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The jungler is not a failsafe for when you're losing your solo lanes.

TILTMASTEREXDEE·7/3/2016, 8:10:55 PM·91 votes·6,509 views

If you're a solo laner and you blame your jungler for any one of these reasons (or more):

A. you lost lane when you die when the other jungler ganks you because you don't ward (wards aren't optional in case you somehow didn't know) B. you lost lane because you didn't respect your laner, play aggro up his ass constantly by shoving and get subsequently punished C. he fails a gank because you picked something that can't help him lock down the opponent easily D. you lost lane by outright feeding your opposing laner and you continued to build raw damage instead of a defensive build while constantly whining why he's not ganking E. you lost lane because you somehow managed to throw away the lead he got you when he ganked for you 3+ times (like wtf) F. you lost lane because you just died to other mid/top without jungler help on their side

THAT IS YOUR OWN FAULT, NOT HIS

No, his job is not to gank your lanes over and over again. No, his job is not to get your lanes fed. No, his job is not to win your lane for you. I don't get why so many people go into ranked and expect to win with this kind of mindset. He has a lot more responsibilities for the team than just ganking 24/7 and he shouldn't have to fix the damage you caused when you fed mid/top. Don't treat your junglers like **** and start learning how to play self-sufficiently/smarter.

92 Comments

Eedat7/3/2016, 8:28:40 PM45 votes

LOL. WRONG OP.

I can definitely 1v1 the enemy top laner who is double my cs, 2/0, and has 2 levels on me. F**k it! I'll even do it in his creep wave! OP noob confirmed hahahaha look at this amateur hahaha

solidmagus7/3/2016, 11:43:49 PM11 votes

This goes both ways though. If the way the matchup plays out is afk push for the opposing laner and the jungler does nothing about it, then that's on the jungler. That's pressure on the map that the jungler is allowing to occur for what? CS? For 3/4th's of a turret? Probably not worth. And if you think it's worth, prove it on the map. The thing that tilts me the most is when my jungler doesn't gank and is behind on CS against the enemy jungler. What were you doing all game?

EndlessSorcerer7/3/2016, 8:12:55 PM9 votes

I had an ally die three times before I finished my first clear by 4:00 (without either jungle interfering) and try to blame me for it.

Thankfully, the rest of my team were not idiots and knew better.

ActivatingEMP7/3/2016, 9:53:08 PM9 votes

What if he tries to gank multiple times and feeds my laner? Does that count?

Itadaki Seieki7/3/2016, 8:36:29 PM7 votes

Actually, in all fairness, there is a standard for solo lane and jungle.

I ALWAYS tell my jungler, " I might have issues in my lane, so you might need to help a little bit. "

After that point, if I don't get help it is somewhat the jungler's fault. If I ward correctly and I play it safe and the enemy is pushed up, a gank or two to alleviate SOME pressure would be nice.

WutsKraken7/4/2016, 12:00:12 AM6 votes

Here's the thing, it is not a jungler's job to gank a lane endlessly. But if the following occurs:

The enemy is mindlessly pushing with no wards while the jungler is healthy and nearby

The laner is pushed all the way to tower and being harassed under tower

The laner is in serious danger of being towerdove by the enemy jungler while his own jungler is nearby

Then that jungler better damn well move in for the gank or countergank

As a jungler, I dislike nothing more than a laner who mindlessly pushes with no wards and gets ganked Meanwhile as a top laner, I dislike a jungler who is nearby yet does not observe these very obvious signs

k wìx7/4/2016, 10:07:03 AM5 votes

A. you lost lane when you die when the other jungler ganks you because you don't ward (wards aren't optional in case you somehow > didn't know)

Even with good ward placement, some junglers will still successfully gank your lane - people get caught and die - it happens to the very best of us. If their jungler is bot 3+times, and they have taken our first tower, and lets say.. we've died once under turret to pressure, I'd say we're doing decently. THAT is not your fault, but you should be applying pressure elsewhere. I'd definitely be letting you know that the jungler has become a problem bottom at this point.

