Why Dota Is Better

Korica Riftaxe·Sep 18, 2015·9 votes·1,670 views

AKA, a catchy title. But I really do think it's the superior game. Let me explain why.

I have now, over the years, sunk in about equal time in both games. About 2000 matches in League first, and then 1600 Dota 2 games. Having spent all that time in Dota, I tried coming back to play League occasionally and just can't do it. Here's a summary of why.

MOBILITY CREEP I've been on about this for a long-ass time. Here's a link to a thread on the old LoL forums where I delved into the math of Mobility Creep.

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3744640&page=1

The basic jist being, when the game first came out, only about 25% of the Champions in the pool had spells that granted mobility. Today, it's over 50%. I think Dota's, by comparison, is probably less than 10%. There are some INSANELY mobile Heroes in Dota, but the key part is, their mobility is core to their character. They cannot function without it. Many of these character have nothing BUT mobility spells, the rest are just passives.

Also, Flash ties into this. More on that later.

SUMMONER SPELLS (Flash) Again, I've been on about this for a long time. I think Summoner Spells and Runes/Masteries are more or less something Riot should have abandoned a long time ago, but my main gripe is Flash. It's just too good. It's so good that over 95% of all players use it. The entire point of the Summoner Spell system was to offer choice, but it's not a choice, because Flash offers more utility than anything else ever could. Riot could do SO MUCH to rebalance mobility creep and make early laning riskier by just removing Flash from the game and telling the players "Deal with it."

But they seem to be under the impression that if they remove Flash that the world will explode or something. I can't understand it.

Dota 2 has something similar to Flash. It's called Blink Dagger. Want to know why Dota's is balanced and League isn't?

Because you can't start the game with Blink Dagger. It doesn't give you a get-out-of-fail-free card in lane. It's an item, it's expensive, it takes up a slot while offering you NO STATS, only the ability to Blink. Also, it cannot be used if you've recently taken damage. No Flashing/Blinking over walls for you. It's primary usage is to allow initiators to jump into enemies to start fights, and it fits that role gloriously. It's not abused at all in the way Flash is. Spectate any Dota game and you'll only see maybe 1-2 people with a Blink per team. There are many character for whom a Blink Dagger is just straight up a horrible buy, because they can't really make use of it.

MESSING UP

I actually kind of understand this one, I just disagree with it. League of Legends is so much more forgiving of failure than Dota 2 is. If you mess up an ability it's ok, it'll be off cooldown in 10 seconds, and it didn't cost that much mana anyways. Oh you died? Don't worry, it's not a big deal, just come back and continue last hitting when you respawn.

In Dota 2, death has consequences beyond just missing out on experience and gold. You lose gold on death, which although frustrating at times, adds a huge layer of strategy when you realize you can actually use that as a weapon against your opponents. Killing a carry multiple times early isn't about getting yourself gold, it's about taking gold AWAY from the carry. You can literally STOP them from buying an item seconds before they were about to purchase it.

And when it comes to abilities, you can MASSIVELY screw up. Faceless Void's ultimate stuns EVERYTHING inside it, except for himself. He can accidentally stunlock his entire team. I have to admit I found it hilarious when Bard was released and the League community got it's first taste of an Ult that can actually be used incorrectly. You people don't even realize how common those sorts of things are in Dota. Some of the best ultimates in the game have cooldown of nearly 3 minutes and can easily be countered. You have to give HUGE amounts of considering to how and when you use the ability. More on that below.

STATS / SCALING

I never could have guessed how amazingly important the Stats mechanic was until I came back to League afterwards and saw what was misisng.

Personally, when I started League I loved their system. Ability Power was way more fun than "Strength" and "Agility", but over time, League started to shift away from it's original design. Ability Power was supposed to scale for all spells, and Attack Damage was only meant for Right Clicks. Then came Pantheon, and the age of the "AD Caster" followed. Soon Riot just scrapped their idea and said "EVERYTHING WILL SCALE WITH WHATEVER YOUR CHARACTER BUILDS". You do physical damage, you build AD, you do MORE physical damage.

The problem is that this creates stagnant gameplay. If an ability does about half of somebody's health early game, it's also going to do about half of their health late-game; because while they build Health and MR to counter you, you build AP and Magic Pen to counter them, and it all events out to mean ... absolutely nothing, except inflated numbers. Compare this to something like Dota, where a caster's high nukes are insanely powerful early game, but mean very little late game when people have bigger health pools or magic immunity. The nukes have their time and place to be useful, and your objective is to abuse that power while you can, not to just keep doing the same thing all game.

