seen from some other guys like Ezreal, Varus, and occasionally Corki being played in solo lanes.

If the meta were ever to shift away from marksman in a duo lane, Quinn's value would probably be a lot higher, but that hasn't been the case for quite a long time, so it's hard to say with certainty if that's ever going to come back.

It would probably be the safest thing for us to figure out what is unique and/or cool about Quinn and see how we can amplify that and make it something useful that teams care about having. If we could make "ranged carry that becomes melee carry" provide a different output that you wouldn't just get from another melee carry, then that would probably serve the character well. If we couldn't, we'd probably have to look to other facets of Quinn to emphasize as her cool and uniquely powerful thing(s).

bad manner kid8/11/2015, 3:50:54 AM3 votes

Save Quinn Threads: ... Lots of useful bug info ... Lots of great ideas for how to balance her reliably ... Lots of constructive ideas to fix her existing abilities functionality

Riot 2013: ... Try her out for awhile.

Riot 2014: ... We're working on it. (Some very minor QoL fixes)

Riot 2015: ... Check out all these new fun champions!

Lex Lazurite8/12/2015, 6:25:31 PM3 votes

Thoughts on Quinn and Valor and where they fit into League of Legends:

First off, Quinn is my favorite champion and she was the first champion released after I starting playing the game. I instantly fell in love with the uniqueness of her kit. But, the years I've been playing her I began to see flaws in her play style.

  • Quinn- I believe her strengths lie in her Utility as a marksman. The ability to cripple other adcs along with the self-peel of her vault. But, with her kit not being as reliable throughout the game is very problematic for her, especially when it comes to team fighting. This is solely the reason why I play Quinn more defensively while waiting for valor to mark targets (like Valor's support).

  • ** Valor**- In this Tag-team duo, I see Valor as the "real" champion. 75% of the time, I'm making the play/pick as the bird. Utilizing him as a mobile assassin, often instantly killing squish targets from 100 to 0 in one second. Although, I play Valor this way his kit seems as if he would be a melee-carry but does not possess the needed qualities it takes for a melee-carry thrive.

These discrepancies:

  1. Lack of ability reliability (vault, passive procs, melee kit qualities)
  2. Lack of dual-style synergy (Quinn and valor are fighting together, SURE, but where is the emphasis in this Duo?)

Lastly, Quinn & Valor IMO should be reworked into a ranged assassin/light fighter with: Quinn's kit focused around Vision and Utility (w/ strength in DPS) and Valor's kit focused on Mobility and Damage (w/ strength in burst)

Uperior8/11/2015, 5:29:40 AM3 votes

Maybe make her untargetable during Vault?

I mean, I have seen a LOT of bugs crop up when she gets attacked during it. Maybe it would help her out to have that kind of option :)

Wuldin8/12/2015, 3:38:51 PM2 votes

Quinn's value and strength lies with her utility.

I've played her top, bot, and a few times mid. She doesn't need to identify with a lane, because Quinn's kit allows her to thrive with or without a support. It's this unique disregard for the meta that has allowed her to accumulate a cult following.

That being said, Quinn's kit could really use a good dose of "quality-of-life" improvements. (Smoothing out her passive and auto-attack responsiveness)

Passive -Nothing new that I want to add that hasn't been mentioned by everyone else

Q: Blinding Assault -Good the way it is :)

W: Heightened Senses -Boring. (Just like Garen's W)

Don't get me wrong, the passive part is amazing. The bonus MS and AS is a good trade-off for Quinn's low-ish range, allowing her to duck in and out of poke range and helping her get double procs with vault. The active is the boring part.

Here are some additional effects that can be added to make this spell more than just an anti-face check.

~ Valor marks champions that were revealed by the vision. Quinn knows Garen's waiting in the bush, but Valor doesn't seem to get the message. ~ Heightened Senses reveals stealth, or has Valor mark the closest steathed champion. This helps Quinn deal with other assassins because of her lack of skill-shot spam. ~ Activating W instantly gives Quinn the bonus MS and AS for a short duration. (Wouldn't be necessary if Valor AI was a bit smarter). ~ Better vision in bird form, maybe.

Of course I'm not asking for all of these to be implemented, that's crazy. But having W be more than just a weak clairvoyance would certainly increase it's utility.

