Champion complexity/difficulty VS Power Budget.

AccurateYeet·12/17/2019, 9:00:23 AM·36 votes·13,381 views

As I'm sure everyone knows at this point Riot's not been as worried as they should be about budgeting the power of champions lately, so I'm gonna take a shot at weeding out the root of the problem. I'd say the issue lies in a fundamental misunderstanding of what complexity and difficulty are, and the fact that riot isn't adding complexity to kits, they're adding power instead.

Let's look at the poster girl for 'difficult' champions: Riven . Everyone will tell you Riven is difficult to play so she should be stronger than the average champion. That might theoretically be true, but ONLY IF THAT DIFFICULTY GATES HER POWER Which it doesn't. Now my Riven is beyond boosted, but on the very rare occasions I've played her I tend to do at least halfway decently, not because I know the first thing about animation canceling or any of the skill ceiling tricks that make her 'difficult' but because I can flip flash at which point the rest of her combo is hit confirm and can oneshot squishies like an assassin. (For those of you who don't know what hit confirm is, new players and the like: Hit confirm is when a spell cannot be missed outside of extreme circumstances. Qiyana's EQ is hit confirm; point and click that essentially makes her other spell point and click unless you can cover about a screen of distance in the same frame her E connects.)

What this suggests to me is that somewhere along the line they got Skill Ceiling and Skill Floor mixed up at the very least. Riven isn't bad on rate compared to other champions just by looking at her numbers/scaling. She has more mobility than the vast majority of the roster, and it's unconditional. She has bigger and better AoE hard cc/engage than most tanks and enough damage to overkill any target that might be able to threaten her eventually in one combo. She has low cooldowns, an execute, more abilities than any other champion in the game etc. Now I won't be the one to tell you riven is hilariously overtuned right now, but you can't deny her kit is Strong.

Now the important part here is that Riven is not more difficult than say Camille to get at least passable results with, in fact I'd say she's easier, not because her combo is necessarily physically easier to execute but just because she's allowed to do more. Anyone who's played vs a Riven, especially if they're only marginally familiar with the champion themselves can tell you trading into her is an absolute nightmare. Even if you can stat check her, she can mobility/cc, whatever check you in response. Almost no one, with the possible exception of (ironically enough) a particularly well played Camille is allowed to impose their trade/all in or what have you on Riven as well as they might like unless the pilot makes a particularly egregious error, and she's a time bomb who'll outscale unless you can find some way to completely dumpster her. (This doesn't stop her flash oneshotting your backline, but that's a problem with so many champions these days I can't fault Riven specifically for it. Hell, the fact she even needs to flash or find an intelligent flank is honestly a point in her favor.)

Now at the very top end of individual play Riven is a monster the likes of which we'll probably never see again. The animation cancel plays are absolutely nuts and they allow her to essentially do everything when played by a real master. That would be fine in theory, and I can respect to a degree mastery of a champion to that level. Do I think she should be able to do quite as much as she can? No, but that's another argument. The point is that she can only do that Because her kit has so much inherent power in it ALREADY that can be used by the average player along with a mechanical gimmick that breaks her at the highest levels of solo play.

Now let's say Riven lost the stun on her w, or the shield on her E; she'd probably suck worse than your iron 5 bot lane trying to play up against Double and Aphro. But let's consider that if you WE cancel you get the whole package. That Gates the power in her kit behind whether or not you know about/can execute the animation cancels the champion is known for. Can't do it consistently? Well then you have to take the power deficit till you can. Hell, you could even lock the execute on her ult behind canceling out of it with her E. I don't think these are actual viable changes, that should be left up to someone more qualified than myself, but the concept stands.

Tl:DR: Adding power into a champion to increase their complexity has the opposite effect on their skill floor, and 'difficulty' is only actual difficulty if there's a gate or a skill you need to get minimum effectiveness. Or put simply, a higher skill ceiling needs a higher skill floor to balance or you just get overpowered kits.

Hopefully this is in the right board; could be general discussion, but since it's balance related I'd assume at least that it belongs here. It's not intended as a dig on Riven specifically, she's just an easy example.

34 Comments

CapnMorganFr3man12/17/2019, 6:52:06 PM14 votes

The one thing noone can ever debunk about 'difficult' champions is the study Riot did on Riven one tricks in which they found out one trick Riven players getting Riven banned in games affects their winrate more negatively than any other one trick in the game. This means if you use Riven to climb to Diamond, and your Riven gets banned in a Diamond game, you're hilariously out of your depth since playing any other champion puts you at a Plat level of skill, maybe even high gold. So it might be difficult to learn Riven at first, but playing her and knowing how to play her inarguably lowers the difficulty level of the game.