And then there's stats. You never realize how amazingly ingenious they are. It's a brilliant way to balance characters and particularly items. In case you aren't familair, here is how they work. Dota 2 has 3 stats: Strength, Agility, Intelligence. Strength gives health and hp regen. Agility gives attack speed and armor. Intelligence gives mana and mana regen. Every Hero has a unique stat setup of how much they start with, and how much they gain per level. Also, they have a Primary attribute. Each point in your Primary also grants damage.

So you can have an item like Heart of Torrasque (Warmog's of Dota) and yet it isn't overpowered the way League's Warmog's has been for so long. Why? Because 40 Strength is not equally useful to all Heroes. Everyone gets health from it, but only Strength Heroes get damage, which makes it much more useful on that. (In case you were unaware, Dota 2 has a large roster of melee carries, many of them Strength-based)

The key difference is that stats make an item more useful or less useful, but never USELESSS. 40 Strength is still a good deal of health, even for non-Strength heroes. This is as opposed to League of Legends, where you can buy Ability Power and it will do literally NOTHING for your Champion unless they have abilities that scale with it.

MECHANICS / META

I think the cardinal sin of League is the homogenization. All the character just feel so similar now. All the carries play the same. Riot enforces their strict meta with an iron first, shaping champion and item balance to enforce it. If you look at the pick rates in the most recent tournaments (LoL World Champions 2014 and Dota International 2015) you'll find this... Dota 2 has 110 Heroes. Only 37 were NEVER PICKED during the Main Event. If you count the Group Stage, then only 24 were NEVER PICKED. League of Legends had 120 Champs at the time. 63 were NEVER PICKED. Over half.

That's a startling large amount of Champions who are irrelevant.

And the reasoning is understandable. Riot wants the game to be easy for new people to pick up, they want people to spend money unlocking Champions, and they want the game to be competitive, and the end goal is that ANY lineup which fits their strict meta will have what it takes to win the game.

The trouble is, the only way you can achieve that ridiculous dream is to homogenize the Champions into being so similar that they no longer have unique flavor. No carry brings to the table something another carry cannot bring, so the only one you will want to play is whichever one currently has better damage numbers.

I actually had a conversation with a co-worker who plays Dota but has never played League. He was asking what the Champions were like. When I mentioned that most single-target abilities were reworked so that almost everything is skillshots, he became very confused.

"I thought you said League of Legends was simpler? How can it be simpler if you have to aim everything?"

I had to think about that one for awhile, it's a seriously legit question. But I finally came up with an answer.

It's simpler because aiming is the ONLY thing you have to consider. Almost all the abilities in League these days boil down to two little things: it does some damage and maybe some light CC. Compared to Dota 2, players in League have to give almost no consideration to manacost, positioning, timing, or any special mechanics an ability might have. It's just about making sure you hit the skillshot.

Yet again last night, I was trying to play a match with an old friend, and we struggled to put into words what exactly the problem is.

League of Legends isn't simple. There are a lot of complicated things in this game. The trouble is they're just so boring.

I'd like to conclude with a recent article from PC Gamer about why Rubick from Dota represents what's great about the game. (In case you don't know, Rubick is a support character whose Ultimate allows him to steal enemy spells and cast them at his leisure.) http://www.pcgamer.com/why-rubick-represents-the-best-of-dota-2/

48 Comments

Deep Terror NamiSep 18, 20159 votes

Why X game is better than Y game Because you prefer X over Y

That is the only argument there is.

insaiyanbaccaSep 18, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nARgz1Jf,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-09-18T02:54:36.805+0000)

Because you prefer X over Y

That is the only argument there is.

pretty much

Korica RiftaxeSep 18, 20152 votes

I think you'll find the giant wall of text above actually contains some analysis of game design, not JUST opinions.

Deep Terror NamiSep 18, 20152 votes

What's your point? A fact doesn't make one game better than the other. Your opinion of that fact is what does (and only to you). Are you daft?

DrNovaSep 19, 20151 votes

Bullshit it does. It contains opinions of why you think A is better then B. Hell some parts you literally say "this is boring". Nice analysis.

I disagree with every point you tried to make, which alone shows that it is just your opinion. I dislike Dora, and I could make a rather in depth post as to why. But most of what I dislike is things you like.

Opinions are like asshiles, everyone's got one.

The REAL part of this thread worth any discussion is why on earth you come to LOL boards and give us all your opinions like anyone cares.

You like dota, go play it. You already have the stupid elitist bullshit attitude so you were made for it. But don't bring your garbage here.

Bye. Someone lock this thread.

Korica RiftaxeSep 19, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Bullshit it does. It contains opinions of why you think A is better then B. Hell some parts you literally say "this is boring". Nice analysis.

I disagree with every point you tried to make, which alone shows that it is just your opinion. I dislike Dora, and I could make a rather in depth post as to why. But most of what I dislike is things you like.

Opinions are like asshiles, everyone's got one.