I generally agree with all of your points except this one. The jungler plays a pressure game - more than anyone else, it's his business what goes on in every lane. If our bot is getting crushed because of repeated jungler ganks - you better be applying pressure elsewhere - or you are absolutely partly to blame.

Nami in Bush7/4/2016, 12:19:04 PM5 votes

If I am standing at my tower and enemy jungler is sitting in the bottom lane bush for 4 consecutive minutes then I can complain to my trash jungle.

Mandang07/5/2016, 6:20:26 AM4 votes

I hate when jungle mains make these sort of arguments, because jungle doesn't have any specific responsibilities. If you're gonna look the other way when top lane gets rolled, don't complain when ADC and support stay in lane to farm as your jungle gets invaded. Is donating buffs one of jungle's jobs, or is it something jungle mains lecture laners about not expecting? Hell, I even see jungle mains complain about getting called out on missing smite. It's gotta be easy to tell everyone else to take responsibility when you're a role that thinks it can't be held responsible.

Anyway, the long and short of it is: It's a team game. You can point the finger all you want, but if you could have helped a lane and didn't, that's a choice YOU made, and you're responsible for it. Additionally, anything their jungle does that you're not doing is you "losing your lane".

As for your list, sure, you pointed out a bunch of extreme cases in which a laner fails in isolation. It gets a lot murkier once you really consider how the different roles all interact though. Maybe their jungle makes a really good play to get the enemy mid ahead early. This mid then presses up mid (a rather safe lane to do so in), and ganks top. Now top can be behind by no fault of their own, nor from a direct jungle gank, and yet the action of their jungle (your "lane opponent") has indirectly put your top behind. Who's to blame there?

Palmeiras SerieB7/4/2016, 12:47:24 PM3 votes

This thread is pure circlejerk

Serika Zero7/4/2016, 6:56:12 AM3 votes

Side note: The jungle is not a failsafe for when you're unable to trade or last hit.

The thing is, there are just as many bad junglers as there are mid laners, or top laners or bot laners. The next thing is, some champions HAVE TO BUILD OFFENSIVE, even if the enemy is ahead. Examples: Riven, Fiora (thx rito for tank fiora nerf), all Assassins, all ADCs.

The nextttt thing is. Sometimes you die to a gank of the enemy jungler. It happens. And at this time, it would be great if your jungler could do something: gank (everyone knows what this means), counter jungle (take a camp or two from the enemy jungler on the opposite side of the map), go for an objective (red, blue, dragon, baron, herald)

ps:

E. you lost lane because you somehow managed to throw away the lead he got you when he ganked for you 3+ times (like wtf)

This is the reason A. and B. happens.

Also to be fair. Whenever I play Yasou (which I'm an average to ban yasou since i can't really practice), the enemy jungler CAMPS my lane for the entire game. Whenever I play AGAINST Yasou, My jungler is MIA from my lane. Its reaaaaally annoying

Pierce The Veal7/4/2016, 11:24:09 AM3 votes

I agree to all of this,

Just remember to not expect me to help fight a counter jungle if you're not helping me fight a ganking jungler (when you're near enough to help me of course).

I wouldn't even be doing it to spite you, I would be doing it because I wouldn't be able to leave lane for fear of falling even more behind after being camped.

Otherwise if their jungle is out of my lane and you don't gank, no problemo, as long as that means we're getting dragon.

Llanite7/4/2016, 11:41:32 PM3 votes

The jungle's job is the same as everyone else - to win the game, which involves winning your lane AND helping other lanes win.

You might argue your "job" is to AFK farm your jungle and watch the world burned. I won't try to fix yours, but do keep in mind a losing lane cannot turn the table by itself, which is why people call it "losing". It is the norm that jungle is REQUIRED to assist losing lane, unless you are late game carry like Tryn, Yi, Vayne or Twitch.

