You talk about "counterplay" but you have a champion that is 100% immune to slows all the time. Why?

PyxelDust·Mar 22, 2015·3 votes·944 views

Who is that? Kalista. Not only does she have the ability to autoattack WHILE moving, something that's generally the antithesis to an autoattack character. But she also has a stun and an oncommand slow; albeit you have to autoattack them or hit them with your q. The problem i have with the character is that she is completely immune to any slowing effect you put on her because her movement range with her passive is not relevant to her current movement speed, instead to her boot level. I cannot understand how a mechanic like this is considered "balanced." It makes worthless any engage potential because she can do damage WHILE running away, then turn around and kill you before you can even touch her.

The suggestion i have is that kalistas jump range is not just based on her boot level, (where early game she still would have a smaller jump range) but also based on her current movement speed. such that if someone applies a slow to her, it reduces her effective jump range. Not a completely crippling range decrease like (jump range is equal to the current movement speed %) but rather something that would force kalista to use Rend to escape instead of merely auto attacking away from someone.

I know there will be people out there that will say, "she has counterplay, hard CC". But that weakness is not nearly made up by the champion being immune to any movement speed slow placed on her. I also do realize that auto attack speed reductions also reduce her mobility.

23 Comments

KhristophorosMar 22, 20152 votes

She's only immune to slows if she has an enemy in range to attack. If you catch her out with a slow, your team can easily walk up and focus her. Yes, there is the possibility that she will be able to dash to safety once somebody gets in range, but that is the same as any other champion with a dash. Hopefully you have other CC to apply once you get in range so she won't be able to dash more than once. So I don't see how her dashing is such a problem inherently.

To me the problem is she has too much attack range for how much in-combat mobility she has. She should have to commit harder because of how difficult she is to fight.

Sir YamazukiMar 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

She's only immune to slows if she has an enemy in range to attack. If you catch her out with a slow, your team can easily walk up and focus her. Yes, there is the possibility that she will be able to dash to safety once somebody gets in range, but that is the same as any other champion with a dash. Hopefully you have other CC to apply once you get in range so she won't be able to dash more than once. So I don't see how her dashing is such a problem inherently.

To me the problem is she has too much attack range for how much in-combat mobility she has. She should have to commit harder because of how difficult she is to fight.

Other adcs don't get the dash on a passive, if you slow an Ezreal he gets punished for it if his E is on cool down, where as Kalista simply doesn't care because she dashes away again. Lucians E simply removing slows was a problem, and then they make one immune to it, which seems silly to me.

AriafluxMar 23, 20152 votes

Confirmed by Riot that she dashes are slower when slowed.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/XdEfV8w1-kalistas-dash-speed-is-affected-by-slows

redniwediSMar 22, 20151 votes

She moves with her attack speed. Putting a movement speed slow on her is therefore useless. Try using an attack speed slow instead if your goal is to slow her down.

Then again you could also just kill her with some range, she's not exactly tanky you know.

The5lackerMar 22, 20155 votes

Ah yes, all of the thousands of AS slows out there in the game completely unattached to MS slows.

redniwediSMar 22, 20151 votes

Does it matter if they are attached to one another? An attack speed slow is an attack speed slow regardless.

The5lackerMar 22, 20152 votes

And it's still necessary IN ADDITION TO A NORMAL MS SLOW to slow Kalista down at all. Because if you just slow her AS...*she can still run. *

redniwediSMar 22, 20151 votes

Most attack speed slows come combined with a move speed slow already. The only two I can think of off the top of my head that don't have a move speed slow attached are Frozen Heart and Randuins.

The5lackerMar 22, 20151 votes

Yes: And there are dozens of MS slows that don't come with AS slows that Kalista is immune to.

redniwediSMar 22, 20151 votes

Yes, it's already been stated multiple times that movement speed slows are all but useless against her.

The5lackerMar 22, 20151 votes

So why are you talking again? You just said that most AS slows are attached to MS slows, so it's not like she's more vulnerable to something in exchange for being immune to something else. You just admitted she has no trade off for being immune to the most common form of CC in the game.

redniwediSMar 22, 20151 votes

At this point I'm more interested in why you're talking. All I said to the OP was to use an attack speed slow over a move speed slow, or just kill her outright. Seeing as how most Kalista players don't typically build any movement speed outside of boots I thought that would be fairly good advice to someone who started a discussion on slows effecting her.

Let's get one thing straight. I don't like Kalista. I've tried everything I can think of to figure out how to beat her with the immobile tanky champions I play, and simply cannot manage it. I figured out Zed, Fizz, Yasuo, Gnar and most of the other super annoying champions, but Kalista is just out of my reach. For this reason I do not support her current position when it comes to balance.

Now, you're calling me out on admitting that "she has no trade off for being immune to the most common form of CC in the game". I never said anything to the contrary. I would actually support a nerf that makes her pay a price for having her movement speed and attack speed so intertwined, yet you make it sound like I'm defending her, which I am clearly not. I am a huge supporter of making the best of any situation, so I prefer to give what little advice I can instead of pointlessly complaining about champion balance.

TLDR: Don't accuse me of anything while you're putting words in my mouth.

The5lackerMar 23, 20151 votes

So you're saying "Just do what you'd do against any other ADC with the full knowledge that half of what you'd do against any other ADC isn't going to work in the slightest." Do you realize how worthless of a statement that might be?

OP didn't say "Kalista is literally immortal." OP said "Kalista is functionally immune to MS Slows." Which is true. You have contributed absolutely nothing to the conversation.

redniwediSMar 23, 20151 votes

I was going to write another long post here. You have a knack for infuriating me, which really shouldn't surprise me. I'll just sum it up in a list and ignore the rest of this thread.

You likely realize it already, but the way you take a post apart and put it back together so it says something completely different than what the poster meant makes you look like a complete asshole.
Stop only replying to parts of a post that you can belittle. This is a trolling tactic and you know it. It's not exactly new behavior from you, but you have to outgrow it eventually, right?
Fuck you.
Have a wonderful evening.

The5lackerMar 23, 20151 votes

That's not long at all. And I didn't rework your post to say something different. You listed a counter for Kalista. I mentioned that that counter isn't unique to Kalista and doesn't change the fact that MS Slows don't phase her in the slightest. You proceeded to have a mental meltdown.

Akane CubiMar 22, 20151 votes

Pick Nunu
Press E.
Yay.

The5lackerMar 22, 20151 votes

completely unattached to MS slows

Reading: It's something people do. Occasionally.

PyxelDustMar 22, 20151 votes

The problem i have with Kalista is that the general counter to adc's (tanks, and tanky bruisers) cannot generally touch her. and if she is having trouble, she can just pull in a stun with the support.

redniwediSMar 22, 20151 votes

That's a problem most of us have, however slows won't fix it either way.

PyxelDustMar 25, 20151 votes

I's not talking about "Fixing", i'm suggesting that she gets a pass in terms of balance when she gets a movement slow applied to her. By forcing her to use Rend instead of just doing damage to get away. For example, if olaf hits someone with his axe, he is going to meet up with you if you just attempt to walk away; (intuitively you apply a counter slow/stun/other cc effect to get away). However, kalista isnt forced to use Rend to escape, all she has to do is apply damage to you to escape

Troy242621Mar 22, 20151 votes

You stop defending Kalista's design right now. No. No. That's a BAD RedniwediS.

redniwediSMar 22, 20151 votes

I'm not defending her design at all, I think it's an abomination. I simply think people should not complain if they bring the wrong tools for the job. Range and burst damage do the trick, so if you can't fit that into lane against her pick a safe bottom lane and make sure those tools are found elsewhere on your team.