The REAL part of this thread worth any discussion is why on earth you come to LOL boards and give us all your opinions like anyone cares.

You like dota, go play it. You already have the stupid elitist bullshit attitude so you were made for it. But don't bring your garbage here.

Bye. Someone lock this thread.

So mathematical graphs showing the trend of mobility creep in Champion design is an opinion, not a fact?

Flash being used by 96% of all players, being seen in every game, despite the fact that's it's supposed be a "choice" is an opinion, not a factual observation?

Comparing pick rates from top-level tournaments is an opinion, not a factual analysis?

DrNovaSep 19, 20152 votes

Yes, all opinion because you try to use them to "prove" A is better then B.

I don't see mobility creep as a problem itself, I see it as evolution of the game, and while it can make things a little harder for non mobile champs, most all non mobile champs are still relevant. Most of the issues non mobile champs have aren't mobility, its outdated kits. So your mathematical anything doesnt support your assumption.

Flash being used by most people is also not proving anything. That doesn't prove A is better then B. Yeah its useful, so what? If you burn it its gone for a while. I fail to see an issue with it.

This picks crap, so? Dota had roughly 10 more champs picked then LoL. That's your argument?

You are trying to use flimsy crap to prova one game is better then another. Let's forget that preference is opinion, not fact. But nothing you have said is a strong argument for why Dots is better. Attempting to misconstrue the few actual facts you said (none of which have anything to do with quality) is just sad.

Every few months we get a dumb thread like this, as do the Dots forums, and as usual no one cares, gtfo.

/fin

Korica RiftaxeSep 19, 20152 votes

If you don't see a problem with mobility creep I'm going to go ahead and guess you didn't start playing until it was already the norm. It completely changed the way this game was played, for the worse. So many great Champions were left in the dust, and so many potential future Champions will never get made because their kits make no sense in a game where over 50% of the characters have high mobility.

If that doesn't make you sad I'm not sure what will.

The game offers people a CHOICE of multiple spells, and one of those choices is SO POWERFUL that literally every player feels like they HAVE to take it. What is it exactly about this that fails to register as bad game design to you? Imagine if 96% of all players in every game built the same ITEM. Riot would nerf or remove that thing so fast it wouldn't even be funny.

My argument with picks isn't "10 more Heroes got picked, therefore it's better" - it was an argument about percentages of the total pool picked, and WHY they were picked.

The WHY is very important. It's the crux of the entire argument.

I'm just going to repeat that reasoning WHY...

Riot wants the game to be easy for new people to pick up, they want people to spend money unlocking Champions, and they want the game to be competitive, and the end goal is that ANY lineup which fits their strict meta will have what it takes to win the game.

Let's say you have a pool of 20 characters. If they are all very diverse, each of them will likely see play at some point, because they each bring something unique. Each of them can be used to counter a specific type of enemy or strategy. They are all RELEVANT.

But if the designs are homogenized, if they all pretty much do the same thing, people will ignore whichever ones feel less powerful. Why would you ever pick an underpowered character when that character doesn't bring anything unique?

That's why League of Legends has "tier lists" and Dota doesn't. Because in League of Legends you can easily compare characters to each other directly, since they are so similar, and then choose the one which is superior.

You cannot do this in Dota because you cannot compare the power of two character who have little in common.

Go into a Dota lobby and ask "Who is the best carry?" and you'll get 100 different answers. Do the same thing in a League lobby and everyone will shout out the names of the current top 5 most powerful carries, because those are the only ones that matter.

Meep ManSep 22, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nARgz1Jf,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-09-18T02:54:36.805+0000)

Because you prefer X over Y

That is the only argument there is.

Every MOBA argument ever.

THIS Y GAME IS BAD BECAUSE IT DOESNT HAVE "Things in X game"

DWT12345Sep 18, 20154 votes

Says that all champions have no special mechanics

*Looks at the last 5 champions TahmKench Ekko Bard RekSai Kalista *

Lol, no.

Ra1dSep 18, 20152 votes

But all those champs came out in the last year

Korica RiftaxeSep 18, 20153 votes

You have a big fish that can "eat" somebody and spit them up 5 feet away? Dota 2 has a rock giant that can throw people across the screen. Dota 2 has a character whose ultimate is a passive that creates permanent copies of himself which you must micro, because they can all cast the same spells, and if any single one of the copies dies, they all die. Dota 2 has a character who can steal any enemy spell and cast it back at them.

Your threshold for what qualifies as "special mechanics" is very low, being from League of Legends.

