Jayce is so close to being good.

Elastoid·12/9/2015, 5:31:53 PM·34 votes·3,496 views

The problem with Jayce as an overall champion is sort of the same problem there was with Nidalee -- you have six abilities but he was (and still sort of is) defined by just one heavy poke ability. Riot dealt with that by making him super mana hungry and upping the cooldown on his E, but he was unfortunately still all about the one poke skill. Jayce builds became about two things -- making the poke hurt more and enabling him to spam it. His hammer stance is useful for winning lane only.

Jayce as a champ exists in a binary state, both from game to game and in League at large: Either his poke is too strong, or he, as a champ, is not strong enough.

Nidalee has outgrown that spot, though. Now, she's largely about using her spears to begin a fight, but not as her sole mechanic. She now wants to poke, then jump in. The way Repertoir made that happen was by taking power from her spears and distributing it to another area of her kit.

Jayce has had power taken out of his poke over and over. Shock Blast is about where it needs to be -- his poke is game-changing but not game-breaking. When a team is facing an enemy Jayce that is fed, they have options -- both sustain and hard-engage work well against a Jayce. This is assuming Jayce is hitting his Shock Blasts, which have become easier to dodge.

The main problem is, Jayce has a stance that's supposed to be tailored to hard-engage, but he's just too squishy to make it work. He lacks reliable CC to make much difference building tank, and he lacks the tankiness to succeed in hammer stance when building damage. All of these problems can be mitigated when he's fed, but if a Jayce is behind, he's nonexistent.

The other problem is, as a "win lane" tool, Jayce's hammer stance is... actually pretty good. A Jayce can land a Shock Blast through an Acceleration gate, use Hyper Charge, run through the gate, close with To The Skies!, land three fast hammer attacks while doing damage with Lightning Field, knock the enemy back with Thundering Blow, then transform AGAIN to shred armor with an auto and finish with another Shock Blast. That can be too much. At levels 3-5, Jayce can win an all in by virtue of "I have way more abilities than you."

The problem there is, Jayce doesn't have to really think too much about what stance he's in, because he can change it really quickly. If you're changing forms twice in one all-in engagement in lane, there's probably something wrong. It looks and feels super cool, but when you compare him to Elise or Nidalee, you can see why their form changes accomplish more than his does. For Elise, her human form is all about setting up engagements with poke and CC, and changing to spider form is an announcement she's going for the kill. Nidalee is similar, with her human form being about creating opportunities, and her cougar form capitalizing on them. When Jayce changes to hammer stance, he's usually saying "My cannon abilities are on cooldown so I'm going to switch real quick and switch back as soon as they're off cooldown."

This problem means that any buffs to Jayce's hammer stance are buffs to his oppressive laning. What you don't want is to make Jayce relevant by just saying "Okay, you're going to get fed more often, so your Shock Blasts will be more oppressive." Instead, ideally, Jayce has to be constantly aware of which stance he's in. Good Jayce play should be about asking "Which stance is best for this situation?" and not about a) staying in one stance for every teamfight, or b) swapping stances over and over so you can spam abilities.

I really want Jayce's hammer stance to get a buff, making him and his melee form more relevant, but I don't want the result to be that he's too dominant in lane and comes out of it hitting too hard with his Shock Blasts. Simplest solution would be to make his transform cooldown scale, like the rest of the ability. Have its cooldown go to 8/7/6/5 at 1/6/11/16, thus ensuring that he can't swap stances twice in a short lane engagement at level 4. Doing so would free him up for a decent buff to his hammer stance.

When I talk about buffs to his hammer stance, I don't mean huge ones. I mean buffs that do two things -- make his hammer stance tempting to Jayce players outside of lane phase, and give him a tiny push back into relevance. Possible options:

Jayce Slightly buff the resistances that hammer stance grants. When Jayce uses hammer stance in a team fight, he's easy to focus, and he's likely to BE focused if he builds damage. If he builds full tank, his damage becomes negligible, meaning it would be hard for him to take advantage of these resistances to try to become unkillable. Instead, this means a Jayce building damage will survive slightly longer when diving in. Jayce Give him more mana from his Lightning Field passive. The passive is genius, as it gives Jayce a reason to jump into hammer stance in lane even when not going for a kill. His mana-hungry lane phase means he'll often need to swap forms. Changing his transform cooldown as previously discussed creates a larger window of opportunity for his opponent to capitalize when Jayce swaps forms to farm mana. This is good, but he simply needs to get too many autos out in order to make enough of a difference. Buff the amount of mana returned from his autos here. Jayce Give him some lifesteal in hammer stance. This increases the utility of Jayce's hammer stance as a sustain tool in lane, and simultaneously gives him more survivability if diving in. Jayce Give him a decent shield upon transforming into hammer stance. Recalling that stance-swapping is now less common, it's unlikely that Jayce will be able to abuse this shield with frequent swaps. It would allow him to deal with some initial burst upon engaging, without any risk of making him into some unkillable monster. It's impossible to give him added health upon form change, as that's just too much free sustain, but a shield (especially one that decays) doesn't create that problem. Jayce Give Lightning Field some small AD scaling, and increase its cooldown and mana cost. There's a lot of potential to make this ability good. Right now, it's got two problems -- it doesn't feel like it does much (even when it does) and if it did more, it'd become overpowered. Giving it genuine, noticeable damage, but making its use a genuine decision, seems like a positive change. This makes hammer stance more appealing, but sadly doesn't help him stay alive, which is why I prefer: Jayce Give Lightning Field a small shield. This would create more choices with it, and increase his survivability. Obviously, this would be instead of making the shield happen on form change. Also, this, too, would require a larger cooldown for the ability. The only champion with a free spammable shield should be Riven. Jayce Make To The Skies! cast a little faster. The idea with To The Skies! is that it's powerful but easily reacted to. He can be stunned or interrupted really easily. It would be bad to make him untargetable or do something like that, but narrowing the window of response just a bit wouldn't be a bad idea. Jayce Refund To The Skies! cooldown if interrupted. This is a secondary option. Right now, To The Skies! WILL be interrupted by any champion with any ability that can do so. This means kiting Jayce is fairly easy (and it will get easier if his transform cooldown goes up). Giving him the cooldown back means a champion can interrupt his gap closer and run, but can't interrupt his gap closer and then laugh while kiting him to oblivion because he can't change forms or escape.

Obviously, I'm not suggesting all of these buffs be implemented (some of them are clearly redundant), but one or more of these could feasibly make Jayce a stronger, better champion WITHOUT making his Shock Blast spam more of a problem. When talking about making Jayce play more about assessing which form is better for which situation, these buffs create more situations in which hammer stance is the correct answer. It brings Jayce closer to what he's supposed to be.

Some people might look at things like increased resistances, damage, lifesteal and a shield and say "wow, you're giving Jayce WAY too many stats in the one form, just to compensate for the range loss." To them, I say... look at Gnar. Gnar gains more resistances, combined with increased health and damage, as well as access to heavy CC. It's true that he has far less control on his form swaps, and a strong case could be made from the way people play against him (avoid him when he's big, engage when he's small) that his tank form is overpowered and his ranged form is too weak. That said, Gnar's tank form isn't so strong that he's impossible to play against, and it shows pretty well exactly how much compensation you need to make loss of range a decent trade. Gnar gains enough in his playmaking ability and stats to make Mega-Gnar the stance players would always choose if given the option, which means he gains more than Jayce needs (or should have), but Jayce clearly needs a hell of a lot more than 5/15/25/35 armor and magic resist to make his hammer stance a reasonable option.

Again, Jayce is almost where he needs to be. I'm not suggesting that Jayce is incredibly weak, is incapable of making a real difference, or anything of that nature. I do think that Jayce is less strong than other champions, and that currently he's never the "right" pick -- any situation where he's good, there's another champion that's a better pick. I'm saying that his relevance and playstyle could both be improved with a few minor changes.

49 Comments

Left Hook Larry12/9/2015, 11:55:36 PM7 votes

Jayce is already really good. Stop trying to buff good champs to make them broken. He's fine as he is now. If you can't win with him then you're the problem not the champ

Knoyle12/10/2015, 2:05:58 AM3 votes

It might just be me but I feel like Jayce does fine where he is. He might need some tweaks here and there but an overall buff doesn't seem needed.

DaneQueed12/10/2015, 2:27:20 AM3 votes

I play jayce alot myself and while hammer stance could use some buffs, he is a ranged unit first and a melee second to pick off the weak (currently imo). I think he still has great outplay potential in his kit. To the skies speed could be buffed or make the animation speed up relative to MS so when you Q through a gate or have the ms from it you get that super snappy power slam or even make it bigger and better for going through gate similar to shock blast.

An Ad ratio on his lightning shield would be incredible actually even if its .05-.1 bonus ad just so it is more relevant as the game goes on and just a few more mana back on autoattacks (2-3manas). Really all I could think of is maybe a small health per level increase, the only problem I feel I run into is just not having enough health for engages even when you're topped off he feels squishy.