For proof of this we saw something similar this weekend during the TCS when Yassuo's team lost extremely hard against Voyboy's team since Voy target banned all of Moe's champions (Akali Yasuo & Irelia i think it was?) & forced him to play Ryze. Moe lost his proverbial training wheels and lost the game hard for his team.

LightswornLance12/17/2019, 10:34:15 AM12 votes

Riven is unironically an easy champion. You literally can avoid learning macro, wave control, etc, and just learn mechanics and win every time through your champion having no counterplay.

Starcraft243ver12/17/2019, 1:07:09 PM11 votes

Everyone will tell you Riven is difficult to play so she should be stronger than the average champion.

I'm sorry, I'm afraid the premices of your whole post are wrong. Nobody in their right minds and especially the Riot balance team will tell you that.

Every champion is balanced so that, if used at 100% of its potential, it should be as strong as other champions (as strong meaning, providing the same amount of chances to win when he's in a random game, some champions are meant to crush their opponent in lane, other are enablers that help their teammate to do that, and others shine in teamfight, or in taking objectives). While it's impossible to achieve perfectly and while the power of the champions varies greatly between soloQ and pro players synergising perfectly, that's the goal Riot seek (or should seek) to achieve.

If you look at the winrate by champion in master+ (we will assume master players actually "masters" the champions they play at least 95% of their full potential), you'll see that there's a mixe of high skillcap champions as well as quite straightforwards champions.

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/builds/master/by-winrate

I do not like the term "easy" champion, because when you give mobility to a champion, his positionning becomes less important, his warding, vision, dodge skills become less important. Whereas a champion with a very simple kit like Ashe or teemo will have to work on their positionning, they'll have to pull more reactive dodges etc because they just do not have a spell helping them to reposition or dodge.

If you, as a player want to play higher skill cap champions, you can, but do not expect them to be stronger than low skillcap ones once you master them. They are not and they should not be.

WoonStruck12/17/2019, 7:00:27 PM6 votes

Riot doesnt pay attention to power budget anymore.

ModThe Djinn12/17/2019, 9:17:04 PM5 votes

{quoted}Everyone will tell you Riven is difficult to play so she should be stronger than the average champion.

I wouldn't.

It's easy to present this topic as flat complexity vs. power, but in reality it's much more complicated. You have to figure in the following (and more):

  • Burden of knowledge (i.e. mechanical complexity).
  • Burden of execution (i.e. complexity of executing the kit flawlessly).
  • Power windows (i.e. vulnerability after using an ability).
  • Resource management (i.e. staying power).
  • Counterplay (i.e. how easy it is to disrupt ideal play).
  • Scalings (i.e. when the champion is strong or weak).
  • Optimal gameplay accessibility (i.e. how easily the champion can access their ideal gameplay state).
  • Utility (i.e. what else the champion brings to the table).
  • Fallback patterns (i.e. how strong the champion is when they're not succeeding, and how good they are at catching back up).
  • Success at 100% (i.e. how strong a champion is when played perfectly).
  • Expected success (i.e. how strong a champion is in your average fight).
  • Weak performance strength (i.e. how strong a champion is if you execute their kit unreliably).
  • Trade-offs (i.e. how much of a champion's kit needs to be sacrificed to retain other strengths, such as Fizz losing damage if he saves E to escape, or Tryndamere losing offense if he needs a quick heal).

Riven in particular has a low skill floor (mashing buttons in melee will achieve some success) and a moderate skill ceiling (once you learn animation canceling and her combos you're effectively maxed out). She has strong resource management as a manaless champion, but can struggle to maintain high health values against poke and has difficult gameplay accessibility without using one of her damaging effects or shields early. I don't think this means she needs to be stronger than your average champion -- she just has different strengths and should, overall, be strong in her areas of strength and weaker otherwise (as should most champions).

Or put simply, a higher skill ceiling needs a higher skill floor to balance or you just get overpowered kits.

This is also not true. A champion with baseline accessibility but deep nuance can achieve success. Lee Sin and Nidalee are good examples -- at the lower level of play they're functional, but the depth of their kit interactions increases as skill rises, increasing their potential power respectively. You CAN play both in a relatively simple fashion and perform decently.

To be honest, a low skill floor and a high skill ceiling is ideal -- it means anyone can pick up the character and have fun, and they can continue to master elements of that champions even as their skill level rises exponentially. It has nothing inherently to do with the power budget a champion is allotted and, in fact, you trend towards overpowered champions when they have a low skill ceiling (which typically means it's easy to succeed and they have low counterplay), and underpowered champions when they have a high skill floor (as the majority of players can't succeed with them, so they feel weak in all but the hands of a few mains).