OnegarionSep 18, 20152 votes

WHile yes those are bigger than leagues it comes witha price. DOTA isn't focused around abilities. They are more of a supplement to items. As in your main form of damage isn't abilities; while league has its main form of damage comes from abilities. Most things revolved around this fact and could you imagine throwing those same abilities in league where abilities are core and spammable. This makes DOTA2 more big fights (from having seen the Invitational) and about picks with its items doing a lot of what leagues abilities are. League on the other hand is more about fighting constantly in small times over objectives in a smaller map.

In Dota 1 spell rotation will run you oom taking away a lot of your power on some Heroes. league can go through multiple rotations on even some of the most mana hungry champs. So while both have Mana management there is more to managing in League because you have enough to watch unlike Dota where you just need to use your spells very sparingly. This allows for stronger abilities and More passive abilities as well in Hero kits.

RysophageSep 18, 20152 votes

so the only diversity in LoL has been over the past 10 months or so? that's pretty sad. This game is 6 years old.

frigginmurlocsSep 22, 20151 votes

Udyr is a better example of unique mechanic and he is nothing but attack modifiers

disregardableSep 18, 20153 votes

The last time I played Dota 2, Pudge hooked me from the "fog of war", I had no escape, and he killed me instantly. I really have no desire to play after that. As much as the game sucks for ADCs right now, it'll never suck as bad as it does in Dota.

That's a really short response to a really long post. To be honest, there isn't much else to say to it.

Korica RiftaxeSep 18, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Very Toxic Jinx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nARgz1Jf,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-09-18T02:59:15.638+0000)

The last time I played Dota 2, Pudge hooked me from the "fog of war", I had no escape, and he killed me instantly. I really have no desire to play after that. As much as the game sucks for ADCs right now, it'll never suck as bad as it does in Dota.

That's a really short response to a really long post. To be honest, there isn't much else to say to it.

The last time I played LoL, Fizz ulted me from behind a wall, I had no escape, and he killed me instantly.

I'd hardly call these sorts of things a reason to quit the game. You had one bad experience. This does not reflect everything the game has to offer.

Sightless66Sep 18, 20151 votes

Yeah, but let's be real, Dota is waaaaaay more about the "you died literally instantly because your positioning or vision was bad" than League is. The way a fight is initiated is a way bigger deal in Dota than it is in League.

RysophageSep 18, 20153 votes

Dota isn't for baddies that don't ward. sorry that's 80% of the entire LoL community.

Sightless66Sep 18, 20151 votes

Dota is for smoking and blowing people up without a hint.

I didn't say it was a bad thing. It is just the way the game is.

KONO RUBICK DASep 18, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Very Toxic Jinx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nARgz1Jf,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-09-18T02:59:15.638+0000)

The last time I played Dota 2, Pudge hooked me from the "fog of war", I had no escape, and he killed me instantly. I really have no desire to play after that. As much as the game sucks for ADCs right now, it'll never suck as bad as it does in Dota.

That's a really short response to a really long post. To be honest, there isn't much else to say to it.

pudge can't kill instantly unless you have 360 hp

ZephyrDrakeSep 18, 20153 votes

if you like Dota that much more then go play Dota instead. Why are you here? oh right because you just want attention

Korica RiftaxeSep 18, 20156 votes

{quoted}

if you like Dota that much more then go play Dota instead. Why are you here? oh right because you just want attention

I'm here because I was bored, and my fond old memories of League sometimes make me want to give Riot some advice on their terrible game direction.

ZephyrDrakeSep 18, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Korica Riftaxe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nARgz1Jf,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2015-09-18T13:20:36.045+0000)

I'm here because I was bored, and my fond old memories of League sometimes make me want to give Riot some advice on their terrible game direction.

"terrible game direction" sorry but no, nice try troll. You were not bored you just wanted attention, go play Dota if you like it that much more. You have no "fond memories" you just have "please give me attention! i need it so badly!" Both Dota and League take a very different approach to things, they might be in the same genre that doesn't mean they are the same game. You are nothing more than a troll wanting some attention

Korica RiftaxeSep 18, 20154 votes

My Youtube Channel begs to differ - I used to post videos of funny LoL moments. I have tons of fond memories. I used to love this game.

You don't get to question my experience, I started playing when Galio was released. This game used to be a lot of fun.

ZephyrDrakeSep 18, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Korica Riftaxe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nARgz1Jf,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-18T16:47:55.449+0000)

My Youtube Channel begs to differ - I used to post videos of funny LoL moments. I have tons of fond memories. I used to love this game.

You don't get to question my experience, I started playing when Galio was released. This game used to be a lot of fun.

good for you now go away and play your little Dota. I could care less about your USELESS fond memories

Korica RiftaxeSep 18, 20154 votes

{quoted}

good for you now go away and play your little Dota. I could care less about your USELESS fond memories

You seem rather angry.

