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The Role of Niche Items

Zok72·9/13/2014, 5:53:04 PM·15 votes·2,800 views

In response to a question about banner of command on Azir, a rioter said:

The soldiers don't actually have an attack value--they scale with Azir's level and AP. We COULD have made an exception for Banner of Command, but I feel that would have made the item too much of a must-buy. For other pet champions, pets represent a small portion of their damage output. For Azir, it's almost all of his damage. --ZenonTheStoic

If this is the case, I would like to ask you why banner of command exists?

The essential problem here is that banner of command is not a generally useful item. If it offers cost inefficient benefit to most champions and only partial benefit to the champions that can utilize its minion buff (so that it won't be a "must buy") then why is it even available to buy? If a champion for whom banner of command SHOULD be valuable (thematically and gameplay wise) can't use it because it pigeonholes them into buying it, then who can use it?

Or, framed another way, if a niche item must be balanced such that the champions who use it best don't want it more than generally useful items why even have the item in the first place? If banner of command is never more gold efficient than a Rabbadon's Deathcap or a Void Staff EVEN on a champion who has nearly their entire damage output from minions, then what incentive does a champion have to ever buy it (ignoring for a moment the promote active)? This argument also applies to other niche items as well, it just happens that I have a very visible quote about banner of command.

Problematically right now, there is very minimal build diversity for a given champion precisely because of this design philosophy. Niche items are never gold efficient enough to compete with general "core" items leading to very little build diversity. This is especially bad for mages, who have 2 astoundingly efficient damage items (Deathcap, Voidstaff) and one very powerful defensive item that also offers significant offensive power (zhonyas) leading to builds that look like Boots, Cap, Void, Zhonyas, Mana Item (varies depending on champ but rarely varies game to game) and one flex slot. This problem is less prevalent in marksmen, some of whom have the option to build assassin-like (ghostblade/BOTRK) or spell weaving (triforce and possibly manamune or essence reaver) in addition to the standard late-game carry build, but the hypercarries still tend to be locked into IE/(Shiv or PD)/LW. Tank itemization is somewhat flexible depending on the relevant threats of the opposing team and the needs of the champion building them and jungler and fighter itemizations tend to mix two different types of items and are therefore quite varied.

As game designers (rioters or just forum posters, all are welcome to weigh in), what is your take on this issue? Should niche items be buffed into viability? Should more general items be introduced which increase power in different ways (liandry's torment is a strong attempt at this but unfortunately has been balanced around the existence of DOT champions and is therefore too weak to be viable on non-dot champions, just like banner of command)? Should items with strong utility (like Rylai's Crystal Scepter) be introduced to compete with the "core items" to allow champions to opt into a different playstyle? Post your thoughts. Discussion is great, even if you disagree with what I've said here (just keep it polite)

@Ghostcrawler @Morello @Xelnath @ZenonTheStoic

37 Comments

Duke Anax9/13/2014, 7:08:01 PM9 votes

I'm not sure I follow your argument. BoC is balanced around the use of lane minions and I think it actually does well for that purpose. It's a great item on any AP champ that want's to splitpush or defend the lane. Alistar especially likes it.

As such it already is a better than average pick for any champion that has additional minions like Heimer.

Sure a Deathcap or Voidstaff would put more damage on the turrets, but the point of the Banner is that it also increases the damage of the surrounding minion wave.

As for Azir, the rioter above is probably right in that it would be overpowered, but there is actually a more valid issue: Azirs Soldiers aren't even minions. They are spell foci. If Banner of command would be changed for Azir's soldiers, it would mean that Lulu's Pix should use it too.

ChaosThief9/14/2014, 2:05:05 AM3 votes

The banner of command would increase each soldier's ratio by 10.5%, up to 80.5% per soldier. Then plus 40.25% (2 soldiers) And end up with 120.75% AP per auto attack(3 soldier total) Instead of 105%, so yeah it would be too much of a must buy.

And a must buy on ONLY one champion wouldn't exactly be reasonable to keep around. It works on AP pushers and supports, which is good enough.

67chrome9/14/2014, 8:34:18 PM3 votes

If this is the case, I would like to ask you why banner of command exists?

That's...a pretty solid question for them, and I can totally get behind what you're saying.

Also, interactions like this are really irritating, frustrating, and annoying to run into.

If an item says "enhances minions" and it doesn't enhance minions, it's not user-friendly. It adds unnecessary complexity to the the game, and the more exceptions to rules like this their are, the more brutal a game gets to newer players.

Blinds and the block on Fiora and Pantheon also suffer from similar awkwardness (they don't block on-hit effects), as does tenacity/cleanse/QSS/Scimitar against the CC types in pulls, flings, knock-backs, knock-ups, and in the first 2 - suppression.