E: Vault -The bread and butter (and bird food) of her kit

Hands down the coolest, most bad-ass dash in the game. It defines Quinn as the ADC/Bruiser hybrid that she is. This is the spell that reminds us that Quinn is nothing without her homie Valor. However Quinn is also most vulnerable when using Vault. Now a lot of players suggest that Quinn be invulnerable during her dash, but I think that leave no room for counter-play. It would also massively increase her defensive power. Quinn should not be able to survive a Karthus ult by vaulting a minion (Fizz 2.0).

Instead, simply increasing the speed of the dash will give similar effects. This not only makes it harder for her to be grabbed, it also makes it a better offensive displacement spell for canceling enemy ults and channels.

R: Tag Team -Situational awareness!

Not a "Press R to win game" spell. But it is the go-to spell to delete lone ADCs (and junglers who want one more camp before they recall).

The only problem I got with the spell is the Skystrke part being confusing on when the damage actually hits. (I think it's instant, but it doesn't feel instant)

And because shape-shift champions like Nidalee and Jayce exist, it's a little unfair that Quinn has shared cool-downs. But hey, it's even more unfair for Quinn to have a double-blind (I mean it's also unfair to Valor; he needs his 7 seconds).

Personally, I think it makes sense to have Vault not on shared cool-down because Valor vaulting shouldn't cause Quinn to become unable to. It's logical for the other abilities to be shared though.

I'm glad Riot is working on Quinn (especially with the new skin) and I thought I should at least put this out here and try to contribute some thoughts (I am a bit late to the party though). I'm sure all the Quinn players out there are really stoked. I know I am :)

Cheeseyoger8/11/2015, 2:05:01 AM2 votes

I think you've hit it exactly on. I don't believe Quinn was ever meant to be an adc. Ever since she came out, I never managed to get her kit to work for me, so I'm not the best one to say what she's great at, but she really does FEEL more like a ranged fighter than a marksman AD carry. She kind of reminds me of a strange combination of Wukong and Teemo, maybe with a sprinkle of hammer form Jayce. All noticeably sharing top lane as a viable position.

Ralantha8/12/2015, 1:31:46 PM2 votes

My bf loves Quinn, so when we go bot lane together I usually pick a poke/kill champ (Zyra or Morg) because at level 2 with the right snare, he can get first blood and snowball a bit. The biggest issue I have is when Quinn turns into Valor, everything has to be up for his abilities in order to be a proper execute. I would like to see everything reset when Valor is activated.

dragonboytsubasa8/12/2015, 3:52:27 PM1 votes

I definitely agree that Quinn needs some buffs although she is sort of in a good place. My main concerns are the reliability of her passive, the cooldown of her ult, Valor's survivability during ult and Quinn's late-game potential. I have some suggestions that I wanted to share, hope you like them -

For Quinn's passive I was thinking either - 1.) Quinn's first basic attack against any unit additionally deals the passive damage, and the passive cannot be triggered on the same target for the next 5 seconds unless Quinn Vaults onto them. 2.) Valor acts like Lulu's Pix and deals additional damage to a target after an auto attack by Quinn or the use of her skills. As Valor the passive would change to Valor dealing 2 basic attacks simultaneously at 0.75 > 0.8 > 0.85 x total AD each (Scaling each time Quinn's ult is levelled up), like Master Yi's double strike. OR 3.) Remove her current passive altogether and replace it with critical strikes dealing an additional 10 > 15 > 20 > 25 > 30% additional damage (Scaling as Quinn levels up), with BOTH Blinding Assault and Vault being able to critically strike. This additional damage can stack with item 3031 and runes.

For the cooldown on Quinn's ult I remember seeing notes on tentative changes to the way her ult would work, and I really liked that idea. If Quinn does go that route it would mean Skystrike would be gone, so I was thinking that damage could still be part of their kit, by transferring it to Valor's auto attacks dealing additional damage to the target based on how much health they are missing.

Valor's survivability was another concern of mine, especially as he can't contribute to a team-fight unless he finds a target he can pick off - one reason being his blind cannot repel all damage (only non-true auto attack damage). So I was thinking for that either - 1.) Basic attacks reduce the cooldown of Vault by 1 second (As both Quinn and Valor) and Valor becomes untargetable during the dash from Vault. 2.) Kills and Assists refresh the cooldown of Vault and as a passive Valor gains additional life-steal based on his target's current health (like an eagle eating its prey, more meat more health, less meat less health). OR some combination of both.

