Why LP splashing is statistically trash, and how to fix it.

He mentoins this several times in his post.

Sounds like you were splashing LP from your placement games in your off-role, I've had the same experience as well. That's only for so many games though, I'd like to know how much LP you gain per win when your off-role rank is very close to your main-role rank.

I'm sorry for this haha.

By irrational, my personal opinion fits in here, but I'm talking about that support otp that picks vlad when he gets autofilled, gets absolutely shit on, but he still picks vlad again for whatever reason, and gets shit on again. I find it to be irrational that someone can get shit on so hard in their off-role. To me, going 0-27 by choice is a cruel and unusual punishment to inflict upon oneself, the people that do this are backwards, and don't give a shit about anyone's LP by nature.

--these players naturally exist in league of legends, and they will for a long time.. but they can't be used to blame a system that gives better incentives for players to dodge.

There are just as many people who 1.) never dodge, 2.) always dodge, or 3.) force a dodge upon their team.

These players pick out the option that suits them the most, with positional queues, most players should gravitate towards 2.) UNLESS, they are impatient, don't care if they waste their time in low-quality matches, or can play at a similarly high level in their off-role as they can in their main role. (LP splashing is so small, most cases, players don't benefit or lose much from playing in their off-role, they simply waste their time, which they WOULD ALSO be doing if they dodged and got a 30-minute timer. (theoretically, dropping this down below the minimum match time/expected minimum match time 8-15 minutes) would shift a great many people into 2.).

If positional queues are removed, which they are in the process of right now, players should statistically see a shift of players from 2.) into groups 1.) and 3.), trust me. you. do. not. want. this. I believe I've said this previously, Riot is probably basing their decision to remove positional queues on an increase in reports of trolls -this can be explained by players who give in to their emotions very quickly, and attribute problems they have to something new, which is an egregious confounding error, when you statistically look at how players should be making their decisions, the alternative system is much much much worse.

I'm going with my gut here when I say RIOT games doesn't have anything capable of determining whether a player trolled in their games. It would take too much technology, time and money. Instead they see an increase in reports of trolls, or posts on the boards blaming the system for a problem that has always existed (trolls, toxicity, negativity).

Through statistical analysis of the most inherent changes that come with positional queues, players should gravitate towards more positive decision making in champion select, and in turn create higher match quality and positive experience. The only alternative explanation for this is that dodge queue timers are too high, (as the new system renders LP penalties irrelevant, queue timers are what players weigh alternatives against.)

1.) Aside from the 10% of matches where a player should try their best to win in the autofill matches, this player decides to play them out instead of waiting for a queue timer. In some cases, they sacrifice a quick 3 LP in their main role to get into their next match faster. In others, they genuinely try to win and become more all rounded players -bad because specialization creates more competetive matches than players being able to play any position-

2.)This player decides to sacrifice his LP for the sake of his mmr. In the long run, this player will have the highest MMR, and the highest winrate. He probably gains more LP than he loses, because his rank sits below his actual skill level, but the matches he plays are at his actual skill level. --in the old system, dodge LP penalties are much more significant, so reverting back to it would create a much larger gap between rank and actual skill level (mmr), because most LP penalties are shifted to the off-role in the current system, where as all dodges go toward the same rank in the main system.--

3.)This player is the champion select troll that we all hate. If he doesnt get to play his yasuo, draven, riven, he won't dodge, he already dodged 7 times today, he's sick of waiting 3 hours a day trying to get his champ. Don't be surprised, the only way to get rid of this is to 1.) remove bans, 2.) allow both teams to pick the same champ, 3.) lowering dodge penalties -----4.) remove autofill (with the current system, the problem should be heavy dodge timers, so removing autofill actually isn't necessary, even though it could probably solve a lot of problems).

Conclusion: 3.) Should be MUCH MUCH smaller with the new queue than with the old, 1.) Should be MUCH MUCH smaller (which is good), but would be even smaller with lower queue time punishments. 2.) Should be MUCH MUCH bigger, dodging is good, you want people to dodge, because when you finally get into a match, it's not going to be a waste of your time.

A good system shouldn't sacrifice so much match quality to prevent abuse, the dodge penalties have been in place since the beginning of this game, updating them to be better --i don't know what LP penalties should be but timers should be reduced below 9-15 min-- at bringing negative players more in line with behaviors that create better match quality.

So the problem here is that when you increase the amount of LP splashing, the less positional queues become relevant, for example, if you're diamond 4 in both mid and ADC, and a win in mid = 20 LP in both roles, and a win in ADC = 20 LP in both roles, then there is no difference between the new queue and the old queue. (other than dodging penalties being lower)

As LP splashing currently is, it can only benefit consistently in 10% of matches, as explained in my main post. In the other 90% of games, there is no point in playing off-role matches, so your best off to dodge. (I gave an explanation as to exactly what LP you should and shouldn't play matches at. --this changes based on gains and expected splashing, but nonetheless I don't think it changes much--)

In your specific case, Person B is an asshole, you might ask me why? Well, the answer is that there are no LP dodging consequences for their main role, if they choose to go 0-10 in their off-role, hurting person A on their main role, well then they are just a fucktard.

Positional queues have such a marginal impact on the main role that it doesn't actually help to get people where they belong.

You would need to climb 7 divisions in your off-role to climb 1 division in your main role, which for most people is impossible, because you would be a higher rank in your off-role, than in your main role.

You might think that it makes it easier for people to fuck over 4 other people on their team if they get their off-role. But think about it this way, in the old queues, you lose 20 lp in your main role for losing in your off-role. YOU ALSO lose 3 or 10 LP respectively in your main role, if you dodge in your off-role.

