Boards›Gameplay

CertainlyT and unhealthy champion design (with poll)

Count Lieberkuhn·4/9/2015, 5:02:13 PM·11 votes·2,086 views

Creating a discussion here, I want to see what peoples' thoughts are on this matter. Sorry for the long post.

I've had this long-time concern about the unhealthy gameplay elements that CertainlyT champions bring to the game. This isn't a rant against CertainlyT as a designer per se, but I think that for all of the positive elements his designs bring to the game (new mechanics etc), they are outweighed by the overall negative impact of his champions from an overall 'fun factor' point of view.

A quick recap on CertainlyT champions:

  • Darius
  • Zyra (co-designer)
  • Thresh
  • Zed
  • Yasuo
  • Kalista

All of these champions have been problematic on release, and with the exception of Darius, all have introduced unique new mechanics to the game. All have had to be significantly nerfed post-release except Kalista, whom I still believe has her inherent issues due to overly binary play (you either have targetted stuns and beat her, or you have skillshots and lose).

CertainlyT champions are fun to play, because they give you a sense of power. You have options, you can make those LCS plays, and you are in control of your own fate and success in the game more than almost any other champion. This makes them fun to play as, but unfun to play against imo, for these reasons:

  • They have overloaded kits, with most skills having either a secondary active component, or a passive component.
  • As a result, the champions usually lack clearly-defined weaknesses
  • This means your success when fighting these champions is based more on the enemy making a mistake, rather than you playing well.

That final point is what really causes issues. Fun gameplay is based around making your own opportunities for success, and then capitalising on them. This makes you feel like you have outwitted and outplayed your opponent. It should also mean that you played to your champion's strengths better than your opponent played to your champion's weaknesses.

Playing against a Zed for example is exhausting if they are competent. When I beat a good Zed player, I don't feel like a boss, I just feel tired. Like I've had a game of dodgeball where only Zed is allowed to throw balls unless he fumbles, and even then I've had to sprint to catch that ball just to have a chance at throwing it back. Compare that to say the Sion remake, who has a ton of very easily-identified strengths and weaknesses.

Also, for a game which really made a name for itself back originally because of its emphasis on skillshot mechanics, to suddenly have Yasuo (windwall) and Kalista (constant dashing) invalidate these with their mechanics seems a bit against the game's design philosophy. Riot have been progressively moving away from targetted skills (particularly those with hard CC) for a long time now, and for good reason as they result in binary gameplay which lacks counterplay. If you intend to follow that design philosophy, you can't have a champion like Kalista who more-or-less requires targetted CC in order to reliably defeat her.

As I said, this isn't a hate post. I believe there are a LOT of issues with CertainlyT's designs to a point where they outweigh the positives, but the positives are there.

  • Thresh for example is a very good support who never feels overwhelmingly oppressive to fight against (after a lot of nerfs at least) due to his hook being easier to dodge than Naut or Blitz's hooks as a result of its slightly longer windup.
  • Kalista's soulbond mechanic has some real merit to it, resulting in some interesting decision-making at the start of the game, and opening up some healthy synergies with under-utilised supports like Alistar.
  • Yasuo using movement as a resource is an interesting idea, but I wish it was used differently. Rather than it just applying a defensive steroid, what if it instead empowered his moves when at maximum flow? You could then make gameplay have much more meaningful peaks and troughs, where Yasuo could build MS items in order to maximise usage of his powerful skills (a bit like Rage), but at the cost of more consistent damage or survivability. Right now it feels like a bonus that was chucked on just because they could, and is more of a nice bonus than an intrinsic part of decision making when playing Yasuo.

CertainlyT, you've got some great ideas, but you need to show some restraint. A champion shouldn't be everyone's power fantasy, because that only works in a single-player environment. Giving free stats results in less viable decision-making when choosing items (Yasuo is forced to get IE & shiv, Kalista is forced to get Runaan's), and most importantly, a champion needs clearly-defined counterplay. Only Darius really has this (easily kited).

tl;dr

  • Being fun to play as doesn't necessarily mean fun to play against
  • His champions put too much control in the hands of the user, not enough in his opponents' hands
  • Lack of clearly-defined counterplay
  • Good mechanics and ideas are drowned out by overloaded kits
  • Mechanics that make skillshots unviable are bad for the game and its current direction

31 Comments

GloriousKaiser4/9/2015, 5:07:46 PM3 votes

I think Darius is his most balanced champion right now. Even with the ult buffs, he doesn't feel overbearing BECAUSE he has counterplay (NOT COUNTER PICKS)

CertainlyT's problem is that his champions counterplay isn't accessible unless you pick a specific champion against them. So it further pushes the idea that games are decided at champion select which they shouldn't be if the former is true.

