Boards›Gameplay

Why is surrender in this game?

Kuma No Neko··2 votes·981 views

In general, surrender is a dumb mechanic for people who get salty and say "oh well we're one kill behind time to give up i hate everyone on my team!!! bronze hell!!!" because I've come back from games so often, I even won a game where our nexus was at 14 HP and we didn't have a single inhibitor

And I've lost games where we've been very close to winning, the only time I can see a surrender being valid is if someone is afk or never joined but the solution to that which god forbid you learn something from 'dota' is you get that afk persons gold income split among the other 4 players, and you can control them and sell their items which will also be split among 4 people, and in dota this happens after 5 minutes of afk, how long league wants to wait is up to them

Personal funny story that brought this up, was winning a game, had 4 towers, we only lost one and we had better carries and a better team in general, and to my knowledge everyone on our team was ahead in items

but everyone got upset sion was dying a lot so we surrendered, me being the only one to say no obviously

18 Comments

Krully5 votes

Because turtling from 20 minutes in is shit and not fun?

Kuma No Neko1 votes

So you surrender literally every game you fall behind in?

rtbf2216514122 votes

{quoted}

So you surrender literally every game you fall behind in?

You act like there are points in the game where you can always get back. You must be new here.

If a team has trashy items, the end result will be trashy. I'm not going to fall the ignorantly optimistic "You can always turn the tide!" because sometimes you just can't. If your team lacks cooperation, types more than fights, buys a ability power item as an adc, one of them is a troll, one of them is afk, and one of them is feeding, then the odds are not in your favor. This isn't mentioning that kills isn't even the main point of the game. People in lower Elo think K/D/A matters and do not go after towers when they could have been destroyed fifteen times ago and won seventeen minutes ago. If nobody goes after the towers and the Nexus, you will not win. Ever.

If you have all of the above on your team, your odds of winning are zero.

Angry Monster4 votes

cause when you get higher in skill; you actually understand when games are not winnable?

bad arcade kitty2 votes

an afker isn't a valid reason to surrender, i won and lose so many 4v5 and 5v4 respectively just day or two ago i won when i myself was afk for the first 18-20 minutes (not really my fault, i thought i dodged), ten minutes after i joined the gold advantage went to our team, i ended as 5/4/16 and even got honored by the enemy... that game was mostly carried by our reksai though but still

disregardable1 votes

I just played a ranked game with Blitzcrank. My team was so horrible that I thought it was in normals. Like we're talking jungle zed and sivir with no health try to take dragon when the enemy bot lane is right there. Then, after respawning, the Sivir goes back into the jungle (instead of her lane with all of her farm) and tries to take Zed jg's blue. Their Caitlyn shows up from finishing dragon, and instead of just going to lane Sivir sits there and tanks the blue. And then, when she respawns again, she goes mid.

She didn't go bot the rest of the game. Even though both turrets were up and the farm was free.

All 4 of their carries had over 12 kills. I thought Sivir was under level 30.

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1776672997/218533396?tab=overview

And they didn't forfeit.

danmarge1 votes

While I will agree that sometimes the surrender vote is abused and things like this happen. That's why it requires 80% of the team to agree. You being 1 out of 5 on a team were the only person to not agree making you the sizable minority. This would be a more valid argument if it were decidable by simple majority. There are definitely games where I would say that the odds of your or the enemy team winning are at probably 1% or less, when you're just getting stomped (this is what makes the ff option a must imo).

But there are games in the grey area where the odds of winning are anywhere from 5-30%, that the losing team still ff's. While you may come back in said 5-30% of those games, that's still the minority. In these games some players are probably taking into consideration 2 things. A) the time wasted in slowly completing a game that's already perceived lost or probably lost and B) the lack of fun 4/5 players are having continuing said game (where another game that they could be playing if they ff this game will be fun). At the end of the day this is a game, and a large percentage of the community plays for fun and the others play more competitively to rank up. Point A applies to the people who are playing competitively and to rank up while point B applies more to the players playing for fun (both apply to players in the middle).

