Dear Riot, about AD casters

ChroniclerC·3/15/2015, 8:26:07 AM·1 votes·1,548 views

Dear Riot,

Why do AD casters exist?

No, seriously, hear me out. In a game with a stat directly called "Ability Power", why are there characters for whom the Power of their Abilities are completely unrelated to this stat? Champions who are dealing the majority of their damage through abilities, but these abilities are having their damage boosted mainly through stats other than Ability Power (some times receiving absolutely zero AP scaling). I mean, yeah, obviously I'm mad salty about them as a player, but I can't even fathom the design decisions behind them. As a player, it strikes me as intensely unfair to AP mages to have these other "mage" characters who can then just punch you in the face should their abilities fail. (Or, just as egregious, heal off damage after a skirmish via Lifesteal while most other mages just have to suck it up or recall.) And as someone who enjoys game theory, it seems mechanically inconsistent - breaking what feels like one of the core rules of the game - for no apparent reason.

If one of ya'll has the time, I'd love to hear some of the process that went into inventing this paradoxical class of characters, especially as to why they wouldn't have worked with traditional AP scaling.

13 Comments

67chrome3/15/2015, 9:28:59 AM4 votes

As a player, it strikes me as intensely unfair to AP mages to have these other "mage" characters who can then just punch you in the face should their abilities fail. (Or, just as egregious, heal off damage after a skirmish via Lifesteal while most other mages just have to suck it up or recall.) And as someone who enjoys game theory, it seems mechanically inconsistent - breaking what feels like one of the core rules of the game - for no apparent reason.

The game-design reason?

Range.

Barely any AD casters actually have much range, the vast majority of them are fighter and assassins with a reach of 125. Short-ranged mages like Ryze still reach 700 units with the bulk of their kit, and mages are also home to the longest ranged, strongest poke champions in the game (Morgana Lux Ziggs Xerath ).

With a significant lack of range, melee champions just need something in their kit to offset that disadvantage. With original fighter/assassin champions like Tryndamere and Yi, Riot tried giving them an absurd level of AA DPS, but that came with massive design issues in that the damage potential of ranged champions is so high as-is going overboard seems excessive, and placing that Phys damage all in auto-attacks just doesn't serve the game well. Auto-attacking really hard is brutal in a 1v1 duel, where such sustained DPS is easily negated to 0 in the midst of a team-fight, where burst would better serve the assassin/fighter-assassin/fighter's intended combat movements.

Hence - AD scaling on abilities. This allows more overall damage than ranged classes due to how armor and MR items are set up (as armor items hit physical damage and auto-attacks, and magic resistance items tend to hit magic damage and abilities). AD casters innatly bypass 1 of the 2 qualities of most defensive items, giving them effectively more damage to match the significant drawbacks of being melee, but without that damage going crazy overboard. Their QWER bases are often the same as mages and marksman, they're just slightly tougher to counter-build. Also - setting up their damage in more cooldown-heavy places over sustained DPS allows them to have a more even performance between duels and team-fights, maintaining the QWER burst necessary to function while wadding through a barrage of AoE slows, while still having bursts of power you can try playing around in a 1v1.


As for the life-steal bit: a wide number of AP scaling champions can lob things from such a distance they have little reason to need sustain, as they can pose a threat without being in any danger themselves. As abilities are often bursty over sustained - you also don't need to expose yourself to a danger zone for much time. Even with medium/short range mage like Annie - you skip up to a ~600 distance spot, unload everything while incapacitating your foes, then immediately back off before they can respond.

For most AP champions - mana sustain allows them to be safe enough to bypass needing HP sustain. Once team-fights happen and it would be nice to sustain through a fight so you can deal sustained damages, AP champions have Zhonya's Hourglass for a burst of survivability so you can burst in fights, and with enough CDR occasionally burst again.

It's also worth noting hear that the spell vamp is available in larger quantities than life steal through items.

disregardable3/15/2015, 8:31:11 AM2 votes

I think it needs to be noted that AD Casters have typically weaker than normal abilities and attack speed, so that they're designed to be used in conjunction (unlike other types, which are entirely ability or auto attack based).

H3x3n34/27/2015, 2:52:20 AM2 votes

I completely agree with the OP. AD casters make little to no sense, especially when you consider that a large portion are manaless (zed, riven, lee).

As far as the range argument goes lets take a look at Zed and Lee:

  • Lee's q has a range of 1100 on an 11 to 7 second base CD with a combined BASE damage of 340 (lvl 5) + 8% of the targets missing HP and 180% bonus AD scaling.