Thundering blow comes out as magic damage in the tooltip even tho he slaps you with a big hammer, changing that to physical would help its damage throughout the game without it actually needing number buffs. Along those same lines the sheen proc thingy you get for switching from cannon to hammer maybe could be switched to an AD ratio or come out as physical dmg much like sheen itself. Small changes like that I feel would make hammer form better without making him super redic.

Its still cool to see a thread like this, I dont see many other jayce players. The few the proud I guess.

Sniperkaj12/9/2015, 8:08:56 PM2 votes

I think it is natural for a laner to want to have ranged AAs - it is just way safer and easier. But a problem with hammer form is that it is a very bad starting point if you get ganked, as his escape mechanism is tied to his E. If you are in midlane, and the jungler comes while you're in hammer form, you would instantly switch, deploy E and run. If they then decided to dive you anyway, you have very little outplay potential opposed to if you started in cannon form.

An interesting feature could be to actually GIVE him "the Gnar treatment". Take half of his Bonus AD, and covert in into a large amount of HP (+ maybe some "base" HP bonus). This would make him have possibilities of being an intiator. They could even tie a passive to his melee W, that when you hit 3 basic attacks in quick succession, it stuns the target, to make it more possible to do the "Jay-Sec". He would still not be extremely tanky, though, so CC or focus fire could kill him or stop him quite easily in teamfights - but a fair bit harder than now.

To give him more lane-sustain in hammer would make laning frustrating for either Jayce or the opponent. Either Jayce can't go into melee form because its to dangerous and the opponent has an easy time hitting you and damaging through your sustain, or Jayce will be almost impossible to lane against, because he has poke, and you cant get him low, and when you try to get close to him while in Hammer form, he just jumps on you and outtrades you, and can finish you with Shockblast.

Jayce is my favorite champion, and i really hope to see him back soon. The new build + playstyle (with IE, ER and crit based combat pattern) makes you feel like a half-assed ADC :(

EDIT: The reason i mentioned that the escape is in the ranged form, is that Nida and Elise have escapes in their melee form, making it the form of choice when you are "afraid". The only way to make Jayce the same, was to make his Q targetable to friendly units/wards - but i dont feel that would be a good idea.

Wolfram Oxford12/9/2015, 8:55:09 PM2 votes

I honestly would hate to see the cooldown of his ultimate change, this would lower his over all dps by a lot and there would be no real compensation besides making every ability do more damage, and having lower cooldowns. Another thing I would like to say is that Jayce is pretty versatile and you don't need to go a full damage build, he is a champion that can build based on what he needs to do. And lastly I do agree that hammer stance may need a small buff, but with it being more of an execute or follow up, I think Riot should focus on giving more damage to his q in hammer form (missing hp damage or better ratios) and then give him more mana back when he autos in hammer form.

WeG12/9/2015, 9:08:58 PM2 votes

One more thing I'd like to add after re-reading the OP, referring to "Jay-sec".. Stormraiders keystone.... I've been J-seccing the shit out of people this season. Hit an EQ and you proc the 35% movespeed, pop your W switch to hammer Q in for the slow, and simply walk in front of them to J-sec. You don't even have to flash because you have +35% movespeed and they are slowed. It's ridiculously easy to pull off.

WeG12/9/2015, 8:58:21 PM2 votes

Another thing I'm noticing is your building trinity force. I can't for the life of me understand why you'd ever do that on Jayce. My build -every single game- was Corruption potion start, rush Essence Reaver, into IE, into boots (I'm really like ninja tabi's this season), into phantom dancer. It's absolutely insane. After that it really doesn't matter what you build I found, but high AD items seemed to work the best. TL/DR: Quit building tri-force.

Rohirrim12/10/2015, 6:57:18 AM1 votes

Give his W same effect like Fioras E(slow then critical)

Clyp30 4fun12/10/2015, 12:41:17 PM1 votes

i think that the main problem here is jayce's E in both melee and ranged form, let me explain why

when in ranged form his q does barely nothing if u are not using his E, in melee u can knock back their jungler to escape a gank and easily escape a gank making him hard to gank.

I think that they should remove his E and make his Q charge like xerath's , but it shouldn't cost flat mana, it should be that the more u hold Q the more mana it takes up to full mana pool.In melee form idk what he could use but still that's a really cool mechanics that really fits jayce, since he has been the mana hungry bully of the lane and can lead to nice scenarios.

EcchiOtakuTM12/10/2015, 1:09:50 PM1 votes
Ishmar12/10/2015, 5:34:55 PM1 votes

Jayce is amazing. Just saying. He has very versatile build paths and can round out a team quite nicely.