ZephyrDrakeSep 18, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Korica Riftaxe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nARgz1Jf,comment-id=000600000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-18T18:42:24.273+0000)

You seem rather angry.

you seem rather trollish, you know you are not making Dota or yourself look good in any way shape or form when you have to come to another game and be all "look guys this is why that game is better than this one!" it makes you look desperate but whatever keep wasting time here in the inferior game and not the clearly superior one

Korica RiftaxeSep 18, 20153 votes

I don't think it's a waste of time to try suggesting ways in which something you used to like could be improved upon. I'm sorry that you feel so negatively about criticism.

ZephyrDrakeSep 18, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Korica Riftaxe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nARgz1Jf,comment-id=00060000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-18T23:47:21.308+0000)

I don't think it's a waste of time to try suggesting ways in which something you used to like could be improved upon. I'm sorry that you feel so negatively about criticism.

this is not "criticism" it's you pretty much coming here and saying "hey guys! this game is so much better here's why! now come and play this other much better game instead of this one!" I'm sorry you think this is "criticism" in any way, shape or form

ParcevalSep 18, 20153 votes

Interesting. Definitely a point that Riot needs to continue to balance, though it softens some arguments in 5).
True, flash is overpowered. I've posted on this matter: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/Fjh0r99x-improve-forgotten-summoner-spells That said, blink dagger is basically a required item... so I'm not sure how that's better.
This is a point in favor of League.
This argument is filled with fallacy. By developing a diversity of scaling trees you allow players to remain relevant throughout a game with a variety of tools. This is actually a weakness I've had with DOTA since it's WC3 days. Perhaps you prefer this environment, but I can say unequivocally that scaling stats promote a wider meta, not less. But even if we disagree on that point, it certainly promotes a more balanced tier of influence. This means that skill has more opportunity to shine than luck.
Your 'never picked' argument is intriguing. Though you're comparing game states a year apart. I'll be curious to see how this year's worlds compares. Of course, what's interesting, is that you're also wrong. A more homogenized game would result in what you're describing, the stricter champion set actually means that certain combinations have a significantly higher chance of winning, ergo, they're different (unlike DOTA). Your aim argument is forced, and completely insufficient, opinion flags are all over that.

Overall, it appears your comments can be easily construed in favor of League (1-1-3). It's fine that you prefer DOTA but these reasons are severely lacking to sway a nonbeliever.

Korica RiftaxeSep 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

This argument is filled with fallacy. By developing a diversity of scaling trees you allow players to remain relevant throughout a game with a variety of tools. This is actually a weakness I've had with DOTA since it's WC3 days. Perhaps you prefer this environment, but I can say unequivocally that scaling stats promote a wider meta, not less. But even if we disagree on that point, it certainly promotes a more balanced tier of influence. This means that skill has more opportunity to shine than luck.

That's definitely how you'd think it would play out, but because Riot has pushed towards making everything scale softly, it ends up evening out to a power curve that is virtually meaningless. Allow me to elaborate.

It used to be that many things scaled at almost 100% ratio, so that abilities with low numbers (such as Master Yi's old heal) weren't very impactful if you didn't build for it, but if you DID, they suddenly became absolutely amazing, which made it a worthwhile tradeoff for not building AD.

Now-a-days most things scale at 50% or less, so that an ability which does moderate damage early game will still only deal moderate damage late-game when you and your opponents have full builds. Your AP and Magic Pen is countered by their Health and MR, and it evens up to mean almost nothing. Psychologically you feel like because it does double the old damage that it's twice as good, but in reality, your overall combat effectiveness has only barely improved.

Compare that to something like Dota's Aghanim Scepter, which instead of providing generic power to all abilities gives the buyer a unique bonus to their Ultimate, which can at times be game-changing for that player. Things like converting the damage type from Magic to Pure, reducing the cooldown from 20 to 0, etc.

{quoted}

Your 'never picked' argument is intriguing. Though you're comparing game states a year apart. I'll be curious to see how this year's worlds compares. Of course, what's interesting, is that you're also wrong. A more homogenized game would result in what you're describing, the stricter champion set actually means that certain combinations have a significantly higher chance of winning, ergo, they're different (unlike DOTA). Your aim argument is forced, and completely insufficient, opinion flags are all over that.

I think if you look back further you'll still find the same. I think the average spread for big League tournaments is that about 50% of the pool is untouched, whereas in Dota it's about 30%.

The very interesting thing in Dota is that the Heroes who are and aren't picked are often very unexpected and the choice to pick them is often NOT driven by them being recently buffed or nerfed. Rather it's about whatever over-arching meta the teams at said tournament choose to employ. (Yes, Dota has randomly changing metas, instead of just the same one for years being enforced by the game-runners)

If the teams decide to run Pushing strategies, you will find most picks will fall into either Pushing or Anti-Pushing, and anybody who is bad at either of those things will remain unpicked.