Crazy Chatter7/4/2016, 3:14:46 PM2 votes

What if the fucking jg only cares to farm and never gank? I've once had a jg who once fkin did raptors while I was fighting a yasuo under tower w one hp. Then, he let the yas get away.

Hige7/4/2016, 1:49:34 AM2 votes

I have a set of questions for you.

  1. What's the jungler's job?
  2. In the case that one or two lane looses, how does it affects the jungler?
  3. In the case that ALL lanes looses, what should a jungler do?
  4. in average, how many times does the standard jungler faces the enemy jungler 1 on 1?
  5. What do you think ganking is?
  6. What do you think Leashing is?
  7. How many wards does the average jungler buy?
  8. Do you tax lanes after ganking?
DeathBurst7/4/2016, 8:39:09 AM2 votes

I think the important message that Jungle mains should teach on this board is that:

  1. They don't owe any gank to anyone. Ganking is simply one of the easiest way to get gold if the circumstances are right, so sure, let's get that gold. But there isn't any obligation to gank ever.
  2. They especially don't owe you as many ganks as the enemy jungler. If the enemy jungler ganks a lot, that probly means the circumstances were right for him, which almost always mean the circumstances were bad for your own jungler, because you were pushing, etc., and that he was right to not gank you. (The exception is when you are perma-pushed under tower and are lane-ganked from the first bush when the minion wave finally bounce on your tower and you think that finally you'll be able to get a few CS safely. But that's a very rare occurrence.)
Phenyxs7/3/2016, 8:32:47 PM2 votes

I never get so lucky. When I jg it is always my fault and really love it when I come to help and ping there lane they stand there and watch. When I lane and mostly top I try, I don't ask for help much. I may say and point out being camped and if jg decides to come top or is top then cool. If Jg is top I may ask for tower watch till I get back from getting items. He chooses not to then ok. Most cases I will ping a Jg off when coming to my lane and will let them know free kill. People also don't understand what it takes to Jg, item builds and the right time to gank. I have answered calls for ganks and realized not the right time. Tell them to back off play safe I be black. Going in blind just could give them a double or triple. But in League the blame falls on someone. I admit when I Jg I try to help as much as I can and end up paying for it. I always hear, reporting you, you suck, and I lost lane cause Jg wasn't here. At same time Jg needs to farm, get Dragon, deal with other Jg champ and there is 2 other lanes. I hate it when the game starts and they ping right away. Seriously. I got away from Jg due to that.

Vistha Kai7/4/2016, 1:44:10 PM2 votes

C. he fails a gank because you picked something that can't help him lock down the opponent easily

Yeah, that's my fucking fault, he's trying to force a gank, that will most likely end up in his or my death.

Get off your high horse. A jungler can fuck up too.

Darkslayer857/4/2016, 3:14:07 PM2 votes

No, no, no, no and no.

It is the jungler's job to maintain map pressure and thus they need to gank their lane.

If a laner is pushed, I move into position to countergank. If a laner is behind, I move into position to gank. If drag comes up, I move into position to contest.

Unless they're already completely fucked in lane, I will gank, and still maintain steady in terms of levels.

Coming from a jungle main, I know what the fuck I'm talking about.

sphinxthelion77/4/2016, 5:32:04 AM2 votes

So true. Dont know how many times Ive been flamed when 3 lanes are going down and everyone is bitching that I didnt gank their lane. Well guess what? You're responsible for YOUR lane! And I can only gank one at a time and YOU need to set them up, and probably help me kill them too.

OMG E! I dont know how many times that's happened! I was playing a game where I killed mid 4 times FOUR TIMES in 10 minutes or so, and he still got fed and spiraled out of control. My mid fed him so hard, and then blamed me.

"He has a lot more responsibilities for the team than just ganking 24/7 and he shouldn't have to fix the damage you caused when you fed mid/top. Don't treat your junglers like ** and start learning how to play self-sufficiently/smarter." love it.

