What exactly makes "all fighters unplayable"?

Penns·12/4/2017, 6:16:03 PM·24 votes·2,081 views

Because I hear it, then I think to myself ".. isnt Xin like the best or one of the best champs in the game rn?" But then I think to myself "Maybe its just top laners, but wait, Jayce JarvanIV Rengar Camille Jax Irelia Gangplank Yorick Olaf Pantheon MonkeyKing are all "Fighters" and doing well right now."

I mean, let me quote Gbays recent video that people post a lot: "we want fighters as a whole to just be playable; I want to play Rumble, Jax, Camille and Kennen every game, without worrying about getting counterpicked"... Jax and Kennen are good, Camille is doing well too, and here they put Rumble in S tier.

Unless you think that everything except the top 2-3 champs in a role are unplayable garbage, I dont see how "all fighters" are.

81 Comments

redniwediS12/4/2017, 6:20:51 PM21 votes

It's not really a matter of win rates, it's a matter of laning against some of the least fun champions this game has seen. Sure some of those champions might have the ability to win the game later on, but when the first 10 minutes are hell it doesn't really make top lane mains excited to play their preferred role.

McFatal12/4/2017, 6:49:36 PM11 votes

kennen is one of the cancers that abuse fighters.

play top and figure it out for yourself instead of blindly guessing.

go play any melee fighter against pantheon once and tell me how it went when ur jungler didnt come once.

ValyrianBlade12/4/2017, 7:38:14 PM11 votes

I think it sums up to this: Top lane is, and has always been, the lane most controlled by counter picks. They exist in top lane like they don't elsewhere, largely because of large disparity between ranged auto attacks, ranged abilities, sustain, and mobility, present in the top lane.

You don't get real counters in the bot lane. Even if Morgana does well against Leona due to black shield, it doesn't make it so the enemy ADC needs to give up a lot of CS. Dodge morgana's Q and you can CS as you like. Likewise any two ADCs can both last hit relatively safely against each other - with the need to back up and give up CS only arising when your support isn't present to help you.

Mid lane likewise sees no such disparity. There may be really tough matchups for some champions, but in general champions can CS from range and don't need to have a laning phase that feels like you're constantly just trying to survive and do nothing else (at least not due to the champion, you can die and start to feel this way because you're behind).

Top lane though - there are simply too many matchups where through no fault of your own, the lane immediately becomes a "do not die and try to not lane your lane opponent get fed off of you or roams in laning phase". In itself that's not a huge problem - a tank is going to outscale that Jayce or Kennen or Pantheon top laner. The ranged/harass top laner is going to 'enjoy' their early game more as they try to create a lead, and theoretically you should enjoy the mid-late game more.

The problem that arises is with how snowbally the game is, it's simply not viable to be a melee-only top laner hiding under turret against a Jayce/Kennen/Pantheon/etc... for all laning phase, because the game then gets decided by which bot lane wins. If the enemy bot lane is beating your bot lane, you lose the game. Your lane opponent literally got to win for free because he picked a champion that you can't fight in lane. If he was playing a melee champion, you could have the chance to be the better player and out-cs him and get solo kills on him and be strong enough to stand up to the enemy bot lane. Instead, you're relegated to lower-than-normal income due to being forced to give up CS AND the enemy bot lane is fed = you can't win, even though you played properly. There's a feeling of helplessness in those games, and that's a problem.

I never get the feeling as a mid laner that my bot lane fed too hard and there's nothing I can do to win. I could have won mid lane harder and roamed harder on the enemy bot to keep us in it. Likewise as a jungler I could have had better presence bot lane (although when your bot lane is a combined 0/4 before you're level 3... well those games are lost hopes no matter what). As a top laner though? Sure, if my opponent is playing a melee champion I can feel like I could have own lane harder and TP'd down to help or something. If my opponent is a Pantheon/Jayce/Kennen though, nope, no luck. There's literally nothing I can do in a game where my opponent has that much priority on me by default and my bot lane happens to lose. And it's not a two-way street, because if their bot lane is losing they can still go super aggressive on me and get fed on me if I don't play it right, and they can be strong enough to beat my bot lane. Not the other way around though. Sure, I may have an edge if the game is close and we make it to late game, but even though we'll have a superior teamfight the late-game is often more decided by better macro play or whichever team successfully gets a pick / wins a fight at baron. I might get an edge, but they're nowhere near as useless in late game as I am helpless in the early game.