I think I can prove that this does in fact line up with my point about homogenization. The more homogenized character design is, the less diverse picks you will see.

Because...

Let's say you have a pool of 20 characters. If they are all very diverse, each of them will likely see play at some point, because they each bring something unique to the table. Each of them can be used to counter a specific type of enemy or strategy. They are all relevant.

You cannot do this in Dota because you cannot compare the power of two character who have little in common.

Order of TalonSep 18, 20152 votes

It is obvious that you took more time into your analysis than most other people that play Dota and compare it to League. I can respect you for that, and even agree with you on some level. With how mobile the champion pool has become I would have to agree that flash is not that needed, but when the game first came out and there was very little mobility I can see why it was introduced.

However, in my opinion League is the better choice. When I played Dota I was overwhelmed by the instant access to ALL of their heros that I had no idea what the hell I was doing, and the game play itself, again in my opinion, is not new player friendly. You have to sink in hours to figure out what you have to do to optimize your play, and let's be honest here who here but the most hardcore players will put that much time into a game? There are a few things that I like in Dota that I would not mind seeing in league, like the stats of strength, agility, and intelligence, but with how concrete League has become with AD, AP, armor, and magic resist I do not think they will change that anytime soon if ever.

If you like Dota then by all means play what you like, but it is just too geared for highly competitive people that can spend the time to learn the basics. Where as League can be picked up very quickly and is casual player friendly.

Korica RiftaxeSep 18, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Order of Talon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nARgz1Jf,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-09-18T04:18:25.852+0000)

It is obvious that you took more time into your analysis than most other people that play Dota and compare it to League. I can respect you for that, and even agree with you on some level. With how mobile the champion pool has become I would have to agree that flash is not that needed, but when the game first came out and there was very little mobility I can see why it was introduced.

However, in my opinion League is the better choice. When I played Dota I was overwhelmed by the instant access to ALL of their heros that I had no idea what the hell I was doing, and the game play itself, again in my opinion, is not new player friendly. You have to sink in hours to figure out what you have to do to optimize your play, and let's be honest here who here but the most hardcore players will put that much time into a game? There are a few things that I like in Dota that I would not mind seeing in league, like the stats of strength, agility, and intelligence, but with how concrete League has become with AD, AP, armor, and magic resist I do not think they will change that anytime soon if ever.

If you like Dota then by all means play what you like, but it is just too geared for highly competitive people that can spend the time to learn the basics. Where as League can be picked up very quickly and is casual player friendly.

They came up with some nice solutions to those problems.

You aren't allowed to start going into normal Matchmaking until you've played through the tutorial, and after the basics are covered, you can play what is called "Guided Bot Matches" which covers lots of other actual in-game scenarios.

After that, you can queue for "Limited Heroes" matchmaking, which is just like normal games except the pool of Heroes is cut down to 22 of the easier Heroes for new players to use. There is no penalty for leaving Limited Heroes games and AI bots will take over for anybody that leaves.

MLDzXnRRRSep 18, 20152 votes

Aside from 90 % of the heroes pool who are like the old Sion , Annie and Garen Dota has better heroes, right...

Items are super expensive and if you die as support being focused every time, you have no items whole game - walking all the time with brown boots and several wards is very fun...

Permabashing has no real counterplay. It's very fun to be stunned from a projectile then permabashed.

Splitpushing is way too easy in Dota, because the map is so big, you can see that they use tp scroll and gtfo before they catch you. Items that are must buy every game like BKB and Blink (even carries get blink, if you don't have escape or need initiation).

The turnrate is like playing with lag, the game feels "SLOW".

RNG!!!! - people claim that DOTA is more strategic - there are things like crits, evasion, chance to stun, chance to ministun.

Manaburn can be annoying, because most skills cost half your mana and if you don't build mana + mana regen as a caster, you are useless.

The pick rate of heroes is similar to this of LOL - visit playdota and see all the threads about fotm op heroes... (seeing every game Sniper or Troll was normal, now is Leshrac + other nukers)

If you count all competetive LOL only stuff like Nasus, Trynda, Heimer is never picked this season, because is too risky to execute (you can see the Chinese and Koreans to play heroes like Yi, Katarina etc ).

There is no surrender and the game may be over 5 or 10 minutes in, if your team feeds, but the enemies don't wanna finish and camp you in the spawnfountain...

Pluses of DOTA : Custom games (which are still not very good atm) Offbuilds are not trolling (If I build AP Corki in LOL, my team will probably report me, but caster Gyrocopter is ok build in DOTA) More items with actives Micromanaging multiple units People are often less toxic than in LOL

CrossetteSep 18, 20152 votes

"Pluses of DOTA" Custom games. We have them. They work. They're good. Offbuilds? We can do them. I've never been reported for my 80 AP Pantheon games. Items with actives? DoTA is too item-based, while we actually need to use our champion's kit to do things. Toxicity is in every community. Everyone in DoTA is afraid of VAC bans and Gaben.