Gigahappytown12/10/2015, 11:31:23 PM1 votes

Its funny because 80% of jayces damage output are his autoattacks.

Mat7itan12/9/2015, 6:24:10 PM1 votes

I don't have time to read this as I am studying for an exam, but I do agree with you that Jayce is just shy of being good. The biggest problem I have with Jayce is that his cooldowns make him feel kind of clunky. HIs ult has a 6 second cooldown (compared to elises 4 and nidalees 3) which makes it really hard to cycle through his abilities smoothly. It also makes it harder for him to play around the situation. Elise can go from ranged to melee 2 seconds faster and nidalee splits his time in half allowing them to use their abilities more smoothly and change to the situation much easier.

alfavhunter12/11/2015, 9:21:57 PM1 votes

How to buff Jayce

The power of all of his abilities can be increased if you do this

R CD is now increased to 40/30/20/10 (lvl a with points into R)

This would make it so in lane his spells are not spam switch stance spam switch stance, allowing more power into the kite

Gun mode would gain armor pen and crit chance (example while in gun mode you gain 10 armor pen and 33% crit chance for 3 seconds stacking up to 3 times when you use an ability, hammer mode you get .5 your ad as armor and MR and gain mana when you AA)

It would make each mode have a defining role, ranged is damage, melee is tanks disruption bruiser/recharge mode

I would also greatly increase his mana regain in hammer form but basically remove his mana regen when not in hammer form, his disruption in hammer form would also be buffed, by adding a stun to his to the skies, and a slow to his aoe Lightning field (don't remember the name sorry)

He would also gain being similar to riven with building damage still makes him tankier, but he trades range for that

WeG12/9/2015, 8:31:00 PM1 votes

I've gotta disagree with you completely. http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/604726#ranked-stats

I exclusively OTP'd Jayce in every role, yes top/mid/jung/adc and support, to get out of bronze after ELO decay a few weeks back. This was during preseason after not playing Jayce for well over a year. Your claiming that his accel/shock blast is his one trick, and I'll agree with you for levels 1-6. Maybe even up to 10. But the build I came up with for Jayce actually ends up being a late game 100% crit-400 AD 45% CDR hypercarry build that is just ridiculously hard to stop.

I carried so many unwinnable games with my entire team feeding the entire game just because as Jayce I could even do terrible the entire game, but all it takes is 1 teamfight to win. I've been expecting Jayce nerfs for weeks, and your asking for buffs.

Btw if your still playing him with Muramana, I laugh at you sir. I haven't built tear on him in 2 years.

Dominick Destine12/9/2015, 8:48:35 PM1 votes

Jayce does not need buffs.

He is still perfectly viable in Diamond.

Social Justice 112/9/2015, 9:33:54 PM1 votes

...I'm probably going to go make a Jayce thread in the concepts board.

While the change from him having "Hard Engage" and "Siege" forms is for the better, turning them into Setup and Hard Engage, well. Has already been done with Nidalee and Elise. I'd like to see the power kept on Cannon Form, with Hammer Form being his setup (making a Setup-Siege champion).

But that would require nothing short of a rework.

Dar Raksada12/9/2015, 9:57:40 PM1 votes

I actually felt like Jayce was pretty strong last patch, Essence reaver into infinity edge was really strong, add a bloodthirster or a guardian angel with lucidity boots and you're done.

stealthfox9412/10/2015, 12:02:39 AM1 votes

Honestly I think Jayce is a better designed champ than Nid. You can still do tons of damage even if you miss shock blast. He's AD so his auto's hurt more than some ADC's. Also one thing you didn't mention is that Nid's pretty weak right now.

Ternt12/10/2015, 2:28:32 AM1 votes

I've got over 200 games total this season on Jayce and with these new items, I feel like his build can change up a bit. But you're very true, Jayce either has 2 builds now, either hard poke or assassin. I've played multiple games as him as a bruiser, and though it works sometimes, when the enemy team is too fed he is basically useless. I can usually get in and kill a high priority target, but die immediately afterwards. I think Jayce is one of the most fun champions to play, but I feel like with how the top lane looks now he is an outcast. I agree with the changes you've suggested, as he can be a hard champ to balance with all the utility he has in his kit. He's one of those champs that it truly depends on the team comp on the other side. In squishy comps, I can absolutely shit stop them before they really get a chance to do anything. He's been my most reliable source of quadras this season (9), the most on any champion I have by a long shot. I'm curious to see what this new AD item will look like for him, even though I truly feel like he's in a good spot as is. I just haven't taken the time to find a truly proper build for him.