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Kindred's Rework Failed Their Fan Base @RiotRepertoir

Yago·3/9/2018, 11:08:34 PM·87 votes·9,768 views

I try not to bash the developers, because that solves nothing. But the Kindred 'rework' was never particularly well received. I have 400k Mastery on the champion and no longer really play them because it feels absolutely awful to do so.

They're full of anti-combos.

I have a slow I want to open a fight with, but it has a long cooldown and does missing health damage, so using it for either purpose feels like a wasted choice. ANTI-COMBO

I can get a ton of range, but generally want to play much closer to prevent enemies from just walking away from my W. ANTI-COMBO

I have a ton of attack speed, but nothing in my kit is particularly concerned with attack speed. You could argue that it enables you to build raw damage and skip out on attack speed itemization, but the best items for damage on someone who right clicks are critical strike items, which pack a ton of attack speed. Alternatively, you can build On-Hit items like Bloodrazor and BotRK, which do synergize with the attack speed, but waste your damage ratios. ANTI-COMBO

My W deals magic damage which gives me a tool to affect enemies who stack armor, except its damage scaling is almost entirely percent current health damage which does very little to actually help me kill said armor stacking targets. ANTI-COMBO

I have a mini-game for a passive that encourages risky invades and aggressive ganking, but I'm not a particularly threatening ganker compared to many other champions, and I can't duel many junglers, AND the stats gained from actually succeeding are anti-combos, AND even if they weren't anti-combos they'd still mostly do nothing without other items to augment them, AND those items are expensive Attack Damage items on a role with relatively little gold income. This thing is an ANTI-COMBO COMBO.

I have an ultimate which is an incredibly strong tool for teamfighting, but I don't want to actually teamfight because it's literally the only thing I bring, and it's a complete gamble as to whether or not my team can play around it. You could say Kindred brings single target damage, which you shouldn't, because there are far better choices for that, like Kha'zix, Jax, Vayne, or Caitlyn, who actually do enough damage to justify the fact that it's single target AND have better and more reliable utility. Three of those can easily jungle. ANTI-COMBO

I have an ultimate which can save allies from dying, but is based upon my positioning, which is TWO shades of awful. Either I'm on the frontline and can assist short range or melee champions on my team with it, and am not using my bonus range, or I'm in the back where I can't help the champions who are often actually taking damage and threatened with death. ANTI-COMBO

And there are a lot more complaints, such as how removing Kindred's thematically fitting percentage health On-Hit damage hit their identity, or the fact that Kindred's previously unrivaled build diversity has been streamlined.

But idle complaints solve nothing.

To fix something, we have to actually put in the work. Or, if nothing else, try to. So here I am on the forums barking about it.

If any Rioter actually does read this, I beg you to do something to fix Kindred and restore them to the champion many of us fell in love with and have hundreds of hours played on. If you can't do that, at least let us know we're heard.

I'm deathly serious when I say I'm passionate enough about this champion and this game that I'd personally pay for a flight to your HQ, sign an NDA, and resign myself to being homeless and sleeping in public bathrooms if I had to for the opportunity to work with you guys on fixing them. But that probably sounds too desperate so you can ignore it.

Here's my best take on fixing what's wrong with them and finding a middle ground between the old Kindred and the new Kindred.

Passive - Mark of the Kindred:

Each Mark now provides 2% missing health damage On-Hit, with a minimum damage of 4 and a maximum damage against monsters of 10 per Mark. Each Mark now provides W - Wolf's Frenzy with 1% current health damage per attack, with a minimum damage of 4 and a maximum damage against monsters of 10 per Mark. Each Mark now provides W - Wolf's Frenzy with an additional 50 cast range and 50 radius.

Kindred can now acquire marks if they participate in a monster takedown. (This stops people on your team from intentionally trolling and stealing your Marked camps out from under you.)

No longer provides bonus attack range or bonus cast range for E - Mounting Dread at 4 Marks and every 3 Marks after. No longer provides bonus attack speed after casting Q - Dance of Arrows. No longer provides additional percent missing health damage on E - Mounting Dread

WHY THESE CHANGES?: This restores Kindred's thematic identity as a death in two halves by returning the percentage health On-Hit damage. Lamb deals missing health damage, whilst Wolf deals current health damage. Unlike the previous iteration of Kindred, though, it's a lot less prone to being a balance nightmare. Percent missing health damage makes Lamb's arrows a lot less deadly at the start of the fight, giving you a chance to fight back or flee, whilst Wolf's percent current health damage reinforces Kindred's dependency upon fighting within W - Wolf's Frenzy. The Mark scaling on the radius and cast range of W - Wolf's Frenzy is intended to let Wolf feel more like his own entity, rather than just being a visual effect on the key you press to press Q more, as well as allowing Kindred to be more useful when behind or in siege situations.

