Unpopular Opinion on Zed, Riven, Lee Sin, Fizz, Etc..

MadDoughnutz·1/18/2016, 4:48:00 PM·60 votes·4,571 views

A lot of People call the mechanically harder champions to play against 'Infuriating' and 'Unfun'. Zed, Yasuo, LB, Fizz, Riven, Lee Sin, the whole shibang. Thing is, and it's a fact, people don't like being outplayed. Which is what all these champions are based on doing. Zed needs to harass you down with a skillshot before pressing R and trying do enough damage to kill you with his other skills. Yasuo dashes around to dodge skillshots and his windwall helps in keeping projectiles away from him and his team. LB, I give on this one, is very annoying and hard to deal with when she Q-R's you. Fizz is self explanatory. Riven is a monster when she snowballs and she's a lane bully at the same time. Lee Sin is in the jungle ganking your lanes with flashy mobility.

Thing is, they don't out stat you, they don't pass a check that says 'I have enough X to kill you' like other certain champs. They perform mechanical combo's and generally are built squishy, with their defense being in their damage and mobility.

To me, that isn't unfun. That isn't infuriating. If I get outplayed, sure I'm upset; I lost. Anybody would expect to be upset. But at the same time, I would admire the guy who outplayed me, I find it fun that I got to experience that skill against my own. And when I beat them, I smile and am happy that I didn't beat them because they had less stats then me, I beat them because I out-skilled them. THAT is why I enjoy seeing these champs and enjoy playing against them. That is also why I hate playing against champs like Irelia and Vladimir. They don't out skill you at all, they just farm up with sustain until they get enough items to beat you down with right clicks or spamming Q-E on you repeatedly while surviving not thanks to their skill with their mobility, but due to being tanky. Which is just raw stats. When I win against an Irelia or Vlad or any other champion like them, I don't feel skilled. I don't feel like I outplayed them. I feel like I just beat a champion that didn't have any tools to out skill me besides passing a stat check.

My opinion on the matter is, as much as the community calls them unfun and unfair, I feel like they are better for the game as a whole. They are fun to play against BECAUSE they aren't ball of stats champions. They are all full of active abilities and skillful mechanics when played at a high level, and I enjoy seeing them, playing with them and playing against them(Though not as them). They're a challenge, and when I win that challenge I feel good about myself.

tl;dr, I enjoy seeing and playing against Lee Sin, Zed, Riven, Yas and others, and I hope they stay.

95 Comments

PDE5 Inhibitors1/18/2016, 6:21:11 PM51 votes

The problem that most people have with those champs that you can't outplay them. You have to hope they fuck up and aren't that good with the champ. They do extremely high damage, but are so mobile that they can get out of any situation that isn't going their way. That's the frustrating part. It's easy to "outplay" someone when you have 10x the amount of tools to do it with. That's the issue.

Xerath could outplay the shit out of me. Difference is Xerath doesn't rely on completele bullshit to do it.

Ariel the Cruel1/18/2016, 7:29:35 PM19 votes

Why champs are considered infuriating (just going for the name drops):

Zed

Pros: Easy wave clear, Bonus %AD, practically resourceless (Energy costs are not meaningful), High mobility, situationally untargetable, long range spamable poke. Cons: Ult telegraphed, builds glass cannon, melee.

Zed's risk exists only in team fights. He's a top teir duelist at all levels, lane bully early game, and split pusher mid/late game. He's useless when shut down, but is exceedingly hard to do so for most of the champion roster. The risk/reward paradigm just isn't there.

Riven

Oh gods, the snowball potential. High mobility, high burst, high DPS, AD scaling shield. Thankfully they nerfed her early game. The real problem with Riven is the burst. I've never had problems with your standard riven; but you can always recognize a regular by the animation canceling. She can turn what should be about 3-5 seconds of DPS into a Rengar Style insta-gib - Starting with a Stun!. Of course, only Riven and ADCs (orb-walking) are allowed to animation cancel. Do it on anyone else, and it's actually bannable!

Lee Sin

This guy is actually easy to summarize: "kit overload". High mobility, high base damage, high scaling, good sustain, High utility, blatant favoritism by Riot. The only thing keeping this guy in check is his skill floor. He's [debatabley] the flashiest champion in league and one of the most consistent picks in pro play. He's so strong, that he has single-handedly dictated the jungle meta for most of his existence. And the moment he falls out of favor, the bastard gets straight buffs quality of life improvements that shouldn't affect high level play. Because of this, he's also one of the most popular champions in league. And lets be honest, playing him properly is hard. Which means riot can just rattle off his win rate at low elo and claim he's balanced (For any other champion, "win rate is rarely indicative of balance").