My final concern is Quinn's late game potential, sure she easily 1-2 shots squishier champions with good use of her passive but as champions (especially tanks) gain more health and get tankier not even a Last Whisper helps her deal a good amount of damage to them. So I was thinking to help better her late-game she can have any, some or all of these additional buffs - 1.) Blinding Assault now applies Harrier to all targets struck. 2.) Blinding Assault additionally applies on-hit effects (e.g. Sheen, Statikk Shiv, Devourer). 4.) My 3rd suggestion for her passive. 5.) Overall better damage scaling. 6.) During the movement speed buff from Heightened Senses, Quinn's autoattacks gain additional damage and armour penetration based on Heightened Senses' current level (I mean come on, her bow starts glowing during the buff. This damage buff shouldn't be as much as her passive though). Valor also gains additional damage and armour penetration in his autoattacks as Heighteneed Senses is levelled up. 7.) A passive for Valor that either helps his survivability or damage.

So what do you guys think?

YCitizenSnipsY8/11/2015, 4:14:06 AM1 votes

You play Quinn top lane... ...I don't like you.

But I am not opposed to seeing Quinn buffed in a manor that makes her better in the bot lane, and maybe mid. What would you recommend for buffs that benefit her better for bot lane play? Faster vault, have it scale with a stat, similar to Yasuo's Q? Maybe Give valor some type of defense like how graves passive does.

Anonagon8/11/2015, 3:54:33 AM1 votes

I'm in a game so I'll be back here in a while to expand but I'll just say right now that Quinn as a design, a concept, and to an extent how she already exists in the game is as an assassin, and there are a couple of fairly simple things riot could do to make her more satisfying, mainly as an assassin but also partially as an adc

Tsuol Akussa8/11/2015, 2:31:17 AM1 votes

I can get behind that, though tbh, I personally view her as a more fun version of Vayne, with maybe not harder mechanics, but requires more decision making. Because she has a nice bit of synergy with her kit, it also opens the door to, as you've already stated, offensive, and defensive uses in her play style. She can be a very strong bot lane counter pick for that very reason for someone like Draven Twitch Kalista in a short term trade, She can deny cs with ease, get quick vision for someone warding, get caught out by a zenith blade/Cait netting away to safety cast that vault (hopefully during casting animation) and hope for the best. Her bot lane position isn't so much because she is a true adc, but more that she is a decent counter pick to a lot of in meta champs right now.

I know this reply kinda detoured away from is she is an adc in design or not, but well the answer is kind of a yes and no. She is, but at the same time Quinn shines in multiple roles thanks to her synergy is really all, which changes her overall position making her something more than an adc. She is simply an adc designed to shine in duels, while making sure she can keep herself safe. all in all her kit actually flows quite nicely with her identity.

Eyrgos8/11/2015, 6:38:32 AM1 votes

DISCLAIMER: to readers, I'm aware any buffs should require evaluation as far as parallel nerfing is concerned (as it is, I'm of the belief that she's currently, well balanced--barring some TLC & QoL adjustments/tweaks).

The wind-up on her Harrier auto hurts my soul & it's far too easy to cancel, don't you think? You can literally take steps after it's gone off & it'll cancel/disappear mid-max range.

Also, what do you think about giving Valor W "lingering vision on revealed enemy champions for X seconds," after the big reveal?

If you think about it, Valor already loses the lingering vision mechanic from the form costing him Harrier marking.

Additionally, what do you think about removing the actual Harrier mark bonus from Vault & simply having her fire off a Harrier'd auto as she flips back (besides the fact that this would be incredibly badass)?

Vault applying a Harrier mark interferes with her passive Harrier, further gating its use-viability (which, we have enough of that already with the risk-reward of getting snagged with it) without potentially sacrificing a passively applied Harrier mark.

In other words, you can gimp yourself by giving up your passive Harrier to Vault (overwriting the passive in many instances) or gimp yourself by not Vaulting simply because you aren't sure how soon or effectively your passive Harrier will take effect.

As well, what about re-prioritizing Harrier marking to: Large Monsters>Enemy Champions>Small Monsters>Large Minions>Small Minions?

It really hurts her jungle-game & objective-capping capabilities having small monsters equal in priority... also, an enemy champion coming near can also spoil your ability to cap that large monster you were working on--I think it best to put Large Monsters ahead of Enemy Champions for this reason... however, those two could work in reverse, looking at the alternative paradigm (counter-jungling/chunking away a pesky enemy Champion who's trying to get all up on your biznass)... making them equal in priority may do but I despise the random-factor.