So while you may win those games some of the time these players may not be ffing just because they know its lost, but because they do not want to play that game anymore. I agree that as the 20% this maybe irritating for 80% of the people on you're team it's a relief.

Kuma No Neko1 votes

The problem with A and B is

A if you want to rank up, then you would logically not want to surrender even if there's a small chance of winning

B it's a strategy game, isn't difficulty 95% of what makes a strategy game fun/interesting?

danmarge1 votes

impossibility and difficulty are two different things. A is correct because of the time spent slowly losing said game (time lost vs odds of winning when that relationship reaches a certain point a practical person will ff). its like surrendering a hand in blackjack you get back half you money (time) while forfeiting any chance of winning to maximize gain by playing the odds.

ChargeItDownMid2 votes

[deleted]

danmarge1 votes

Finally we get someone who is a practical person like myself here. I learned from kripp that minimizing the time wasted in a game is necessary to achieve your goals in game.

SwiftKitten881 votes

{quoted}

A isn't true at all. Assuming that you are good enough to win more games than you lose, every minute you spend in a lost game is a minute that you are not spending in another game when you have a >50% chance of winning. Lets say you win 55% of your games with an average game time of 30-40 minutes, it makes absolutely no sense for you to spend 20 minutes trying to pull back a game where you have <2% chance of winning.

math... i like it +1

bad arcade kitty1 votes

{quoted}

While I will agree that sometimes the surrender vote is abused and things like this happen. That's why it requires 80% of the team to agree. You being 1 out of 5 on a team were the only person to not agree making you the sizable minority. This would be a more valid argument if it were decidable by simple majority. There are definitely games where I would say that the odds of your or the enemy team winning are at probably 1% or less, when you're just getting stomped (this is what makes the ff option a must imo).

But there are games in the grey area where the odds of winning are anywhere from 5-30%, that the losing team still ff's. While you may come back in said 5-30% of those games, that's still the minority. In these games some players are probably taking into consideration 2 things. A) the time wasted in slowly completing a game that's already perceived lost or probably lost and B) the lack of fun 4/5 players are having continuing said game (where another game that they could be playing if they ff this game will be fun). At the end of the day this is a game, and a large percentage of the community plays for fun and the others play more competitively to rank up. Point A applies to the people who are playing competitively and to rank up while point B applies more to the players playing for fun (both apply to players in the middle).

So while you may win those games some of the time these players may not be ffing just because they know its lost, but because they do not want to play that game anymore. I agree that as the 20% this maybe irritating for 80% of the people on you're team it's a relief.

except you actually cannot know the real chance to win, only your estimation which is almost surely is incorrect

danmarge1 votes

You can probably make a rough estimate based off of other games you played. Although the variables (players on both teams) are different you can also make assumptions about them as well. While I will agree that my estimation will be wrong at times that's why its an estimation. Lets say I make an estimation of a 20% chance of victory, for this argument we can assume that estimate can be within + or - 15% (that + or - is inflated higher than I actually think it would be in an average game in order to make a more conservative argument) that means the odds of winning are between 5-35%. These still aren't promising odds for the most part.

Let's use the average game time of 42.5 minutes and lets use a 25 minute ff time (we'll just add 5 minutes to the minimum ff time to be conservative again). The time difference between these is 17.5 minutes. If we can guess that the odds of our team winning are at =<33.3% or 1/3, although 1 out of those three games statistically speaking we'll win the other 2 will combined save us 35 minutes which is almost a whole other game we could play. And that's using a relatively high chance of winning with decreasing this percentage obviously increasing the benefit of ffing.