But I digress. Lee Is just flat overloaded. He has all the tools to out-play most of the champion roster when and how he wants with incredibly safety. You don't actually beat a good Lee, you're just there when he F's up. Unless you play a specific subset of OP champions, allowed to exists for the sake of jungle diversity (see: Lee, Elise, Vi jungle of S3).

Fizz

This guy is also easy. High burst and mobility is fine on an assassin - they're basic tools of the trade. 0.75 seconds of untargetability every 4.4 seconds (45% CDR) attached to a 400 range dash. . . Now we have an issue. Troll pole your initiation, combo you, troll pole your retaliation, turret dive for the kill, troll pole turret agro. "outplayed" Give the troll pole a more meaningful CD, and he won't be an issue.

Yasuo

Admittedly, I don't have the most popular opinion on this one. I'm all for the out-play potential on this guy. I'm not all for the ridiculous amount of safety nets he gets. I've trashed him with hard counters, hard countered, and just about everything in between. And for all my hard work, what do I get? He can't solo carry the game anymore. (>_>) Weaknesses/safety nets: -Situational ult But can be used on any displacement; not just knock-ups and not just his own. -Situational mobility But has almost no CD and is strongest in lane phase. -Situational CC Requires 3 Q stacks, which last 10 seconds, has no resource investment, and super low CD. -Reduced late-game DPS In exchange for a lot of free stats resulting in super early power spikes ensuring that he never truly falls behind meaningfully. -squishy Has a huge low CD shield refreshed by ult and windwall. -Windwall has a high cooldown It completely deletes any bullet that touches it (and associated skill) resulting in some weird interactions (see Nami and talon ults). Has a hit-box bigger than him, which means he can sit in for 4 seconds of 100% projectile immunity. -often gets focused in teamfights resulting in above average death counts Gee..... I wonder why?

Point is: Yasuo either hard carries, or is average. Beating him means nothing, losing means you potentially threw the game. That is infuriating.

LeBlanc

Dash->blink back, repeat. Slow->root, repeat. Burst 1/3 your health, repeat. Ya, her ult makes for some really f'ed up combos.

Oh, look, you caught her! . . . Oh look, it's her passive again.

There's a reason a lot of junglers don't bother ganking LB.

Irelia

Punishes you for punishing her. Passive is super annoying in team fights.

Vladimir

A tank that heals and does damage - both in spades. Troll pool. Enough said.



The common trend with frustrating champions isn't when they are OP/UP or they're ability to play around others. Give them every tool in they world, I don't care (personally). The problem is when those out-play tools remove or severely limit your ability to out-play them in return. When your only option to beat (not just go even) another champion, is to hope they F up, there's a problem. Similarly, you have a problem when beating a champion has no significant value.

I don't mind getting out-played. I welcome it. Just like you said, losing in a match of skill is interesting and potentially educational. I got trashed by a Nami mid once - one of the most fun lanes I've had. I've done Vel'koz/Zyra and Veiger/Azir match-ups - had a blast. But I had equal control in those match-ups; I wasn't dependent on my opponent messing up before I could do anything.


EDIT:

{quoted}

its also infuriating to have champions that have 0 outplay potential because they are outdated and poor champion design.

people know what lee sin does. what yasuo does. what fizz does. etc to outplay you. you just can't do anything about it. i wouldn't consider it outplay if i cant do anything about it. other than not fight at all.

This is also something to consider. Some older champions don't really have the tools to deal with some of the newer designs. I'd consider this more of a supportive factor than core; but I can see it coming into play.

ProfDrDeath1/18/2016, 5:02:09 PM14 votes

With Zed, the problem is not him outplaying you.

Rather, the problem with Zed lies in the inherent low risk of the pick. Even if Zed's enemy manages to correctly play around him in lane, Zed's not particularily punished for it - he has easymode CS-ing, after all, between his passive, his Q and the fact that he is building AD.

His passive alone raises his lasthit threshould by 27 (melee) / 17 (ranged), compared to everyone else. And that is to the minions that spawn before 3 min.

A change I'd really like to see for Zed is to make his passive no longer work against minions.

Troiann1/18/2016, 6:19:54 PM10 votes

LB's not mechanically difficult. Fizz isn't either.

I hate playing against them.

But they're not OP.

Lao Fu the Tiger1/18/2016, 4:56:40 PM8 votes

Bumped you back to 1.