  • Zed's q has a range of 900 and travels through units on a 6 second base CD. His w has a range of 550 and can also cast his q, so if you tap out a quick w+q his effective range is 1450. If you are able to land both shurikens the combined damage is about 350 (lvl 5) + 150% AD scaling.

  • On a side note, talon's w has a range of 600 and he has a gap closer with a 700 range.

So yeah, the "AP casters have better range" argument... I'll let you decide but it doesn't seem to me like going AP affords you much benefit in regards to range, especially given that most of the long range AP casters are extremely immobile and depend on that distance as their only form of sustain.

My biggest issue with AD styled burst assassin/tank/brawler/rage inducers is this, AD was originally designed to increase the impact of attacking, however it is not the ONLY way to increase the power of an AA and therein lies the problem. There are several other statistics that can further up the damage inflicted through AAs, namely critical strikes and attack speed. These substantial power buffs are not AVAILABLE to an AP caster. AD casters are also largely given gap closers and ways to stick to their targets through stuns, slows and or knockups. This means that as an AD caster you can deal substantial burst damage AND substantial sustained damage by unloading all of your abilities upfront, closing the gap and then auto attacking between CDs for additional damage. As an AP caster you are largely SOL when your abilities are on CD and due to most of them having limited mobility you are forced to just take the AA damage to the face.

The design of the laning phase is another area that grants fairly substantial benefits to the AD caster over pretty much any other class in the game. Most AD casters have substantial wave clear abilities AND substantial AA damage. This means last hitting is trivial and since lifesteal does not require a resource AAing affords them near infinite sustain. This makes trading with an AD caster very difficult as they can poke and shove just as well as an AP caster can with easier last hitting and free sustain.

There is also the issue of itemization. It's much easier to stack large amounts of AP than it is to stack large amounts of raw AD so score one for the AP casters. However, because bruisers/off tanks exist (Garen, Olaf, Iri, Nasus, etc.) there is a plethora of defensive AD items (maw is particularly egregious) designed for them that are very effective on AD casters and that are not available to an AP build. It is substantially easier to build defensive stats and maintain a high level of damage through AD than it is to do so through AP. Combine this with the insane amount of mobility that and outright defensive skills (I'm looking at you Yasuo, Lee and Riven) that Riot loves to shove onto AD casters with the aforementioned free sustain (lifesteal) and they can become incredibly hard to kill as well, often surviving full rotations from the burstiest of burst mages to go on and slaughter carries at will.

So to answer the original question of the post, "Why do AD casters exist?", I don't know. My suspicions are that Riot loves to watch you suffer, however it's more likely that Riot just thinks that it makes the game more interesting and furthers their stated goal of making the experience slightly broken and imbalanced. I personally ban them out when I have the chance and if not I try to pick very specific counters. I would be happy with mages staying mages though by having most if not ALL abilities scale with Ability power. At the very least change the nomenclature of AP to MP (Magic Power) or MD (Magic Damage).

SoundChaosDebug3/15/2015, 8:38:03 AM1 votes

I play talon like an AD caster, but who would you call ad casters? Original post never named any champions as an example.

Frost the Reaper3/15/2015, 8:33:37 AM1 votes

You also forget most of these "AD Casters" Are people like riven, who's pure strength is what should be applied to their damage. Think of it this way if you will:

You have two types of people: A Mage and a Soldier. These two people use their abilities (Which is just more along the lines of things they can overall do) in two entirely different ways. Mages who rely on magic to do damage naturally would have to have something to aid them in increasing that damage, while the soldier needs to rely on physical might. So for riven: Who is an Ex-Noxian Soldier, she naturally would rely on Physical might over Ability power because she has no reason for ability power.

sortitus3/15/2015, 9:40:14 AM1 votes

OP: As far as I can tell, this was Riot's reasoning as well. Tristana was a good example of this until her rework gave her a massive AD ratio on E. As far as I know, Sivir's Q was also an AP scaling spell. It seems to me that they used to release or at least balance characters around having many viable build paths. Most recent champions don't have mixed ratios, and they destroyed Rek'Sai's AP build instead of balancing her around it.

I think it would be interesting if there were more AP ratios on skills, especially the utility aspects like Ashe's E giving more vision with AP. Unfortunately, Riot seems a bit too focused on professional play and making strong role-specific champions than giving existing mechanics more depth.

Knight SoIaire 3/15/2015, 9:46:33 AM1 votes

the "ability power" is just a name thats why the more fitting name would be magical damage amplifying stat but that doesnt sound as good on the other hand ad should be physical damage amplifying stat

BeatzBoyFTW3/15/2015, 8:28:51 AM1 votes

Well there's AP casters Syndra Cassiopeia , and even AP autoattackers like Azir Teemo , so why not let AD be even with AP people? Is that your point?