Pr0Meister7/5/2016, 2:49:22 PM2 votes

I have one question to jungler mains:

Why do you waste time waiting for the laner to initiate when the laner has been playing def so far and/or doesn't have cc. Even if I am an Ahri mid, suddenly rushing that Yasuo to line up a charm, after cowering under tower, usually makes him go red alert and just run away. YOU are the surprise attack junglers, and usually you have some sort of engage/stealth/cc.

Please go in first- especially if the laner is half hp or lower and the enemy more or less full. Cause I sure as hell am not riskingto get bursted only to see you still sitting in that brush jugling daggers.

jaymc11307/8/2016, 11:32:37 PM1 votes

Diamond 2, ex master tier jungler here chiming in.

Op, the sole reason for the jungler to exist is as a failsafe for laners, losing or winning. His one job is to babysit the lanes and provide map control as this is the role with the greatest flexibility and map influence over the course of the game.

If a jungler ganks your laner and that laner dies and all your jg did was farm in this time frame, guess what. Its you JGs fault for making a strategic misplay. He should have either been prepared to countergank or have ganked another lane at the exact same time to force an objective trade.

A laner who plays aggressively and always pushes, well, that's his own damn fault for making a tactical misplay. However, a good jungler recognizes this and is prepared to correct his laner's mistakes the instant the opposing team tries to punish him for it. A jungler who is unprepared to do this makes a strategic misplay.

If a jungler fails a gank because the laner lacked CC its the fault of both parties for failing the gank and making a tactical misplay. It could also be the laners fault for making a strategic misplay in champion select, but both players are at fault here.

If you have a laner who outright feeds his lane and dies non stop, you, as a jungler, made a strategic misplay in allowing him to feed uncontrollably without accomplishing anything else on the map. Either be aware of what the matchup is and why it is going south for that laner and be in a position to reset his lane after his first death or accomplish taking an objective somewhere else so that his poor play is less meaningful in a strategic sense. Again, fault is on both parties, but particularly the jungler for failing to be aware of the game state in a role that prioritized being aware of the game state.

A laner who throws away a lead after he was gifted one by the jungler has no one to blame but himself. This is the only correct portion of your OP so far. Laners, don't piss away leads you are gifted by a talented JG.

1v1 losses happen in lanes that get countered more often than anything. A good jg knows what the matchups are and which lanes require the most help the soonest. A jungler who allows a lane that is countered to suffer and does nothing to impact that lane in the first 5 minutes to 10 minutes of the game is a bad jungler who consistently makes strategic misplays and costs his teams games.

You seeing the big picture yet? You see the common theme in all this?

It's a team game that requires teamwork and guess who the most influential team member in a game is and has been for 6 straight seasons... Yah, you guessed it. The jungler. He has the most map influence and the greatest flexibility and needs to be aware of who to help when, why, where, and how. Bad junglers use the reasons you give as a crutch for their poor strategic choices. You should not reinforce the idea that this crutch is a good thing, jungling is already the most complicated and difficult role to play in the game without you offering very poor and fundamentally unsound advice.

No, its not the junglers fault for every last little thing. But it is the junglers fault for basically everything that happens in a game because he is the person who controls the pace of the game by default. Learn to jungle properly, learn to control the map properly, learn to make the proper strategic decisions, and learn to understand the matchups of your laners properly so that you are better able to make good strategic decisions.

Edit: Additionally, watch any high level player play jungle who is a jungle main. We will all do the same exact thing, we will all tell you the exact same thing. Gank, non stop, 24/7. That's how you are supposed to do it. Get your laners a lead so they are free in a strategic sense to apply their advantages elsewhere on the map. That is jungling in high elo 101. And yet you say its the wrong mindset... No. What you present as your argument is the wrong mindset. 100% of high level junglers will all say the same thing as I have said here. 100%. We all will say it. Because that's how to play the role in a fundamentally sound fashion. Pay attention to the map, go help the lanes, get them a lead, and then focus on controlling the map.