Truth is, people hate the truth. People hate adapting.

yay nibbers1/18/2016, 4:54:40 PM8 votes

Except for Zed's rather annoying point and click ult, I love playing as and against these champs. I won't claim proficiency on these champs but some of the most fun I have with this game is playing them, and because I play them I know how to play against them as well. A lot of frustration comes from people no knowing how to deal with these champs and not understanding how exactly they got beat, but when you know how they function and where their weaknesses lie it becomes much easier to deal with them.

Shiyo Kozuki1/18/2016, 6:15:11 PM7 votes

A braindead rat could play zed and kill people.

WalkingInACircle1/18/2016, 6:19:29 PM5 votes

Well, I'll agree that I don't agree with you on it. Mobility is not skill. The tactical options these champions have over other champions often makes them easier to make plays with. The careful positioning and map awareness used on an immobile champion is a lot harder.

If you're taking a champion like vlad and your opponent lets you walk up to them and beat them to death when you're stronger against them, you're playing against bad, bad players.

Only Play Darius1/18/2016, 5:36:55 PM4 votes

Fizz honestly isn't mechanically intensive. He is by no means a button-mash champion but he is very easy to pick up in comparison to Yasuo Zed Leblanc LeeSin

Llanite1/19/2016, 12:32:19 AM3 votes

Most of the complains come from 'mage' who is mad for not being able to walk free after shooting things 2 screens away. Must be unfair, right?

Lux/Brand/Anvia is just overbearing against Annie/Fidd/Kennen/Pantheon/Teemo, some of which now have to permanently relocate to top lane. They're just a lot less vocal on these forums.

Assassins getting popular because people are tired seeing these long-ranger fuckers every goddamn game.

Blue Moon Wolf1/18/2016, 6:31:57 PM3 votes

As someone who hates Riven, I've had the chance to play her and now understand why her mains not only don't want her nerfed, but are deathly afraid of major changes like what the Edge mechanic was going to bring. Yes her kit is op, but her base stats are ridiculously low to compensate for the strong kit. This is why even though you see all these amazing plays from Riven players, she still has one of the lowest win rates in the game since she has to get fed in order to do well. Overall, she pretty much is brokenness in champ form. Any nerf or buff on her could easily make her too strong or too weak, while something like nerfing her kit while buffing her stats would make her boring to play with/against. Even something to make her more readable like Edge was going to do might have ended up being a huge nerf she might not recover from.

Feathermane1/18/2016, 5:17:17 PM3 votes

Someone Flash+ulting you doesn't mean you got outplayed, and that is what Zed, Lee and Riven rely on the most.

KhaZix Bot1/19/2016, 2:50:10 AM2 votes

To really lock down why the community labels these champions as unfun, we need to first define the difference between "skill floor" and "skill cap". To put it simply, skill floor is how well you have to play a champion to see success with them, while skill cap is how much more success you can accumulate by becoming skilled at the champion.

Sure, Zed and LeeSin have high skill caps that result in skilled players making God tier plays that are fun to watch, but they also have fairly low skill floors. This means that unskilled players can pick them up and still do fairly well after a couple of games. As well as a 4K game Zed main? No. But well enough to pull out more wins than they should be able to.

Zed is unfun because he isn't punished for missing his Q, as it costs no mana. He's unfun because one five unit misstep means getting hit by two Qs and an E, automatically proccing Thunderlord's and taking 3/4 of your HP after his first back. He's unfun because he has no prerequisites to do reliable damage aside from "wait for R to be up" and can mindlessly all in you in a wave (or even under tower) because he has access to two blinks (plus flash). He's unfun because he can then use that absurdly reliable mobility and burst to run to another lane, dive your teammates with relatively low risk, get out, come back to lane, and one shot an entire wave. He's unfun because he can literally all in one person and kill someone else by accident with AOE (Thunderlord's only makes it worse). To sum it up, he's unfun because he has no real weaknesses. Certainly far less than most assassins.

Lee Sin is unfun because you don't actually have to be a God to do anything on this champion, much like Zed. You can literally miss your Q and be rewarded for it with your passive. He is unfun because his base damages are honestly ridiculous and, while he does fall off, he's still fairly useful all game. He is unfun because he's absurdly mobile. With the vision changes, odds are you'll never find Lee Sin without his ward jump available, and contrary to popular belief, it is not hard to ward jump. Lee has defined weaknesses late game, but he's too easy to pick up for what he can become when you start to play him well. I can respect a top tier Lee Sin play and I love to see them, but Lee missing his Q three times and getting to beat the shit out of you with passive+ red buff because of it is ridiculous. You shouldn't ever be rewarded for mistakes. Oh, and no. It isn't hard to Q someone at point blank range, ult them away, and jump to them. It looks cool, but it doesn't make anyone InSec. It's a basic function of the champion that literally anyone can do if they hit their abilities in the right order. So basically Ryze.