Korica RiftaxeSep 18, 20153 votes

I think you are misunderstanding what is meant by Custom Games. Dota now has a map editor that lets users make their own custom games modes. There are thousands of them. Some of them are incredibly well designed, lots of them are faithful recreations of favorite WC3 maps like Line Tower Wars and such.

CrossetteSep 18, 20152 votes

Two words.

Steam workshop.

Only reason sharing like that in a massive community is possible. Increased funding and stronger servers to support it.

RisenDarkKnightSep 18, 20152 votes

While increased hero diversity is nice (as is not having to grind ip), I personally found dota to be WAY less fun then league. Firstly, mana costs seem to be universally way higher than in league (300+ mana for many ultimates late game) and mana regen seems much weaker and harder to buy. This means , many champions are constrained extemely hard by mana, so much so that you often only use auto attacks for 5 + minutes because if you cast a spell or two, you won't have enough mana for a gank/all in. I hate not being able to cast spells a lot as it makes the game extremely boring IMO. Sure there's not a ton of strategy in tossing skillshots back and forth in lane, but it's way more interesting than just using autos. Another issue I have with dota is items are way more powerful. One game, I played crystal maiden support. I didn't do particulary badly, and I built tank items. However, the enemy zeus got fed. Zeus's ult is like karthus ult in leauge. While you can't build ap in dota, you can buy refresher orb, an item that instantly refreshes all your cooldowns. So everytime zeus's ult and refresher orb came off cooldown, I instantly died wherever I was on the map from full health. That is bullshit that can never happen in league. No matter how fed karthus gets, he can't just delete the enemy support from full hp that has built health and mr with only his ult. Another issue is how snowbally dota is. League has comeback mechanics with shutdown gold and farming with abilities from range, gaining a lot of income passively, etc. In DOTA since you lose all your gold on death, one badly timed death while you were saving up for an expensive component can cost you the game with no hope of comeback. Since nearly all of your income is from kills/farm, and the enemy can deny your cs ( buy killing it themselves) you basically lose enormous amounts of gold and get nothing if you're getting zoned in lane. Add to the stonger items in dota (there's a commonly built item that makes the target immune to magic damage/cc for 10 seconds!, items that grant stuns, and a risky items that gives 300 ad (ad is worth about the same as in league so 300 is ridiculous). So a gold lead means even more than league at least for carries. IMO league is more fun and action packed.

Korica RiftaxeSep 19, 20154 votes

Well this is gonna take awhile to work through...

Trading skillshots in lane is indeed probably more fun in the sense that it makes the game feel more action packed, but if it never leads to anything meaningful happening, it's kind of a dead end. I'd rather experience/see one really important event than a hundred meaningless ones.

This is usually the way it goes in Dota 2, where people conserve their mana until the perfect moment and then unleash everything they can, resulting in at least one person dying. As compared to League, where you trade skillshots until eventually somebody gets low, and then they just Recall and walk back to lane. (Or they almost die but then Flash away, because the get-out-of-fail-free-card called Flash is so exciting to watch.)

If you were being insta-killed from FULL HEALTH by Zeus when building tank items ... I'm going to have to assume you didn't understand what was happening because that's literally impossible. The damage dealt by his ult is flat, which means any tank items (health or magic resist) results in an enormous cut in Zeus' ability to kill you. His Ult does about 300 damage, and a basic health item gives you 250. The magic resist item called Pipe of Insight gives you a shield that absorb 400 magic damage.

If you actually understand the mechanics and responded appropriately, Zeus can NEVER take you from 100-to-0, even with Scepter and Refresher.

(Oddly enough, Zeus is one of the most common complaints I hear from League players as to why Dota is dumb. I guess when you take a concept like Karthus Ult and make it instant, and you don't really consider the context of how abilities differ in Dota, it sounds really OP ... but it's not. Barely anybody even played Zeus until recently, and that was due to a change to his W which allows it to be used as an on-demand stealth detector.)

I definitely agree it's no fun when somebody snowballs out of control in Dota and you're 15 minutes into the game with just boots and a wand, but the rubber-banding you receive from taking that player down is much bigger than League. Killing a player who is significantly ahead can result in you instantly gaining something like 5 levels and 1500 gold. It's really not that uncommon for people who are behind to just play incredibly defensive and turn the game around as soon as they take down the enemy who is out of control.

