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Why is lifesteal equally effective for ranged and melee characters? Should it be different?

ModKnightsKemplar·3/30/2019, 4:24:02 PM·32 votes·11,717 views

Not a lot of body text on this one; interested in opinions from both sides.

I started thinking about this because it struck me as a potential way to balance some items around the ranged/melee physical damage carry issue. Many items, such as Guinsoo's and the Hydra items, attempt to gate power differently between ranged and melee characters, but I'm wondering if there are ways to build that into the stat system that wouldn't break the game.

So, what are you thoughts on letting melee's have bigger lifesteal? For the sake of consistency in the conversation, let's assume that melee's get 100% of the benefit of lifesteal items and ranged carries get a smaller %. What's a ratio that you think would be fair to both melee and ranged (assume you are allowed to modify the lifesteal % on items, too)?

If you think this would break the underlying game framework fundamentally, please explain why. What's so wrong with it that it would never work, no matter what the ratio was?

74 Comments

Moody P3/30/2019, 4:27:30 PM29 votes

Ranged champions usually can't buy more than one lifesteal item to begin with

Melee champions, since they don't usually get crit, can much more easily stack the stat through items and runes. They're also generally more durable both naturally and through items, which in itself multiplies the value of lifesteal

Its fine how it is. The solution to the ranged melee disparity isn't "make ranged worse at everything."

ModThe Djinn3/30/2019, 4:44:40 PM7 votes

My concern would be how this impacts the survivability of ranged champions. Part of what lifesteal does is push the "burst these characters" gameplay concept while providing them some ability to get back into the fight or lane if they survive the initial burst. Without solid lifesteal options, assassins and burst mages would more reliably be able to completely remove carries from the fights for longer periods of time, or force them to back and turn the game into a 4v5 for an extended period of time. That feels like a pretty fundamental change in the gameplay flow for marksmen, and also definitely punishes them for having a life-stealing melee character close to them.

I wouldn't be opposed to exploring the idea, but I'm not convinced that if ranged characters aren't gated enough that lifesteal is the correct place to gate them further.

Chembaron Yamada3/30/2019, 6:34:50 PM6 votes

I don't think that ranged champions should get a lower value of lifesteal.

I am fine with ADCs being able to heal back up after getting damaged, mostly because they are usually extremely vulnerable to burst. Many ADCs will simply die if you manage to perform a whole burst rotation on them, from many different classes like mages, assassins, divers and so on. If they manage to survive through such a situation, it seems ok for me for them to be able to heal back up rapidly.

Meanwhile many melee champions tend to be way more durable, either because of built in sustain or other forms of defenses like increased resistances/health or shields. So I don't really see a reason here why ranged champions should get less value from Lifesteal, it is specifically targeted as a defensive stat for marksmen (not solely, but it definitely is supposed to be taken by marksmen, too).

GhostOfTsushima3/30/2019, 5:42:17 PM5 votes

You guys are bad LOL

If melee got more lifesteal than Range

Aatrox MasterYi Yasuo Tryndamere XinZhao Fiora

I'm just saying but if you're getting your ass whoop already with how life steal is it now, you'll get it kick even harder

Sire Hippington3/30/2019, 8:41:21 PM4 votes

I feel like lifesteal is one of the less problematic stats in terms of range vs melee. The basic counter to lifesteal(or any sustian) is burst, and it's usually easier to burst down a ranged squishy than it is vs melees. Additionally, the health gained from lifesteal is more valuable the more resists you have, and melees tend to have more def stats. Lifesteal also scales of damage, and melees tend to have more damage(though rangeds tend to built more dps from items). So all in all, i don't feel the need of lowering livesteal for rangeds in general.

However, there are two things That bother me: Livesteal and minions aswell as free lifesteal from runes. I think livesteal should be reduced vs minions, and this is where i can imaging a bigger penalty vs ranged champions. Somthing like 50%lifesteal vs minons on melee AA, 33% for ranged and spells, which would allow to remove the aoe penalty which really makes spell vamp and omnivamp feel bad on many champs. As for runes, Legend: Bloodline seems a bit to strong atm and allows adc to sustain well with no lifesteal item at all. I'm fine lifesteal beeing a strong defensive mechanic for adc, but it should come at the cost of dps, and a potential 20%as is not enough of a tradeoff for 12%lifesteal. If they have to actually invest into a LS item and thus get less crit items, they loose quite some dps for the extra sustain.

ModCaliCoastReplay3/30/2019, 7:51:29 PM4 votes

I feel like if you want to take some level of lifesteal away from marksmen - which is possibly fair; it's very easy for any top-tier ranged champion to make interaction impossible in most melee 1v1 sidelane matchups on just 1-2 lifesteal items - something has to be given back to compensate. Tankiness might be an acceptable substitute, or else viable tank-ranged item paths. Marksmen have weaknesses too - they fall down awfully fast when any melee champion actually gets a chance to stand next to them - and that can feel very bad too, in the games where you don't get the team help you need to prosper, and end up getting repeatedly one- or two- shotted by any fed fighter with a decent gap closer.

I've often noticed that there is no such thing as an item that gives tankiness and attackspeed, for instance - item 3091 is situational at best, and while the proposed new changes would help, I'm pretty sure already they'd do it in a way that you're already alluding to being broken. There needs to be more viable non-drain tank survivability in the game generally, especially if tier-level drain is going to keep getting nerfed as a principle because it is so often problematic. Why is there no combination of armor or HP and AS? Why isn't there a viable tank build option for item 3070, especially now that the lineup has been made a one-of? Are there reasons that these kinds of items might break the game, or has it simply never been tried?

M Dragon143/31/2019, 4:21:29 AM2 votes

Why do melees need it?

Critmaster Garen3/30/2019, 8:37:20 PM2 votes

i think there should just be a global 20% cap on it.

BLIGHTBRINGER3/30/2019, 8:47:33 PM2 votes

Not all ranged users benefit from lifesteal very well as some melee champions.

Lifesteal amount depends on damage dealt, but the healing amount based on damage dealt can be increased thus the percentage scalling stat.

However if you are playing champions that have little damage like for example; Kalista (and her main damage comes from E Stack Rending), who will not benefit from Lifesteal as well as someone like Yasuo who even has an ability which applies on-hit effects (essentially a ranged auto attack, that can proc things like Sheen Passive) and benefits from lifesteal.

That's also the reason as to why Lifesteal is so efficient on Crit Users because they will naturally deal a lot of damage with their Crits.

But it's also why you see other Marksman (Varus, Kog'Maw) for example buy defensive items instead of Lifesteal because of how much they can't benefit from them. It's also because I think Lifesteal is restricted to Physical Damage dealt through basic attacks and any Magic Damage dealt through Basic Attacks doesn't count.

xDogMeatx3/30/2019, 10:09:04 PM2 votes

Yep ranged is too safe for being a drain tank plus all the protective items with support halo shields all over them makes you scream internally Stop peeling for that person they already have enough defenses.

While fighters have to go out of their way to grab that lifesteal from melee range deserves the full amount due to cc chain threat. Yasuo/riven deserves nerfs "great early game god late game" for some reason.

But yes: bigger the range less to you get. While also the closer you are to X enemy you get little more lifesteal due to proximity to target.