Fizz and Riven are completely different. They're not relatable to the other two at all, in my opinion, or each other for that matter.

Fizz is just Fizz. He's easy as hell to play and while you can learn a few tricks, his skill cap isn't that high up there at all. It's not like you can really make "huge outplays" that often on Fizz. You use your combo, you kill someone. You E and avoid some damage. Cool, Yi can do that too. If you're playing Fizz, one shotting someone, and then "outplaying" and getting more kills without ult, you probably aren't outplaying anyone. You're just so fed that you're killing people in two basic abilities.

I might get hate for this but, uh... Riven isn't very good right now. Yeah, if you're good with her, you can do some impressive (and respectable) shit, but I'm not sure how people are getting pubstomped by non Riven mains. Honestly, I don't think that they are. I think that the Riven they remember is the main who beat their ass, and not the one who heard Riven was pretty good and died five times in eight minutes... or the million Rivens that were never picked because there are a dozen champions that do her job twice as well with none of the risks. Compared to the other three here, Riven has the highest skill floor currently. That might change if she keeps getting buffed, though.

So, yeah. I give credit where credit is due for impressive plays, but the bar is pretty high. A Q ult combo on Lee Sin is a basic champion mechanic, not an InSec tier play. I've seen it a hundred thousand times and it never gets more impressive. A Zed player pulling a perfect 1v3 while only a little ahead is cool, but you know what isn't? A Zed player missing all his Qs, finally landing one combo after missing forty, and killing you because he never had to back since he doesn't need mana. Again, Fizz is Fizz. I play him, he's a pretty bullshit champion. He isn't hard. I don't find his plays terribly flashy. You land a shark and kill, you miss it and don't. That's pretty much it. You get fed, you Q+W or E+Q someone and they die. Wow, LCS level play. Truly outstanding. Riven is actually kind of hard just because she's sorta' weak right now.

Vistha Kai1/18/2016, 9:59:51 PM2 votes

There is nothing remotely mechanically challenging about Fizz. I'd say he's just as hard to play as Vlad, except his ult is a bit different in execution, but in the end it still does the pretty much the same thing.

Of course, it should be noted that Vlad's Troll Pool's CD is longer than most poke spells, unlike Fizz's Troll Pole.

So in the end, Fizz is even easier to play than Vlad.

Honestly, he is bullshit, because of how much power he has in his nigh-uncounterable Playful Trickster. It's a huge AoE, dealing shitton of damage, on low cooldown, tied to a double dash, making him untargetable.

You could literally make a whole champion kit out of that single ability.

Now, I completely don't mind playing aganist LB, whom I destroy on every occasion even when seemingly countered. Lee Sin is... annoying, but not that hard to play aganist. I could care less about Zed, but he's a natural counter to my main champion, so there's that. Yasuo is his own set of bullshit, but still bearable, although shares the mentioned above trait with Zed. Riven... I rarely play top, but she's more than easy to play around outside of laning.

Mizaya1/19/2016, 2:20:48 AM2 votes

These champions, regardless of "skill floor" all have a very high skill ceiling. Even LeBlanc, though anyone can combo and delete squishes on her, has some complex mechanics like moving your clone to bait the enemy. Lee Sin has a plethora of combos that he can use to outplay his enemy. Zed's shadow management is hard to master, but watch any good montage and you'll have a tough time even keeping track of him as he kills his enemies. Riven is THE animation cancelling champion. Fizz, too, has mechanics such as his E and flash, and cancelling his ult animation with Q. His early laning too, is very hard to play against ranged champions.

What makes all these champions popular, in part, is the amount of dedication you need to master them. While there's probably not much difference between a 500 games Vlad and 50 games Vlad, there's a noticeable one between a 500 game Zed and 50 game Zed.

Maximum Morde1/18/2016, 5:43:50 PM2 votes

No. The problem people have with those champs, is that while most of us got tossed into the River and told to swim, those champs were given life jackets and water wings to make it really hard to fuck up.

I don't feel good when I kill a Zed, LeBlanc, Lee Sin, Fizz, or Ahri. It just means they were terrible players, the kind who were given a hand grenade but tossed the pin and held on to the explosive. I hate Yasuo for thematic reasons, but at least when you catch the little weeb he dies.