Hurricane also suffers from this - it doesn't spread sheen procs or any AA modifier that operates like Sheen (such as Caitlyn's Headshot), it can't critically strike, it doesn't spread Kayle's Splash damage (for fairly obvious balance reasons - but still), and overall the on-hit item is barred from spreading a solid 50% of the on-hit effects it potentially could.

Having an item or ability that says "Does X" but then it doesn't do X, is extremely annoying. There's a lot of trial and error in actually getting such things to work - and I'd just rather use something reliable. Looking at the LCS, reliable tends to be the name of the game there as well, as is just using what the pros use.

Bouffon dAnglais9/14/2014, 1:32:14 PM2 votes

I think BoC doesn't work with Azir because he doesn't summon minions. Let me explain- Annie's Tibbers, Elise's Spiderlings, Malzahar's Voidlings, Heimerdinger's turrets, Zyra's Plants, Yorick's Ghouls, are all killable and worth some amount of gold. Azir's Soldiers are untargetable- meaning, you can't attack, deal damage or kill them in any way.

Cloud Potato9/16/2014, 4:55:45 AM2 votes

The item system is currently set up like this: #1: Buy must have items #2: Buy weaker items #3: Buy niche items that may be better than #2

Your problem is that #3 doesn't overtake #1 items. However all this does is add to the number of items that you have to buy and reduce the amount of #2 items you can buy. You could make Ohmwrecker give 120 AP but people will still buy Deathcap every game. If you want niche items to be good you need to change the item system.

An obvious change would be to remove #1 from the list and put the items in #2 and #3. This would change the system to: #1: Buy items that synergise with you #2: Buy other items

This looks better, except it highlights a different problem. If you're Heimerdinger for example you will be buying Banner of Command every game. This essentially means that whenever you see a Heimerdinger in a game, you know he is going to be pushing hard all the time. If you're Heimerdinger, you're stuck being a push bot every game unless you want to be sub optimal. The problem here is that whenever an item is a must buy, it essentially becomes a part of the champion's playstyle.

Let's compare to the must buy items you listed. Deathcap only gives AP, so it doesn't really have an effect on your playstyle. Void Staff gives you a lot more damage, which can make you a burst heavy champion, but otherwise doesn't have much of an effect. Zhonya's gives Armor, but not enough to make much of a difference, and a kickass active, which gives a special type of survivability. Zhonya's is probably the most playstyle impacting item here, but it's special in that it doesn't give you a free pass out of poor positioning unless your team can come rescue you. I don't want to go on too long about how OP or not Zhonya's is, but I don't really think that it changes how you play by that much.

What I'm trying to get at is any item that's a must buy on your champion will change how that champion is played. Many of the current must buy items all give very general boosts which do not greatly impact how a champion plays. Niche items becoming mandatory can cause such changes though, and this is something that needs to be considered. There are many weak and/or niche items that would be detrimental to the game as a whole if they could rival the current strong items. Sword of the Divine would make every AD champion a burst champion. Runaan's would make short range as well as wave clearing ADCs much less viable. Ohmwrecker would signal the end of turrets as a safe haven. Thornmail wouldn't be enough to make ADCs unviable but would mean you need to pick a DPS mage every game.

I would argue that there are several strong items that warp the game right now, such as Grail, but it brings up the question, how important should items be to the state of the game? There isn't a wrong answer here. Strong, unique items creates a world where individual champion picks matter less than the roles your champions fill, due to items having a big impact on how you play. Items being more centered around general stats emphasize your champion's kit more, and makes looking for alternate strengths a big tradeoff. There's also supposedly some middle ground somewhere. Thinking about it, I actually like the first type over the second. It seems to me that items that give you additional effects are less snowbally than stat sticks. Doing more different things as opposed to doing the same things better, if I have to tl;dr this. It's definitely not a simple problem.

Sire Hippington9/14/2014, 12:51:40 AM1 votes

I totally agree with u here, if a niche item has no case in which it is worth more than a general strong item, it either needs buffs or can be removed as it will never see play.

A item can either be nich by beeing usefull in rather specific situations(thornmail vs AA-heavy enemys), or by synergiesing with a certain mechanic(ardent censer) If such an item isn'T effecktive enough(more effecktive than generall items) if used under the speciffic circumstances, something is wrong, which is either the conditions in which the item is effecktive happen to rarly(rageblade, hurricane), or the item is to weak compared to other items even in an optimal case(executioners) A lot off nich items are rather underwhelming as they can be dangerous for balance. A stronger thornmail could eventually make AA reliant champs underpowered as they get countered to hard by a single item, ot a strong executioners could make selfhealing champs like swain or mundo rather useless as it counters them really hard.

In case of banner of command, a buff is rather dificult as the promotion acktive has huge potential. If azir would work with banner of command, he would either be generally be undertuned or a splitpush god, as he already go good waveclear, good zoning, a bonus nuke vs towers, a tower-creating passive and some tools to escape, adding the aura and suppercreep to it might become to much to handle.