Erresu12/17/2019, 10:20:30 PM4 votes

Everyone will tell you Riven is difficult to play so she should be stronger than the average champion.

This is likely the most problematic thing you said, and unfortunately it premises your entire argument. The issue is that this isn't how complex champions are balanced. In order to understand, I'll use the prototype example: Akali

Akali is a pretty nutty champion at the highest end of the ladder; she can be used primarily as a top laner in high elo as a strong laner with a powerful mid game, but it's clear that she has some functional weaknesses. Regardless, in the highest level of play, she's a relatively balanced champion to play against.

This isn't the case for practically any other elo, however. By examining her win rate with op.gg in platinum+ elo, we find just under a 47% win rate. How can a champion that's balanced in masters be awful for practically any other elo? It's simple; these champions aren't overtuned because they have complex kits. Rather, these champions are actively undertuned exactly because of their complexity.

This effect works in reverse; of course. Examine Garen before his mini-rework and you'll find an exceedingly low playrate and winrate in masters+ that can manage reasonably high winrates in Silver or Gold. Champions like Garen are overtuned by virtue of their simplicity, but this is justifiable because the champion's kit simply gives him less opportunity to kill whoever he wants, whenever he wants. Akali doesn't have that problem, and so she's undertuned substantially to provide for a fairer experience. This leads to disparities in winrates for champions across the elo brackets.

Posui Gart12/17/2019, 1:41:48 PM2 votes

Riven is allowed to be like this because:

  1. She is really hard to master
  2. Even if mastered, which really only happens in high elo, she faces other high elo players. Even if they can't beat her in lane, they can minimize her snowballing and eventually beat her in teamfights
  3. There is no simple way to change her because she has a dedicated playerbase that loves her for what she is: a high mechanical skill-cap champion. Basically the cost is too high while the reward is not worth it In my opinion, ALL animation cancels, spell-flashes and a lot of other things should be removed from the game. Champion with a lot of active spells that also relies on autoattacking is intended to have a choice: use a spell or AA at this exact moment, and animation cancelling just removes the choice because you can do both. Champions with cast times are supposed to have a weakness, their enemies can react to that cast time and avoid/minimize the effect of that spell. But its not really there because once every 5 minutes you can flash during the cast, making the spell pretty much undodgeable. Those mechanics must be removed completely and then probably re-added to some champions as parts of their skillset. For example, Aatrox has his dash that can be used during his Q cast, which is fine because that's how his skillset is made to work, short high-cd no-damage dash is used to help landing slow hard-to-hit Q sweetspot at the cost of not having the dash for some time later. Meanwhile Lee Sin is balanced around his normal spells, he can Q-Q, ward-W to get behind his enemy and ult him, which is ok because it is counterable, you have enough time to prepare from the moment his Q dash ends to the moment of ult cast time end. And then we have this "fuck this, I can just R-flash and there is nothing he can do, other than die and ping my missing flash that I don't really need because I have 2 other dashes". Same with Yasuo's E-Q-flash, Jarvan's E-Q-flash, Gragas E-flash etc.
Risk of Fate12/17/2019, 12:52:38 PM2 votes

Hit confirm is when a spell cannot be missed outside of extreme circumstances.

Hate to be the picky one, but I don't think that's what it means. Hit confirm is when a hit...confirms...it's literally that easy. The term you're looking for is "inescapable," but we're talking semantics and using fighting game terms to describe an RTS is like trying to fix a car by comparing it to a boat. May have the same bits, but they're very different in design.

Anyway, I'm going to toss skill out the door because that term is so vague, so controversial, and such a poor excuse to use as an argument that I'd much rather listen to Danny DeVito read from a phone book. For now, about complexity vs simplicity.

I've come to believe that the more complicated a character, the less damage they should do per attack vs their overall output because they have access to those tools. A simple character who may not have a stun, dash, execute, what have you, needs a way to fight against it ergo they should do more damage for less.

Gating abilities does not make for a complicated or difficult champion, it makes a frustrating player design for the most part. Why lock out half a characters kit when they don't do something first when the situation may not call for it? Let's say you're running away and you want to use flash. Well, in order to use that, you must first cast an ability that makes you stop in place thus having your pursuer catch and possibly kill you. That is one situation where locking something may cause more harm than good because an easy route that is open to everyone is now a risk because you chose a character.

