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@Meddler, What does Riot have against reverting Buffs that push champions/items over the edge?

Enlegacy·11/24/2016, 3:50:50 PM·65 votes·2,051 views

For example, the changes that made Rylai's gain 20 AP and lose 100 health. That doesn't go with the design for Rylai's, being a bruisery mage item, and makes unintended users, such as Syndra, Orianna, Ahri, Katarina, abuse the item for it's high AP and it's ability to make enemies never be able to dodge or escape any damage they have.

Or the recent Vayne buffs to her q, making it so that it gains 20% AD at max rank. The recent buffs to Blade of the Ruined King are certainly compensation enough for that, and if you would revert those buffs, it makes her significantly more healthy as not a 2 shot machine, but rather a high sustained damage tank killer.

Or for that matter, why does Riot have against reverting reworks that make a champion less healthy rather than more healthy, and admit you guys messed up? I have already heard that the main lesson you took out of the mage update was that you tried to do too much, and made some mistakes. For example, the main part of the Syndra update I would like to see reverted would be her W, as I feel the other changes were fine, but her W makes setting up high sphere counts and team wide stuns far too consistent. It makes it so that you can just go in, launch 3 spheres, and have a nearly unavoidable stun followed by at least a 6 sphere ultimate, which would have been nearly impossible to do on the old Syndra.

The old Syndra was more balanced because you had a very small time window to get off gigantic ultimates, which was rewarded with high damage and a feeling of satisfaction. To get team wide stuns you would normally have to charge up your sphere beforehand, then quickly ult a tank, then e. Basically, the mage updates make her far harder to balance because before she was less consistent, but now she is extremely consistent.

If you have something against reverting Syndra's rework, then at least consider lowering the W count to 2 instead of 3. 3 is a little ridiculous, while 2 might be manageable. Think about what the 3 sphere W replaced, it replaced an increase of her w slow ratio to 2 seconds. But it only might be enough to change her unhealthy game state.

46 Comments

Astôlfo11/24/2016, 3:58:45 PM42 votes

Admitting that they were wrong.

Ahristocats11/24/2016, 4:03:08 PM11 votes

Mordekaiser Xp passive destroyed his whole kit, and he would have been balanced without it Malzahar rework made him an other yorick Shaco rework made ad shaco trash Graves for reason, it's not reverted

MillForMe11/24/2016, 9:26:55 PM6 votes

There's a difference in viewpoints. If Riot makes a change, they aren't making it just to make it.

Buffs to champions are done with the purpose of making them more rewarding, while trying to avoid making them overbearing or overshadowing other options. If a buff pushes a champion over the edge into OP, you can either revert it, find something else that makes it OP and fix that, or find ways for others to deal with it. There's tons of options, and those options are what allow the game to stay fresh and evolve.

When Sejuani was meta, people were ecstatic. A few changes happened that pushed her out and everyone wanted her buffed to come back, but she was FINE. Not the best option, but she did what she did well and wasn't awful.

Reworks are meant to give champions a better identity. They take tons of planning, programming, visual effects, etc. You can't just scrap it and retry. You take the criticisms, take the value you want from them, and look for an ideal solution.

Riot isn't always going to make the best decisions. But I prefer that they try their best to not choose to REVERT a change, unless it's a small number change like an AP ratio or something. They fix issues, maybe too well, and either fine tune it, or look for bigger issues that caused the first problem.

AgentBlack11/24/2016, 6:45:04 PM6 votes

Because that's not balancing. The fact that Riot buffed or nerfed something means there's an issue in the grand scheme of things, no matter how small. Fixing those new problems as they come is how the game evolves. Reverting changes just brings back the original problem, which is lazy balancing unless reverting that change actually fixes the new problem (almost never, though somehow the boards haven't realized it, despite all of Riot's posts on the matter).

Obviously Riot cares more about profiting from the success of the game than hiding their balancing mistakes, so accusing them of just being stubborn is naive and petty. Let them do their jobs. They're way better at it than we are.

Tik11511/24/2016, 5:17:23 PM3 votes

Because they refuse to admit when they made a mistake

When they first reworked Cass they refused to say it was a mistake and spent a good part of a year re-reworking her, on top of that the guy in charge of said first rework ran off and hid when it was clear Cass players weren't happy with it instead of admitting he messed up, reverting the rework and trying again (Something literally everyone said they should do).

