Tanks can never become balanced until you tone down anti-tank itemization.

JarvansWAR·4/7/2017, 12:43:00 AM·75 votes·5,216 views

The purpose of a tank should be to draw attention and soak up damage/CC. The threat is minor amounts of damage (minor, Darius is not a f*cking tank) and threateningly long durations of CC. Tanks build a combination of resists and health to achieve this purpose, and their natural tankiness and tank steroids/utility allow them to live much longer than any other champion building the same items.

However, itemization towards tanks boils down to doing one of two things: bypassing their resistances and going through their health pools faster. That's all fine and dandy until you consider how much of both is provided for AD:

(For this section, we are going to use a relatively standard tank (with no bonus resists or shields for simplicity, adding 9 armor for runes): Amumu
Level 14, with a build of item 3102 item 3111 item 3143 item 1409 item 3110

##NOTE: I put the calculations in little quote boxes so that if you're like me and reading math makes you sick, you can just read the non-quote boxes and you don't have to see the numbers.


#Resistance Bypass: item 3071 With minimal effort, removes 30% of target's total armor.

(69.5+9+150)= ~229 armor Now, we add the shred: 0.7(228.5)= ~160 armor So, essentially, 229 ⇒ 160

##That is a 69 armor reduction. That is basically the armor from your item 3143 plus all 9 of your armor runes negated by a 3k gold item.

![item 3035](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.11.1/img/item/3035.png)/![item 3036](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.11.1/img/item/3036.png)/![item 3033](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.11.1/img/item/3033.png) Passively grants +45% bonus armor penetration.
>(69.5+9+150)= ~229 armor
EDIT: (Credit to Backup4now for this correction) Let's ignore that armor: (69.5+[.55(9+150))= ~157 armor
So, essentially, **229 ⇒ 157**

##Last Whisper and its upgrades reduce armor by 72. That is a ![item 3082](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.11.1/img/item/3082.png), a ![item 3143](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.11.1/img/item/3143.png), and 2 of your armor yellows ignored completely by a 1300 gold item.

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#Health Burn
![item 3153](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.11.1/img/item/3153.png) Deals 8% of your current's target HP in physical damage.
![item 3036](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.11.1/img/item/3036.png) Grants +15% physical damage against our tank
>(1629+1.15(300+500+400))= 3,009 HP

Let's say our attacker is a level 14 Twitch with only BoRK and LDR and he took attack damage reds. So, his full auto damage is:
>1.15((84.6+40+50)+.08(3,009))= ~478 damage per auto attack (More than an IE crit at the ~175 AD he has now)

Normally, the damage reduction is as follows:
>100/(100+229)= ~0.3 
~0.3(478)= ****

##Normally, it would take 21 hits to kill this Amumu at this level of damage. 21 auto attacks with only this amount of AD and BoRK (I know it's current health, don't make me calculate this shit for every single auto).

Now let's factor in the armor ignore:
>100/(100+157)= . 39
.39(478)= **~186**

##Now it will take a little more than 16 hits to kill this Amumu. That's 5 hits less.

Now let's say your top laner (it's probably that f*cking Darius) or your ~~jungler~~ Lee Sin has Black Cleaver and works their magic.
(Since armor reduction applies first, we'll calculate accordingly.)
>(69.5+9+150)= ~229 armor
EDIT: (Again, credit to Backup4now) Boom, shred: ([69.5 x .7]+[(9+150) x .7])= ~160 armor

Now we add the armor ignore on Lord Dominik's Regards:
>100/(111.3+88)= ~.50
.50(478)= ~240

##So basically, in the respective order of no penetration  ⇒ LDR ⇒LDR+BC we get this neat little flow chart of damage:
##143.4 ⇒ 186 ⇒ 240damage
##So we went from 21 ⇒14 ⇒ 13 hits for Amumu to be killed. By a late game ADC with one core item, no Doran's blade, and an armor item. He doesn't even have crit or any real semblance of AD and he's already able to kill this Amumu just fine.
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This little demonstration of messy calculations was to show you how absurd AD tank shred is. Until we tone this shit down, tanks will always have to deal damage, will always get blown up, and we'll never get anywhere. Oh, and Riot is reducing HP and increasing resistances on tank items now, so... yeah. Yay.
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#Q&A Session
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
##1. Hey, ~~Melledoneus,~~ JarvansWAR, what about crit? What would it be then?
Fuck you I'm not doing those calculations. I'd rather take a nap. Q&A session over.