But since he's both thematically and gameplaywise the most fitting champ for the Banner, it would be worth to find a way off balancing him around having acces to the Banner

The Hexmage9/13/2014, 7:30:10 PM1 votes

I'm so lazy to write a long comment

Flemman9/13/2014, 7:50:57 PM1 votes

Actually, I think banner of command is a good item only on aram when you play a support or a tank and you lack of pushing abilities. Boosting the creep for a short time is still better than let them die without help due to no pushing power :p

YGW Caspie9/13/2014, 8:40:59 PM1 votes

Niche items are for niche situations, that is their sole purpose. I will explain a few examples since I'm bored, but first I'll list some of these niche items and then I'll go through each one and I'll do it just for you OP because <3. And please if I missed an item let me know.

The niche items are Ardent Censer, Banner of Command, Executioner's Calling, Ohmwrecker, and Twin Shadows.

  1. Ardent Censer *Ardent Censer is 102.9% gold efficient without its passive. Its stat efficiency increases by 34.1% per allied buffed and reaching 239.22% at maximum allies buffed. *

This one is fairly simple, it's good with heals + shields obviously, so Janna makes a great fit especially considering she can shield towers. Probably one of the more used niche items next to Twin Shadows. It's a good item to build on certain supports and pairs well with Zeke's Herald.

  1. Banner of Command *Transforms a nearby siege minion to a more powerful unit. You gain all the gold this unit earns. *

This item is extremely interesting to me.... I can't help but think of how useful it could be if only it had mana regen. Rito pls change the recipe to include mana regen. Anyways back to the topic at hand, this item is really interesting on certain supports like Zyra, or even Annie after the recent changes but it's also useful on other AP supports but I find the lack of mana really problematic. This item is most optimal when built early since the cooldown on it's active is 3 mins, so in order to take advantage of it's active you need it early on. That being said it's a good way to increase your gold income while still grouping with your team, for example you can use promote on a side lane and group mid. This strategy can work very well if you have a good 4 man siege + split push because you can siege mid, use banner on a side lane and split push the remaining lane. You can also pair this item with Ohmwrecker so when you siege a tower with 5 you can promote the cannon and shut down the turret.

  1. Executioner's Calling Man this item.... it sucks. I mean out of all the niche items I would say this is by far the worst. But hey for fun, it's obviously meant to be a counter to high healing champions/team comps. That being said it's inefficient to build on marksman and generally it's just better to have one ignite and use it wisely and/or build morellonomicon on a mage/support.

  2. Ohmwrecker *Ohmwrecker resets the damage increase when disabling the turret and if there are 2 turrets in range, as there are with Nexus Turrets in Summoners' Rift, both turrets are disabled. *

Not many items give HP + AP which are great stats on support mages. It also only costs 2000 gold. I've said this pairs well with Banner but it also serves a few other niche purposes. One is that it's great for helping you dive turrets. The other reason is that shutting down a turret allows your team to siege without a minion wave which is great against heavy wave clear teams like for example ... Ziggs and Anivia. Remember when Ziggs was picked a lot and teams were having trouble closing games because he can just stall forever with his wave clear. Imagine if the support Lulu for example built Ohmwrecker, and they went to siege... a big wave is about to hit the tower and you know Ziggs is going to clear it, so as the wave approaches you can have your tank walk infront tanking a turret shot, and when the 2nd or 3rd turret shot comes out you use Ohmwrecker. This gives you 2.5 seconds to siege which is more than enough to take a tower with 5 teammates.

  1. Twin Shadows

Good item for supports that can be used on mages, it's niche purpose is that it can help scout and reduce facechecking, and it's also good for catching out stragglers. Again another item I wish had a different recipe and stats...for example instead of codex I'd rather have a new basic item that had AP+mana regen, I looked and apparently there isn't one. In any event I'd rather have that over 10% cdr since nearly every support item has CDR.

Tasgal9/13/2014, 6:22:42 PM1 votes

It does seem silly to make an item if you never plan on it being used by anyone. I've only ever seen a Banner of Command built once, and that was in a stomp where the support Zyra decided to trollbuild it and an Ohmwrecker (coincidentally the only time I've seen that built). It seems to me that they want to create interesting item abilities, but at the same time are terrified of what would happen if said items were good. Nobody wants to deal with a Heimerdinger that can use a strong Banner of Command. Your towers simply would cease to be.

At the same time though it's not like anyone else is gonna pick that up. Why would darius ever want BoC? So to counter that they'd need an interesting item for other roles and playstyles that would be strong enough to counter it. If they do that they risk powercreep, and Riot generally prefers to nerf instead of buff. So the end result is them just leaving the item nerfed until they can think of what to do with it, assuming it ever becomes a priority.