Lastly, how about something visual to indicate when a Large Monster or Enemy Champion is within range to be detected/marked by Harrier?

Since her range is low, you want to be as far as possible a lot of the time... but that's very ineffective, as skirting that line can cost you the champion mark; it's just too fickle as-is. This would also present an opportunity to give her a tiny, lil bit more particle flavah. A tiny arrow or chit over-head an enemy champion or mark around their hit-box.

Thanks for the consideration & hopeful, ensuing chat!!

Sincerely,

Eyrgos

P.S. TY so much for the changes in 5.6!!! They're incredible, a huge step in the right direction!! I just feel there's more to be done :), do you agree?

[{quoted}](name=Saixos Yewark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k1Et7oHA,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-03-26T23:16:28.225+0000)

Quinns autoattack has got to be one of the most complained things about Quinn, it's horrible and a nightmare and should definitely be changed. I'd compare it to Karthus' old animation.

Yeah, it's plain awful; glad we see eye-to-eye here!

[{quoted}](name=Saixos Yewark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k1Et7oHA,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-03-26T23:16:28.225+0000)

I think the lingering vision is an unnecessary buff, the main reason for the w is its passive and not its active.

It is unnecessary, I don't disagree with you there. The reason I want it is because thematically, it fits perfectly... really immerses that 'bird of prey' aspect of being Valor. As well, it just feels odd that Valor W is the only Valor spell with no add'l functionality. Not only that, it removes functionality (unable to obtain lingering vision via the inability to passively Harrier mark, unlike Quinn).

[{quoted}](name=Saixos Yewark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k1Et7oHA,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-03-26T23:16:28.225+0000)

This would basically make vault an autoattack reset, and it would be a pretty huge Quinn buff. Quinn kind of dances the line between not being viable and being overpowered mainly due to her bugs and small issues, and I think that this would push her over the edge. Plus I think it's a pretty cool part of playing Quinn to keep track of when your harrier applies to prevent interferences.

Missing the boat here, silly! Vault was already given an auto-attack reset on Vault the other day: http://www.reignofgaming.net/news/31081-patch-5-6-notes

"[NEW] GOT THE RESET Now resets Quinn's basic attack timer upon landing."

So, the idea is just to make it less fickle/more reliable & infinitely more awesome... especially since it already does this now lol. Also, I agree with you about her dancing that fine line--please read in the disclaimer that I believe she's very well balanced barring bugs/clunkiness.

[{quoted}](name=Saixos Yewark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k1Et7oHA,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-03-26T23:16:28.225+0000)

I kind of agree with this, the random factor is pretty stupid. But I kind of don't agree with the list you've put up. The way I would do it is simply to give priority to the target Quinn has autoattacked last.

Might I ask why you disagree? I'm just curious, it'll be helpful to obtain that sort of feedback/thought-process. I feel like giving priority to the last target hit could cause way more frustration than good... for instance, say you want to harass someone off Baron before they get too close to steal the final hit but then you want to return to last-hit Baron, only to have procced your Harrier mark onto that pesky enemy champion. Or say you're in a team fight & the enemy tank is bullying you but your top-priority is actually their assassin... you try to push off the enemy tank & then re-focus the assassin, only to have wasted your mark onto the tank. It just seems, hypothetically, far more irritating/nerve-racking than healthy or good for her gameplay-wise.

[{quoted}](name=Saixos Yewark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k1Et7oHA,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-03-26T23:16:28.225+0000)

Finally, her harrier targeting range is the same as her autoattack range. If you can hit it it can be targeted.

I'm aware of this yet but like I mentioned... I skirt that line often & don't want to sacrifice a detection on an enemy champion merely because I stepped out of auto-range for .001 of a second & now it targets a lesser creep instead. Perhaps a countdown on the passive to when it'll apply next would be the best solution (the current cool-down timer doesn't count as Harrier marking doesn't always occur immediately after, even if within range the entire time awaiting it... maybe changing it to where it's guaranteed to pop the moment it comes off CD would be a good direction... you'd know to get into range or the very next time you did that it would occur immediately), so then you know when to weave back within range. Or else (perhaps in addition to), it'd be interesting if her detection were a little beyond her natural AA range & her Harrier auto's actually had bonus range... this would also further help to guarantee landing a Vault follow-up Harrier AA. It's just a thought, not necessarily saying it's the right way to go but it's intriguing to explore, to say the least.

In any case, thank you for the fine critique & good-natured reply!

I hope we get to discuss more & that Meddler stops by!!