101 Comments

G1Radiobot4/7/2017, 4:28:22 AM20 votes

Adcs should definitely always beat tanks. But what people tend to forget is that the original idea is that adcs would beat tanks by out sustaining them, not by just bursting them down in less than 4 seconds. I feel like fights in league should be slower and more methodical, with tanks attempting to lock down carries, with adc's trying to avoid burst damage dealers, burst champs maneuvering to kill other carries, while sustained damage dps's the enemy tanks down.

Slimegoon4/7/2017, 1:54:10 PM12 votes

It's really sad when I pick Rammus vs. an all AD team with a tank support, build nothing but armor and HP, and still get burned down in less than 3 seconds.

Big Lincoln4/7/2017, 12:49:22 AM6 votes

these items all came about as a result of defensive stats being too abundant

they are a problem for sure but tank items were the cause, not the symptom

Spicy Rice4/7/2017, 12:48:29 AM4 votes

Here's the thing, adcs can and have been melted in .1 secs.

If you compare them to tanks (who would live 4.5 secs, assuming 2.5 attacks per sec), tanks live 48 times as long as adcs

Only Play Darius4/7/2017, 6:19:50 AM4 votes

I'm fine with BC as it takes at least SOME effort to apply. The Last Whisper rework was idiotic

Backup4now4/7/2017, 5:32:31 AM3 votes

Before throwing math at people, you should probably touch up your math. For example, bonus armor pen does not affect total armor. That is why it's called bonus armor pen. So, your

(69.5+9+150)= ~229 armor Let's ignore that armor: 0.55(229)= ~127 armor So, essentially, 229 ⇒ 127

Should be

(69.5+[(9+150) x .55])= ~157 armor So, essentially, 229 ⇒ 157

In addition to the above, Black Cleaver shreds a % of base and bonus separately. So, your

(69.5+9+150)= ~229 armor Boom, shred: 0.7(228.5)= ~160 armor

Should be

([69.5 x .7]+[(9+150) x .7])= 48.65 base armor + 111.3 bonus armor (this one gets last whisper applied) = ~160 armor

Scary Door4/7/2017, 4:00:16 AM3 votes

A 6 item ADC should always be easily able to out damage a 6 item tank, period.

Damage has to ULTIMATELY win out---that doesn't mean that tanks shouldn't be viable or even good if they're ahead, but if all things are equal then damage should always beat out defense. Think about what would happen to the game if that weren't the case.

Earl Eulrich4/7/2017, 3:07:18 PM3 votes

same with healthreg/draintank/lifesteal - it´s obvious for years that it´s bullshit to design sth around a 50%reduced effectiveness that applies basically all the time, as it either will be totally useless with the reduction on it or it will be oppressive if the reduction isn´t just there. There´s really no grey area...same for tanks right now. Either they snowball ahead and are close to immortal midgame or they get oneshot.

The Yetii Rider4/7/2017, 4:47:40 PM1 votes

"Minimal effort". You think hitting someone six times in a row is "minimal effort"? If a tank has taken six instances of physical damage from the enemy team and still hasn't died, the tank is doing his job. He's soaking damage. The Black Cleaver is not an item you can use to argue against a tank's effectiveness, the time it takes to stack up is exactly what the tank wants to absorb.

TyrekGoldenspear4/7/2017, 3:01:08 AM1 votes

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