Can I please get some context behind the new Taric changes?

macthechupacabra·Jun 28, 2017·3 votes·817 views

I don't have a pbe account, so I don't really have any other place to put this

Taric's been my boy for a while now, and although I'm not aware of his place in the meta right now, I'm very confused by these new changes. If you don't know, the changes are:

Taric Base Mana Regen Per 5 increased from 5 to 8.5. Mana regen growth Per 5 lowered from 1 to 0.8 Dazzle (E): Cooldown changed from 15 at all ranks to 17/16/15/14/13 Magic damage increased from 60/105/150/240 to 100/145/190/235/280 Stun duration changed from 1/1.125/1.25/1.375/1.5 to 1.25 at all ranks

.25 less stun and .2 less mana regen growth probably isn't worth crying over, but I don't see the reason behind them. Anyone have any context? Thanks.

15 Comments

RenownedWheat42Jun 28, 20171 votes

You get +0.1 mana regen by the end so it's not really a bad thing there.

I think the change on the stun duration is to make up for the damage buff.

ModKnightsKemplarJun 28, 20171 votes

It seems to me like they are trying to re-inforce his enchanter style.

If you look at the best Taric builds in "high elo" (plat+), you see that most Tarics that are successful are doing some combination of Face of the Mountain and Locket of the Iron Solari. Most people level up his E because of the increase in stun duration. This sort of build emphasizes the Warden aspect of his kit.

The downside of that build is that Starlight's Touch feels weak and Bastion feels irrelevant most of the time. What these changes do, essentially, is encourage you to level Q or W instead of E, since the stun duration doesn't go up anymore at all. If you level Q, you might be tempted to run a more enchanter-style build, as well, which is again re-inforced by the increased mana regen on early levels.

As a fellow Taric enthusiast, I am glad they are looking into this and I am happy, overall, about the direction. I have long advocated maxing Q first, and I'm hoping these changes make that even more viable. This might also make you think about using redemption earlier in your build, and stacking Ardent Censer on top of that. Depending on how these changes shake out, I could see Taric become a much better healer because of these small changes.

As it was, he really needed levels in E to make that ability useful; that is less true with these changes. The main takeaway is that E with one point is now as good as the rank 3 skill used to be, minus some damage (let's be honest, you don't care about that damage). That's a decent improvement. This is about making levels in Q and W more attractive by making levels in E less good.

I think. Someone else correct me if needed. Where's Fondling Gems at?

LyingOnLineJun 28, 20171 votes

I disagree. Maybe not about the intent, I can't speak to intent.

The result, on the other hand, will not be discouraging of Taric maxing E. Its cooldown goes down, its damage goes up, and even if it doesn't increase in stun duration with rank it already has a pretty good duration now.

Overall, it just looks like one huge ol' bunch of buffs.

macthechupacabraJun 28, 20171 votes

{quoted}

It seems to me like they are trying to re-inforce his enchanter style.

If you look at the best Taric builds in "high elo" (plat+), you see that most Tarics that are successful are doing some combination of Face of the Mountain and Locket of the Iron Solari. Most people level up his E because of the increase in stun duration. This sort of build emphasizes the Warden aspect of his kit.

The downside of that build is that Starlight's Touch feels weak and Bastion feels irrelevant most of the time. What these changes do, essentially, is encourage you to level Q or W instead of E, since the stun duration doesn't go up anymore at all. If you level Q, you might be tempted to run a more enchanter-style build, as well, which is again re-inforced by the increased mana regen on early levels.

As a fellow Taric enthusiast, I am glad they are looking into this and I am happy, overall, about the direction. I have long advocated maxing Q first, and I'm hoping these changes make that even more viable. This might also make you think about using redemption earlier in your build, and stacking Ardent Censer on top of that. Depending on how these changes shake out, I could see Taric become a much better healer because of these small changes.

As it was, he really needed levels in E to make that ability useful; that is less true with these changes. The main takeaway is that E with one point is now as good as the rank 3 skill used to be, minus some damage (let's be honest, you don't care about that damage). That's a decent improvement. This is about making levels in Q and W more attractive by making levels in E less good.

I think. Someone else correct me if needed. Where's Fondling Gems at?

I've always built him as a tank hybrid, going item 3109 item 2303 item 3190 and running full tank afterwards, making sure to stack lots of armor. The philosophy I've always had with Taric is that he makes a great aggro-magnet. His armor scaling passive keeps resetting his stuns and supporting abilities in an endless loop of EQWQ, yet he's too tanky to focus with his raw stats and shields. Seeing how the higher ups build more support-y support items, I feel like that would be a much less viable option. I feel like Building items like item 3504 and sacrificing more tank stats would relegate him to a back line position, where he would get little to no value out of his passive and dramatically extending his cooldowns in the process. Could you give me some summoner 13 on how a Taric would play with Items like these? Thank's for your time!