THIS MEANS THAT INSTEAD OF THERE BEING NO INCENTIVES TO TRY, NOR A DISINCENTIVE TO DODGE, THERE IS NOW AN INCENTIVE TO FORCE YOUR TEAM TO DODGE!

So, some players will take off-role matches seriously, sure. But we will also be going back to the days of autofill players picking disco nunu to make you dodge so they don't get penalized.

I don't want to have 5 different roles either. The main essence of this post is for RIOT to address the pro's and cons of switching back to the old queues. The way I see it, simply going back to the old queues is going to hurt match quality for these reasons 1.) The GREATER IMPORTANCE OF AUTOFILLED GAMES 2.) DODGING PENALTIES GO UP IN EVERY AUTOFILL MATCH BY OVER 500% (this is through intuition, I think it's a good estimate 3.)GRINDINESS

1.) The lesser importance of autofilled games should be solved by itself, dodge penalties are lower, lower them even more and it should completely solve the problem.--- If you go back to the old queues, autofill games because more important, THAT MEANS, when players are autofilled in their 20% winrate role, they're going to pick disco nunu and force you to dodge, dodge penalties are way higher, so it makes way more sense for players to force it on their teammates instead of taking a big hit to their LP every time they get auto-filled. IT DOES NOT MEAN, that they are going to actually try.---

2.) So, you might ask me how in the hell dodging penalties go up by 500%. Let's say you're a Yasuo player and you dodge every time you get autofilled, or your champion gets banned. Every time yasuo gets banned, you take a penalty in your main role. Every time you get autofilled, you take a penalty in your off-role INSTEAD of your main role.

Reverting this change means that players screwed not only when their champ get banned, but also when they get autofilled. So, what will they do? They will shift the penalties onto their team.

For players that can play several champions but only one role, these guys dont get any dodging penalties for being autofilled, and they don't have to dodge in their main role.

Reverting the positional queues hurts these guys the most, and it hurts everyone else because they're going to shift autofill penalties to everyone else.

3.)Splashing is bad because a Diamond 4 player can win their first provisional match and get placed in gold 4, climbing up to gold 1 winning all of their autofill games. In what case does a diamond 4 player play any off-role at such a significantly lower level? This problem is the biggest reason positional queues are so grindy. It was implemented poorly.

Conclusion: We can go back to the old queues, but we shouldn't sacrifice match quality to reduce grindiness.

That being said, there are a billion things Riot can fix when switching back to the old queue, It's my job here to make sure they do it. If they listen, I think everyone will be happier.

I'm all for switching back to the old system, but the new system has some great benefits for everyone that we will all be missing out on. If RIOT decides to listen, a lot of the problems with the old system can be weeded out before the change happens.

Ok, so I'm talking about the change because it is a simple reversion of the queue.

Simply put, there were a lot of progressive benefits (invisible but real) if you look at in depth changes that the new queue offered that the old one does not have.

The reason I'm talking about it now is that it's relevant, and there are a lot of things that we can learn from analyzing the major differences among both queues, namely lower dodge penalties, causing a downward shift in players trolling in order to get their teams to dodge.

The massive amounts of reports and people complaining about their teammates not trying hard enough overshadow 1.) the statistics behind why the new queue is good, and 2.) Riot's lack of actual statistics for trolling numbers (they don't have AI that can detect trolls, that I know of, so they rely on player report numbers).

Upvoting because I feel you had some constructive stuff to say. But I'll elaborate..

1.) Yes, I do want to play league of dodging, better dogshit autofill players dodge and not get penalized, than dogshit autofill players make me dodge and I get penalized instead.

2.) I'm not sure what you mean here, an example would help alot.

3.) You can't rank up by playing against significantly worse players than yourself on your off-role. In fact, you can't rank up by playing against significantly BETTER players on your main role. Regardless, LP splashing seems to be 3 across all elo differences. (in my experience)

4.) Would you like it if someone forced you to eat butter?? Noone that doesn't want to do something should ever have to---- Taking away peoples choice makes people frustrated and promotes toxic behavior.

Autofill to decrease queue times is laughable, it decreases match quality and overall competition in the ladder.

People who want quick games should stick to blind pick. (don't down vote me for this)

Seriously, autofill is this shit where people get their LP sacrificed "for the greater good" (shorter queue times) which in turn drive down match quality. It's very similar to how ancient tribes would sacrifice their people to the gods in order to get rain for their villages.

5.) The old system was not fine. Having one rank was great, but autofill was shit, never getting to play your favorite champion was shit, and always having to dodge because people threaten you with disco nunu was shit.

6.) I've statistically proven that the new system does not promote a lack of trying, ACTUALLY DECREASES THE AMOUNT OF TROLLS, and DODGING IS GOOD.

SO, IF YOU WANT TO SAY OTHERWISE, I NEED MORE THAN JUST YOUR WORD, I NEED EVIDENCE!

You can show I've made a mistake in my statistics.

You can introduce new statistics that show real world data, (players actually trolling games) - this is impossible, so I relied on the variables that might be able to predict player behavior)

You cannot tell me people don't care about the off-role games they play. No normal person wants to go 0-15, it's not fun. I'd rather wait 30 minutes listening to music than have to suffer such a match. Blame the asshole, not the queue.

There's a balance to strike for dodge penalties, not having dodge penalties might be abused, but we've had the penalties for so so so long without them ever being touched. How can we say for sure that removing them or lowering them will have a negative impact instead of a positive one.