It's a lot of assumptions but with a few games under your belt knowing the limitations of your team fighting as well as how fed your team is vs the other team and what rolls are fed I don't think its absurd to say that you can get a pretty decent estimate (more realistically with a +or- closer to 7.5 - 10%). You can then hinge this on the amount of fun your having and the time wasted on a game you'll probably lose to make a practical decision to forfeit. With this being said that's only you're thinking, 3 out of 4 other people have to also agree which means its not only your experience guiding your assumption and estimations but 3/4's of the rest of the team. Like I said before if this was only a simple majority vote my opinion would be different.

If you took out the ff button I think it would have a more negative effect than positive. While some games it might make your team fight to the end. Two types of people would probably just AFK (1. Those having a miserable time getting stomped repeatedly and 2. those who view finishing the game a waste of time) decreasing your odds of winning and making you fight an already unfair match with less people.

DreadPirateChris1 votes

Surrender exists because if a team is up 30 kills to 2, has all the towers down, five dragons, and baron... they might not finish the game. They might think it's fun to keep killing your team on respawn instead. They -shouldn't- do this. If you fool around long enough the enemy team gets to reach max level max build too and then your 'lead' suddenly doesn't mean much. I've been in comeback victories in never-surrender teams in pretty terrible positions. (Not this season though... the new Baron and Dragon buffs do give the strong team a powerful lead that can't be scaled out just by turtling.) Any sane team should stop the bully antics and win the game before you reach max build/max level though. There'll -usually- be a 'win before we throw' push before a comeback is actually possible even in the most bully of teams. And of course if they actually take all the inhibs, even if they ignore the nexus the super minions will win the game for them sooner or later.

Also of course, you might be 4v5 or 3v5 if you have a disconnect or two. Of course, 4v5 games -are- winnable, just very difficult and often not very fun. If you get very far behind in a 4v5, it becomes nearly impossible to come back. They have more people so can easily answer split-push with a 2v1, they have more people so have an inherent advantage in teamfights, etc.

Anyway, surrender exists basically so that you don't have to keep getting stomped on when the outcome is (nearly) inevitable. People do surrender -way- to easily in many cases, but if you've ever been on the wrong side of a 30-2 stomp with the enemy team ignoring your nexus in favor of killing you on respawn (maybe even in your fountain if they have good poke), well, that's why surrender exists.

Sinister Snail1 votes

I'd rather just ff a normal game I'm 90% certain to lose at 20-40min, and start a new one fresh, than drag it out to 40-60min. Win or lose, that shit's exhausting.

Ranked, though, I'll play 100% my best until a nexus explodes.

GoldenMean1 votes

a winning team could troll you really badly if there was no surrender button

SLangedEdge1 votes

surrender is a love hate relationship. There are many games you wish you had it and many games you wished your team didn't spam it. LoL really has to fix how they deal with dc and afk'ers and not depend on a surrender feature. If a champ doesn't connect or afk's within the first 5min or before first blood, game shouldn't count for teh rest of the ppl. The offender is punished alone (or punish the whole stack). If you afk dc at any other time, stack should get punished and the other ppl are allowed to leave whenever they feel like (tho they will still take the loss, same as surrender without being forced to vote).

Now the surrender option, i believe should exist...there are times you just can't win without a lot of help from the other team, but i dont think it should be gated by a time limit. LoL is a numbers game, if you're far enough behind in net worth and position (towers/inhibs) game becoems increasingly hard. So there should be some algorithm that calculates how far behind you are and how much time is left until everyone hits 6 slot and based on some threshold you will open the surrender option.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Kuma No Neko

Are you losing your game? Don't know why?
Memes & Games7 comments
17
votes
Are we still pretending these are not problems?
Gameplay13 comments
9
votes
I don't care how many threads it takes but it needs to happen
Concepts & Creations11 comments
4
votes
Why is the game balanced based on the "the pro scene"?
Gameplay26 comments
3
votes
Everyone is ignoring Riot's other problem
Gameplay9 comments
3
votes
Am I completely missing something about Katarina?
Gameplay5 comments
2
votes