When they reworked Sona and completely destroyed her identity (THE buffing champion like how Soraka is meant to be THE healer champion) They not only nerfed her hard later one(Literally Nami does basically everything Sona does but with more safety, slightly less poke damage but everything else Nami does better then Sona) but refused to compromise with people wanting old Sona back (Like having the Auras but ONLY if people are standing in her snuggle zones, apparently that's not allowed even though it provides those windows of opportunity and exploitable weaknesses they proclaimed they wanted)

When they proclaimed "We're not bringing back solo Q" only to bring it back now and not apologize, if not for dynamic que (Which even now they believe they weren't wrong with it) but not saying sorry for proclaiming "Oh we're not bringing back Solo Q

Same with Sandbox mode

Same with Replays

Same with Kalista

When it comes to apologizing Riot has the "I'm Always right" mentality and will ether try to spin the mistake as the groundwork for an apparent improvement OR they'll try to distract us with something else ("oooh look! We have a new legandary skin out! Just ignore this thing we messed up!" kind of deal)

Viktorious Sayph11/24/2016, 9:18:12 PM2 votes

Viktor

He was balanced and not FotM before Mymu. They tried to make him battlemage but they failed. They made him stronger by time passes but also reliant on CCs.

If they wanted to make Viktor battlemage rather than burst mage, they could cut down his burst damage

#(NOT WITH DELAYING EVERYTHING ON THE KIT),

and giving him enough defense (Ms, Hp, Ar, Mr maybe all maybe some idk im not the balance team)

#so he wouldn't be burst mage and FotM, and even broken to RECEIVE 2 NERFS ON E 2 NERFS ON R AND NERF ON RYLAI

Oh and ^ALL THIS WHILE THE WHOLE PROBLEM IS Q LOL.

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

Toastersaot11/25/2016, 4:49:31 PM1 votes

KogMaw , although he is weak, AP Kog is back (for now) and that rework from Season 6 can be confined to history.

Critmaster Garen11/25/2016, 11:42:47 PM1 votes

the problem isnt rylais stats.

the problem is its fucking passive. the item became cancer when it was allowed to create permaslows with multi hit abilities.

i dont care if they keep the stats. just revert the passive to what it used to be.

Rito Staff11/24/2016, 4:23:30 PM1 votes

Don't revert BoTRK, it benefits Aatrox ;C

The problem with Vayne is the burst, not the BoTRK %current HP damage. The item is good on Vayne because of the attack speed, slow (and ofc everything else, but that's mainly it)

DunkinNoobs11/24/2016, 6:31:37 PM1 votes

Because Rylais is too ubiquious now to simply revert the change and hope it goes away. It won't. Gotta overnerf to get it out of meta and then buff it back later.

Sire Hippington11/24/2016, 7:41:05 PM1 votes

Actually, the current pbe changes ARE a revert of the vayne buff....

EROTIC RAID BOSS11/25/2016, 1:34:31 AM1 votes

They have in a few cases, like kogmaw.

Personally I don't agree with making rylais a weak AP item, with the nerfed slow I don't see the problem with letting it have AP, as it'll only be used by the champions with the consistent damage to keep that slow going, and everyone else will use Luden's.

As for syndra, the windows being so small probably made her an unreliable pick who spikes hard in specific circumstances and is otherwise not that great. that's not usually a good a design.

Usually they aren't just looking to improve the win rate of a champion, but to make a healthier gameplay loop. that's why often nerfs aren't reverted.

Dengeden11/25/2016, 6:56:24 AM1 votes

I can assure you mages would still buy it, just like they still by Abyssal despite the fact that it's supposed to be a "bruisery mage item". I mean I'm all for letting them revert it next patch, so I can laugh in your face when the builds don't change and then doing the right thing the patch after that.

Your comments on Syndra W are blatantly wrong. You've evidently only played against her. If anything, they'd need to revert her Q duration buffs as that would make her WoP more distinct. Not to mention the fact that tanks were and still are Syndra's biggest counters.

And you think Vayne should be good against tanks and nothing else. If you want a game with hard counters play DotA. Vayne has always outtraded you if she got 3 AAs of against you, no matter who you are. The only anti-tank scaling she has is her W.