An amateur tries a Quinn rework

Teridax68·1/31/2018, 4:11:48 PM·3 votes·738 views

After a thread discussed the state of Quinn on Gameplay, it got me thinking about her as a non-main. With a microscopic 0.55% pick rate in top lane on champion.gg, and RIP status on op.gg, Quinn isn't doing well, and since release has received pretty mixed appreciation, with her rework complicating things further. From what I've seen, here are some of the more common issues players take with her:

  • She's stuck halfway between marksman and assassin, and isn't great at either: Since before her rework, Quinn has always both assassin and marksman elements that have been at odds with each other: she couldn't be allowed to deal too much burst with Harrier or her Q, because she also had a significant attack speed steroid, but she also couldn't deal the best DPS around, because Harrier + Q + her old Skystrike gave her a burst lead on other marksmen at the time. After her rework and the Assassin Update later on, she initially exploited Lethality well enough to become more assassin-y, but then had to have her burst toned down, with Skystrike in particular being reduced to a piddly 40% AD damage. Once Lethality got nerfed, her damage ended up feeling unsatisfying as a result.
  • Valor feels left out of the picture: This is probably the biggest thematic issue players took with Quinn when her rework hit, because swapping out between Quinn and Valor felt essential in order to emphasize the individual importance of each champion: in fact, the actual champion is Quinn and Valor, who are a team, yet Valor no longer gets the spotlight to himself at any given point. Also, the bird taxi looks awkward.
  • Quinn's kit often feels weak or too floaty even when it's strong: An issue that has persisted with Quinn is that a lot of her kit doesn't feel as impactful as it should be. Harrier's AI marks don't always feel reliable, her utility W doesn't mesh well with very combat-oriented basic abilities, and her E is notorious for sometimes completely throwing her in the wrong direction for no given reason.

Because of this, these are the goals I think a Quinn and Valor rework should aim for:

  • Maximize the feeling of teamwork between Quinn and Valor, and give Valor the spotlight he deserves.
  • Make Quinn's kit feel as crisp, action-packed and responsive as possible, while keeping it interactive.
  • Enable assassin and marksman builds separately on Quinn, allowing her to spec much more fully into either playstyle.

To implement these goals, here are the changes I propose:


Passive - Harrier: Quinn's abilities cause Valor to mark enemies as Vulnerable, revealing them for 4 seconds and resetting her basic attack timer against them. Her next basic attack against a Vulnerable target causes Valor to swoop down upon them as the shot lands, inflicting a guaranteed critical strike.

  • Notes:
  • Add or remove bonus critical damage as needed for balance.
  • AA reset might be too strong, but is there to allow Quinn to chain Harrier procs in quick succession even if she doesn't build much attack speed, as well as synergize with her W below for waveclear.
  • Guaranteed crit is intended to provide substantial bursts of damage for a Quinn who builds raw AD and Lethality (i.e. assassin Quinn), but not for a Quinn who builds crit and attack speed (i.e. marksman Quinn). For a DPS Quinn, her haste passive on W should provide her with a much stronger persistent attack speed boost instead.
  • The basic attack that triggers the guaranteed crit should be the same as a standard basic attack, and so should follow the exact same timing for animation canceling.
  • Valor should probably only swoop upon Quinn's main target if she gets Hurricane, though perhaps she could still get a guaranteed crit on more than one target at once.

Q - Blinding Assault: Valor flies out from the point of cast in a straight line, stopping upon colliding with an enemy and nearsighting all enemies in a small area for 1 second, reducing their sight to 300 units and removing their allied vision for the duration. All affected enemies are also marked as Vulnerable.

  • Cost: 50 mana Cooldown: 10 / 9 / 8 / 7 / 6 Range: 1025 Radius: 210
  • Notes:
  • Range, radius and nearsight effect unchanged.
  • Nearsight duration reduced, so that melee opponents don't get shut down as hard per cast, but cooldown reduced significantly later on to retain the same uptime, and mana cost no longer increases.
  • Damage and waveclear removed from this ability, but moved to innate and W, so keep on reading.

W - Tag Team:

  • Passive: Attacking a Vulnerable target hastens Quinn for its remaining duration, increasing her total attack speed by 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 / 50% against the target, and her total movement speed while moving away from the target by 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 / 25%.
  • Active: Quinn commands Valor to mark the target enemy as Vulnerable. Killing a Vulnerable target refunds Tag Team's mana cost and cooldown.
  • Cost: 25 mana Cooldown: 4 Range: Global
  • Notes:
  • Increase to total attack speed means it also increases Quinn's bonus AS from items, and the same for the total movement speed increase. This should help synergize especially well with items like Phantom Dancer, Blade of the Ruined King and Youmuu's.
  • Low cooldown is meant to allow Quinn to mark her target consistently enough to be able to always benefit from the bonuses if she plays well. For her marksman playstyle, this should provide her with a constant single-target steroid.
  • Global active range may be too strong, but the intent is to allow Quinn to mark a particular enemy for vision, for example to keep tabs on a jungler who just stepped on a ward, in addition to using the ability for a more reliable Harrier proc in combat.
  • Active refund on kill is intended to preserve Quinn's waveclear in view of removing her Q AoE. If Quinn should not have strong waveclear, this effect could easily get removed.