Besides that, doing something like that actually decreases their difficulty as there is only one specific way to play them. If they have multiple ways to build / play (full AP, hybrid, lethality, tank), then the player would have to decide which route to take and possibly sacrifice something in order to gain an advantage.

Just my two cents, short of it is: complex champions do less damage, but higher output while simpler should do more with less output.

TomiMan712/17/2019, 10:59:55 AM2 votes

Play talon into her. She tries to engage just throw your W and she will get hit by both part. If she still goes for you just Q her and you already won the trade cos of your passive bleed.

Greenlightningx12/17/2019, 11:11:33 PM2 votes

complex doesn't mean an overloaded kit, complex is divided into

1-clicks per second needed to operate a champion optimally 2-skill rotation and spacing 3-the amount of risk the champion puts himself in when doing 1 and 2

just giving a champion a shit ton of skills that are useful in a lot of situations doesn't make them complex, it just makes them overloaded with goodies that people will get to learn how to use over time, and it also makes it impossible to fight because they have an answer to everything, without giving others the ability to answer them back, because lets face it, some champions kits are starved from useful features.

TheDelighted12/17/2019, 3:15:44 PM1 votes

I think RIOT should enforce a fairness to play rule. Eventually "hard" champions are gonna get learned. Then they are gonna get nerfed, so much so that trying to learn the said champion would be very very bad, and that ultimately leads to their rework or in worst case scenario they'll be left in a completely gutted situation.

*Complexity is not equal to Fairness. What is fair, is someone who has clear strengths and clear weaknesses. Complexity is the opposite of that, because the strengths and weaknesses of a champion get buried under tons of complex passives, 400 letters essays for skills, and complex mechanics that make a developer cry in a corner. *

-- K E E P I T S I M P L E, S T U P I D --

LaterToTheRace12/18/2019, 10:58:55 PM1 votes

Riven's Q/E distance traveled should be effected by slows. That way there's always a solid counterplay option against her at all stages of the game.

Beacon Academy12/18/2019, 2:43:43 AM1 votes

There is no such thing as a "complex kit" in a world where every player has access to the internet and therefore access to any guide as far as mechanics go.

[Moreso because our mirror neurons allow us to learn while watching others perform]

Riot doesn't understand this, and as a result, they make kits that simply have more tools.

And more tools equal more powers to access.

As someone else in this thread has mentioned: Its like playing with training wheels.

Because when was the last time you played a game where the hard mode gave you a plethora of tools compared to easy mode.

Hay5eed12/18/2019, 2:57:30 AM1 votes

The metaphor I use it describe this is that Hammer and the toolbox.

Which is "harder" to use? A hammer? Or an entire toolbox? Obviously the toolbox is harder to use, because of all the tools it has, including a hammer probably, but if I had to pick one tool to fix various problems around a house I would 100% take the toolbox and not the hammer.

The toolbox offers you a ton of options that the hammer simply cannot. Even if you don't know how to use each of the tools to their 100% effectiveness, merely HAVING the tool gives you an advantage that others don't

Ideas on making her more skilled:

Passive: Give Riven a stack meter like Jhin/Annie so that players know when she has Runic Charges and how many.

Passive: Instead of giving her Runic Stacks upon spell casts, give her stacks for performing certain actions with her spells, Q grants a stack everytime it hits a champion (several stacks can be granted for multiple champions hit), W grants a charge when you stun someone with it. E when you hit an enemy, and R would give you max stacks when you kill someone with it.

E: Remove the damage from it, and add a parry lasting only as long as the dash itself. If she successfully parries an attack she gets a shield scaling with percentage MAX HEALTH not BONUS AD wtf?

R: decrease the width of the ultimate so that it can actually miss without burning a flash. Decrease the damage the further it travels (and wider it becomes)

matchmakingscks12/18/2019, 8:20:20 AM1 votes

Instead of writing a whole doctrine , try to imagine if they would want to prevent champions from being able to singlehandedly carry a game in any case.teamwork and skill would matter more.and champion complexity would rather be a prefferencial and situational thing

Zëd Lęppelin12/18/2019, 3:09:50 PM1 votes

I've been saying this for years. Champions like Riven Yasuo ApheliosLeeSin Akali may have a high skill ceiling but their numbers are so high it's very easy to perform on them regardless of skill level. My Yasuo is awful, truly is, but I have mostly good games on him just because before any of the skill of myself vs my opponent is taken into consideration: my champion is just better. It's incredibly stupid and unfair but Riot can't do anything about it or the mains will crawl out of the woodwork and start cryin.