You do not lose all of your gold on death. Gold is split into two different categories: reliable and unreliable. Reliable gold cannot be lost on death, and is earned from bigger stuff like player kills. Unreliable gold is gained from last hitting. This basically means the only players you can really rob significant amounts of gold from are the people who spend most of their time farming. AKA, carries.

I hope this was informative.

RisenDarkKnightSep 19, 20152 votes

I understand why you like dota more and I'm not denying it's fun just I prefer league in my limited dota experience.
I assure you getting 100 to 0 by zeus is quite possible. Crystal Maiden has 906 health at lvl 15 and I was probably only around lvl 10 because we were losing that game. Zeus had Aghanim's Scepter and refreshor orb so his ult deals 1280 damage (640 refreshed then another 640). The 1280 reduced by the 25% leaves 960 damage which was more than enough to kill a low lvl crystal maiden even with some extra heatlh. I dont' remember what item I built for magic defense but I built whatever I could towards what my experienced DOTA player friends told me to buy. I didn't have much income as the support on a losing team.
If you compare it to leauge, Karthus ult does 550 base damage at lvl 16. With a deathcap, void staff, luden's echo, and sorcer's shoes it will do around 850 damage whereas a lvl 10 sona with have about 1350 base hp. That's not even close to lethal, and even with 6 items karthus can't 100 to 0 anyone with his ult unless they are lvl 1 and he is 16.

Korica RiftaxeSep 19, 20152 votes

That's a good number analysis, on paper it sounds like I should be possible. But in 1600 games, I've seen plenty of Zeus' build Scepter/Refresh and cannot recall them ever bringing a person from 100 to 0 unless that person was underlevled from being AFK.

Certainly sets up easy kills with other global abilities, but never kills them outright.

Most people will just buy the 500g Magic Resist item whenever they can, simply because Zeus is in the game and it's an insanely gold-efficient defense.

frigginmurlocsSep 22, 20151 votes

I've seen it done with help from a post rework Bloodseeker

KONO RUBICK DASep 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I understand why you like dota more and I'm not denying it's fun just I prefer league in my limited dota experience.
I assure you getting 100 to 0 by zeus is quite possible. Crystal Maiden has 906 health at lvl 15 and I was probably only around lvl 10 because we were losing that game. Zeus had Aghanim's Scepter and refreshor orb so his ult deals 1280 damage (640 refreshed then another 640). The 1280 reduced by the 25% leaves 960 damage which was more than enough to kill a low lvl crystal maiden even with some extra heatlh. I dont' remember what item I built for magic defense but I built whatever I could towards what my experienced DOTA player friends told me to buy. I didn't have much income as the support on a losing team.
If you compare it to leauge, Karthus ult does 550 base damage at lvl 16. With a deathcap, void staff, luden's echo, and sorcer's shoes it will do around 850 damage whereas a lvl 10 sona with have about 1350 base hp. That's not even close to lethal, and even with 6 items karthus can't 100 to 0 anyone with his ult unless they are lvl 1 and he is 16.

zeus can't ulti ref ulti without having mana items, cause it costs 450+450+375 mana=1275 mana, nice try thought. Crystal maiden also builds glimer cape which gives 30% magic resistance. and in dota 2 void staff doesn't exist

Cowgirl EdSep 18, 20152 votes

i have to say i really liked dota2 when i tried it, but fuck i've been playing this retarded game for a lot of time and i'm kinda fond of it now. a kind of fond you have with a retarded friend or something

HopFroggerSep 18, 20151 votes

I really like a lot of your analysis, but it kinda boils down to this: League of Legends is simpler. The simplicity of it makes the team play more engaging and more rapid. I've played DOTA since it was a mode in WC3, and got over it. Why? Mainly because I disliked the mechanic of hanging out in lane gaining passive gold until it was time to base, while denying exp from opponents. It's just not as fun. The fact that you can get hit by regular abilities a screen away and die immediately is also just not fun. LOL took DOTA's core concept and improved on it.

The one thing I completely agree with you about is the use of Flash. I think the game would be better without it. The fact that you can seriously punish someone for being out of position is slightly lost by having a get-out-of-jail-free card every couple minutes. That said, this further supports the fact that League is simpler. And that's why I play it.

Korica RiftaxeSep 18, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I really like a lot of your analysis, but it kinda boils down to this: League of Legends is simpler. The simplicity of it makes the team play more engaging and more rapid. I've played DOTA since it was a mode in WC3, and got over it. Why? Mainly because I disliked the mechanic of hanging out in lane gaining passive gold until it was time to base, while denying exp from opponents. It's just not as fun. The fact that you can get hit by regular abilities a screen away and die immediately is also just not fun.

I'm going to guess it's been awhile since you played because I have no idea what you are referring to.

If your time was spent engaging in a no-last-hits deny-fest the game has changed a lot since then. I spend most of my time trying to kill people. As support.