E - Vault:

  • First Cast: Quinn dashes to the target unit and latches onto them for up to 0.75 seconds. While latching onto her target, Quinn is untargetable, follows their movement, and can use Vault's second cast.
  • Second Cast: Quinn dashes off of the unit to the target location. If they are an enemy, they are also marked as Vulnerable.
  • Cost: 50 mana Cooldown: 15 / 13 / 11 / 9 / 7 Range: 525 (both casts)
  • Notes:
  • Range nerfed, knockback, slow and damage removed, cooldown increased early but reduced at max rank.
  • Added untargetability in-between dashes, but not during: this should allow Quinn's opponents to still punish her if she mistimes her dash, but should also allow her to use Vault to dodge enemy attacks, as the ability would normally suggest.
  • Made Vault a two-part cast to give Quinn more control over where she'd land, instead of relying on an AI that often doesn't do a great job of predicting her desired location. Also allowed the potential targeting of allies (maybe not needed?) to give Quinn more options for whom to dash off of, as well as let her do more things in teamfights that don't involve more damage, CC or utility.
  • Latching onto targets could potentially have Quinn hijack a teleporting enemy, instead of interrupting the cast, as well as let her follow their dashes. Should also still allow enemies to bring her into an unfavorable position if they dash towards their own team or turret, albeit in a more predictable manner.

R - Behind Enemy Lines: Quinn channels for 2 seconds, interrupted by taking crowd control or damage from champions or turrets. Upon completing the channel, Quinn switches to Valor, who has the following bonuses:

  • 50 / 75 / 100% increased total movement speed.
  • Unrestricted movement over units and terrain.
  • Unrestricted vision over terrain.
  • Untargetability to minions and monsters.
  • Automatically marks all enemy champions and large monsters within Valor's personal sight range as Vulnerable.
  • The ability to use Heightened Senses:
  • R - Heightened Senses: Valor temporarily increases his personal sight range to 2000 / 2500 / 3000 for 2 seconds.
  • Cost: 100 mana Cooldown: 90 / 60 / 30

Behind Enemy Lines has no cost or cooldown, but getting hit by an enemy champion or turret, or using a basic attack, Blinding Assault, or Vault, automatically ends its effects.

  • Notes:
  • Paying a mana cost just to access bonus movement speed with unlimited uptime feels weird outside of punishing Quinn for channeling in front of an opponent. Shifting it to a powerful scouting tool with much less uptime would likely make more sense.
  • Removed the ability getting canceled or otherwise mitigated by non-champions, because that mostly just makes it feel clunkier without really balancing it well otherwise.
  • The above is a net nerf to Valor's raw movement speed, but likely a buff to her mobility due to it allowing her to cross terrain freely. This is intended to give a feeling of unlimited freedom of movement (you'd be free as a bird, so to speak) in situations where it'd be healthy to have it (i.e. out of combat).
  • Second active, improved vision and auto-mark should allow Valor to scout while moving around, and thereby develop upon that facet of Quinn and Valor's theme and contribution to their team.

And that's it for the rework. The TL;DR is as follows:

  • Shift Quinn's damage to Harrier and give her more control over whom Valor marks.
  • Allow separate assassin and marksman Quinn builds. Going for raw AD and Lethality should lead to large burst via Harrier, going for attack speed should lead to massively amplified persistent damage.
  • Roll Quinn's scouting power into her ult, and focus her basic abilities on combat instead, so that she can provide strong utility while roaming, and otherwise focus on dueling in fights.
  • Adjust certain aspects of her kit to be less clunky, namely her Harrier-enhanced basic attack, Vault mobility, and ult interaction with non-champions.

Some concerns I have for the above changelist:

  • The numbers and balance are almost certainly off.
  • Complete lack of damage on abilities is a bit strange, not sure how this would turn out in practice.
  • I focused a lot on making Quinn feel smoother to play on the above changelist, but focused less on her counterplay, aside from a Q blind duration nerf. There's a risk she might become less interactive, especially in lane, and that might have to come with sacrifices as a result, such as the loss of the above suggested auto resets, or even nerfs to her range, health, mana, etc.
  • The above kit has a lot of vision, likely too much. Cutting some of it might be needed if it takes too much of Quinn's power budget.

What do y'all think? Keep in mind that, because this is obviously done without testing, the numbers are most likely off, so what's more important than the precise numbers is the intent behind the changes proposed here.

10 Comments

EssenceOfPoo1/31/2018, 5:26:17 PM2 votes

Enable assassin and marksman builds separately on Quinn, allowing her to spec much more fully into either playstyle.

Could you explain more how these kit changes would restrict her to either the marksman playstyle or the assassin playstyle?

The way I see it, being able to build lethality early for her burst potential allows her to snowball mid game and being able to proceed to building zeal final items allow her to switch to a marksman playstyle when it's much harder to assassinate squishies.

Azadethe1/31/2018, 5:09:05 PM1 votes

I think this is a wasted post. Quinn can be picked up by a first time leaguer and go 9/9/10. Her kit is fine, more accessible than it's every been, and most of the damage IS in Harrier. She can now proc Harrier 4 times in 1 encounter, where she used to only be able to use it twice. It's part of why she melts.

Her ult is always up, so she has a reliable 3 combo burst. On Lethality she can always proc a duskblade and a Statik Shiv and can nearly 1 hit every time, can 2 hit tanks.

It's cute to attempt to recreate a champ to your bias. But that kind of speaks to your gameplay more than the champ.

She has the 4th highest kills of all Tops.

P.S. you posted this exact same post about 1 month ago.