Ralanr12/4/2017, 6:57:03 PM9 votes

Feels like auto heavy Melee fighters (and Riven) are having the worst of it.

Mal the Red12/4/2017, 6:22:17 PM4 votes

Attack Speed is the key. And there are few runes that help AD champs that DON'T build AS.

Feathermane12/4/2017, 11:24:58 PM4 votes

Top lane mindset: The 1-2 champs I play are real fighters, everyone else is just a mage, or juggernaut, or tank, or cancer I hate to fight. If my main isn't in the top 2 pro picks, the entire class sucks. Put yourself in Riot's shoes and try catering to that demographic.

Gives No Lux12/4/2017, 8:22:34 PM3 votes

PEBKAC

Coopa12312/4/2017, 6:47:01 PM3 votes

The problem with Bruisers/Fighters right now is that they are too weak for what they do compared to other roles.

You can go the oldschool and regular build on Irelia with Triforce and Blade for example and you'll still be outdamaged by a full tank Ornn. You can't blind pick these champions because if you get counterpicked in champ select you have no way of winning the lane.

Blind pick Renekton and you're gonna have an awful time. If you're up against Ornn or Teemo you might aswell hug the tower and pray your teammates carry.

Lighten12/4/2017, 8:29:52 PM3 votes

I think that fighters are currently doing fine in this meta. What I don't think is fine is the subclass Juggernauts. Every Juggernaut is currently struggling right now (Except for Ornn? But he's a tank more than anything and has CC.) That's where I'd like to see some buffs happening. They should have a dominate laning phase, but it currently feels like they don't.

Troll for Trump12/5/2017, 2:21:21 AM2 votes

Top lane feels useless as a whole, especially in comparison to the relevance of the rest of the team impact. Tanks are generally just better. Jayce is, and always has been an abuser of "range vs melee." Really isn't a fighter. Jarvan is seldom played top, and when he is, people are going lethality. Wukong and Pantheon are similar. Basically, they're all assassins. Rengar isn't really played top. Camille/Olaf have a sub-50 winrate. Olaf is worse than Rumble overall, with both lower winrate and playrate.

Yorick is an exception due to his rune abuse, and is getting nerfed accordingly. Gangplank lowkey abuses Klepto (a lot of GP players are saying Grasp is better). He's also a "Ranged" top laner (like Panth) due to the way his kit works. Doesn't play like a fighter.

Jax and Irelia are doing ok

A Bad Nasus12/5/2017, 3:09:28 AM2 votes

Toplane is shit because tanks get to outperform fighters in nearly every aspect of the game even mirroring splitpushers with demolish. They'll outduel you laning phase and they'll make you want to uninstall in teamfights.

Couple a ranged opponent with all the damage creep this preseason and you get a lane that only interests sadists, masochists and freelo tank mains.

Athenes Lulu12/5/2017, 5:16:14 AM2 votes

I think the more important question is "why play fighters when tanks can do everything better while having more CC, damage, and durability, while they only need to build full tank which is way cheaper?"

Probably missing something, but that's enough to be a pretty big deal.

MuffledGarbage12/5/2017, 12:21:04 AM1 votes

I haven't been in lane for more than 1 game where I was fighting a melee champ in the toplane.

I've been playing my Main(whomst is a Juggernaut) Yorick.

For all of those games, I was against Teemo,Quinn,Jayce,Kennen, Vayne, etc.

And the ONE game where I ACTUALLY played against a melee champ, it was Ornn and Ornn is overpowered right now thanks to his possible 18% max health damage at level 1, where most of that damage is in-avoidable for Bruisers and Juggernauts, in addition to lane sustain from the items he builds AND his ability to build items in lane(which can't be contested if you are lower/same health than him and haven't backed yet).

So all "Fighters" are not unplayable.

"Juggernauts" are very close to unplayable due to the sheer amount of work needed if against a Teemo,Quinn,Jayce,Kennen, Vayne, etc.