JChaosMaster4/10/2015, 11:04:47 PM2 votes

But you slow have to work into consideration that Besides CertainlyT's champ who amoung the new released Don't alright fail. Azir is walk talking glitch, Vel'Koz is a mix bag of fail, Bard is... Well the verdict is still not out on him yet but time will tell. However Yuso and Kalista I instantly wanted and bought. I play 3s so Yuso I wanted for his W, and I wanted Kalista because she is lane due powerful.

The real problem is Riot also doesn't Nerf the way they really should. Yuso for example, he was intended to be the first melee's in a long time to be able to go mid lane so him being op to be able to counter range/wizards. To balance him they basically nerfed everyone of the skills and stats to justify the 50% crit chance. Where if they had just said "maybe 50% instane crit chance was a bad idea," and pulled it. While to Keep him in the mid lane they would just decrease the cool down on Wind wall and increase the power of his passive shield. Meaning he could either still block projectiles expect more often and survive burst better.

If they were REALLY smart they would let CertainlyT work on a lot of the reworks so he make are Old fav Op to stay inline with the new op releases.

WarlockLaw4/9/2015, 6:16:40 PM2 votes

I only have a problem with kalista and yasuo at this point as I feel the others have been brought into line. Yasuo imo needs double crit or the armor on his ult removed while kalista needs her jump to be based on movement speed so slows hurt her

90014/9/2015, 10:24:14 PM2 votes

If I had my choice, all champions would be designed by CertainlyT

redniwediS4/9/2015, 5:07:49 PM1 votes

I don't see why CertainlyT has to be called out to have this discussion. Every champion is, at least in part, a group effort, and so if balance concerns come up during the designing process other people will have their voices heard before the champion comes out. No single champion designer is able to make champions without peer review from multiple areas.

Your thread sounds like a nice start to a discussion, but calling CertainlyT out will just call haters over who will QQ about him instead of talking about the champions and their kits, which is the actual topic of discussion.

Stars Shaper9/9/2015, 10:26:58 AM1 votes

CT Champions provide challenges both playing as and against them.

The problem that created the hate and how said champions are percieved is that CT is the only1 trying to brake that safety barrier and so champions of that kind are rare to find in the roster. I'd really like if Riot would just go that bit over the top with every1 and then smooth things out.

I'd rather have hundreds of OP champions rather than hundreds UP champions.

JChaosMaster4/9/2015, 5:31:53 PM1 votes

I like most his champs. Besides the one op thing they get for no reason. Yuso is a great example because for the most part he would be perfect without the free crit.

Kalista is her slow in her w.

His champs to push the game forward in they are like nothing before bug because they are like no one else do they extra powers.

DrathTurtle3144/10/2015, 11:41:27 PM1 votes

Of the champs that you listed as being designed by CertainlyT, the only one I like(on either team) is thresh. I hate supporting kalista, because she can CONTROL you as her support. Thresh gives you the option of using his lantern, kalista absorbs you regardless of your choice when using fate's call. I would actually like to see a balanced yasuo, but I'm not a good judge of where individual champs are at balance wise. Zed and Darius are annoying, but rely at least in part in snowballing.

I feel like putting a delay, or a range, on returning to Zed's ult shadow, might improve him slightly, but part of his identity is bound to his safety, so he should be able to get out once the job is done.

Thresh has a little too much control of his opponents in lane, but he isn't broken to the point that I complain about him too much.(I don't ADC) He is also my strongest support, so I might be biased there...

Venowolf4/11/2015, 12:19:00 AM1 votes

Yasuo early power its very weak, Zyra its a very low champ, Kalista if yo catch her you can kill easy, Darius its very kitteable, Thresh ots avery good support on everything but his early its weak too.