ModKnightsKemplarJun 28, 20171 votes

Well, I will definitely still build relic shield. Again, looking at stats, people already succeed building item 3504 and item 3107 on Taric. Because of his W, you can actually stay in the back line and peel for your carry (and probably should be doing mostly that, anyway) and have your W on a front liner to put your spells up there. I feel that a GREAT Taric will be able to help the frontline and the backline at the same time. That's one of those things that will separate decent Tarics from great Tarics.

I think my final build (assuming this is how it shakes out) will probably looks something like this: item 3401 item 2045 item 3107 item 3504 item 3109

You can easily substitute that Knight's Vow for a Locket if the game you are in calls for it, but that's kinda what I have in mind. Again, to take great advantage of Knight's Vow, you already didn't want to be very far away from your carry. Taric is tanky, but he was never much of an initiator. I don't think it's going to change his play that much, but it is a buff, and I am of the opinion that he needed one.

Big LincolnJun 28, 20172 votes

idk why they would want to do that, enchanter focus is the least fun part about him

why would i ever want to max Q first when the base value is so pathetic, especially for how taxing it is on my mana pool. and W will never be a viable first max because it's a % scaling factor; it'll always be a second or last thing

it's mostly just a big buff that he didn't need, to parts of him that weren't suffering anyway

ModKnightsKemplarJun 28, 20171 votes

I'm not so sure about that.

Taric isn't all that strong currently. He has a modest win rate considering that his player base remains small and, I would wager, pretty dedicated. Many Taric players have long been asking for lower mana costs on his heal, in particular, which is VERY strong in the right circumstances. This isn't that big of a buff, either, but it could support a playstyle that is stronger in the current meta (maxing Q).

As far as W goes, I also feel it would be much stronger if maxed first or second, and the [very, very] limited data on that seems to agree. His two highest win rate skill orders max W first. Not that it's very many games, but it CAN be viable under the right circumstances, I feel.

I'm curious about this comment, though:

enchanter focus is the least fun part about him

If you don't like the enchanter focus, why play Taric? Braum, Leona, and Alistar all do better as straight tanks. Out of the tanky champions in the support role, he brings the least "tank" to the table.

Big LincolnJun 28, 20171 votes

cuz im done letting riot rob me of my champs

ModKnightsKemplarJun 30, 20171 votes

Hey BL, you see the changes today? HUGE Q changes (I mean, you'll probably still hate them since they seem determined to make him an enchanter).

If you have anything else to add, I'm interested.

Big LincolnJun 30, 20172 votes

q max is probably the better choice now, or at least putting 3 points in E then maxing Q, something similar idk

he's going to be less fun but more freelo than ever, so i guess i cant complain

MerbstromJul 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I'm not so sure about that.

Taric isn't all that strong currently. He has a modest win rate considering that his player base remains small and, I would wager, pretty dedicated. Many Taric players have long been asking for lower mana costs on his heal, in particular, which is VERY strong in the right circumstances. This isn't that big of a buff, either, but it could support a playstyle that is stronger in the current meta (maxing Q).

As far as W goes, I also feel it would be much stronger if maxed first or second, and the [very, very] limited data on that seems to agree. His two highest win rate skill orders max W first. Not that it's very many games, but it CAN be viable under the right circumstances, I feel.

I'm curious about this comment, though:

If you don't like the enchanter focus, why play Taric? Braum, Leona, and Alistar all do better as straight tanks. Out of the tanky champions in the support role, he brings the least "tank" to the table.

You could also just play soraka or nami if you like enchanters. I'd say that it's the balance of his role as both an enchanter and warden that make him fun. And this shifts a lot of power to his enchanter side which isn't what all people want out of him, even if it's a buff for the current meta.

NachingJun 28, 20171 votes

Where is Q buff? Oh casually they forget.. It still weak

But the stun time is more relevant than a bit of damage more... Taric isnt about damage, he is about support team and the stun duration now is worst.. So he is worst support.

People will still maxing E to use it often... And the coldown now is increased at first levels, so more important now

Riot dont know make the players happier

Big LincolnJun 28, 20171 votes

riot wants to make a new op support

LõyaltyJun 28, 20171 votes

Taric gets bullied super damn hard in the laning phase. But when he does manage to land that double stun, he mostly relies on his adc following up than him being able to do some damage. I guess Riot is trying to buff him so that he can actually be aggressive in laning phase?

ModKnightsKemplarJun 29, 20171 votes

Mild update: new changes on PBE for this; I don't think they're done yet, but let's come back and discuss them when Moobeat is done, eh?