Q - Dance of Arrows

Cooldown changed to 8 from 9.

Cooldown refund during W - Wolf's Frenzy changed to 50%/56.25%/62.5%/68.75%/75% of remaining cooldown from a static 4/3.5/3/2.5/2.

Damage changed to 60/75/90/105/120 + 40% Total AD from 60/80/100/120/140 + 65% Bonus AD

WHY THESE CHANGES?: With the return of a far less overbearing version of Mark of the Kindred's On-Hit damage, we're splitting the difference between old and new Kindred's Q scaling. The cooldown reduction provided by W - Wolf's Frenzy has been adjusted to provide better scaling with Cooldown Reduction from items. Whilst I expect Q max would still be ideal, this does open up some build diversity as Kindred could choose to max W - Wolf's Frenzy or E - Mounting Dread and rely on Cooldown Reduction from items rather than being forced to max Q first in every game.

W - Wolf's Frenzy

Cooldown changed to 20/18/16/14/12 from 18/17/16/15/14 Cooldown now starts when the effect ends rather than when the effect begins.

Cast range changed to 700 + 50 per Mark from 500. Radius changed to 800 + 50 per Mark from 800.

Damage type changed to Physical.

Damage changed to 30/35/40/45/50 + 50% Total AD + 1% Current Health per Mark from 25/30/35/40/45 + 20% Bonus AD + 1.5% Current Health + 1% Current Health per Mark

WHY THESE CHANGES?: Originally, Riot changed Wolf's Frenzy to magic damage, I presume, to give Kindred some relevance when facing targets with high armor, but this actually feels pretty awful. Why? As touched on above, its damage scaling is almost entirely current health damage, which falls off as your target gets lower and lower health, so you're left sitting there wondering where all your damage went as you get baited into overextending for a kill you couldn't possibly have secured. To fix this, the damage type has been restored to Physical. This also once again promotes synergy with Black Cleaver and Death's Dance. The AD ratio has been restored and slightly buffed from how it was before the rework to restore Kindred's viability in a lane whilst keeping their damage to jungle monsters similar to what it is now. The base cast range has been increased to allow Kindred complete control over Wolf's spawn position as well as allowing Wolf to go over several of the thicker walls that it looks like you should be able to toss him over but presently can't. (Trying just causes him to smack into them and waste his time trying to path around.) The change to the cooldown is probably the most controversial change, but it is intended to provide Kindred with a clear window of power. Currently the spell is almost always available, rendering it pretty moot as to whether or not you or Kindred leave the area. Before you freak out about this, I suggest you continue reading.

E - Mounting Dread

Cooldown changed to 12 from 16/15/14/13/12.

Slow changed to 30/35/40/45/50% for 2 seconds from 50% for 1 second.

Damage type changed to True damage from Physical damage.

Damage changed to 20/40/60/80/100 + 20% Total AD + 1% Maximum Health per Mark from 65/85/105/125/145 + 80% Bonus AD + 8% Missing Health + .5% Missing Health per Mark.

No longer scales with critical strike chance or critical strike damage and no longer critically strikes low health targets.

The cooldown of W - Wolf's Frenzy is now reduced by 6 seconds when E - Mounting Dread deals damage.

WHY THESE CHANGES?: As mentioned above, Riot changed the damage type of W - Wolf's Frenzy to try and give Kindred some form of relevance against armor stacking enemies, but that did not work very well. Mounting Dread seems like a far better spell for this, and as a result it has been changed to True damage. We've also returned the percent maximum health damage to provide a mechanical embodiment of Lamb and Wolf's unified attack. Mounting Dread resets the cooldown on Wolf's Frenzy to give Kindred, and Kindred's opponents, more motivation to actually play around the spells' effects. The slow percentage has been lowered at early ranks, but the duration has been increased, which should make the spell feel a lot more useful in situations where you can't land the bonus damage. ** R - Lamb's Respite**

Cooldown changed to 180/150/120 from 160/130/100. Cast range changed to 500 and can now be cast on any allied or enemy champion.

Heal changed to 5/10/15% of Maximum Health.

WHY THESE CHANGES?: Restoring the original cast paradigm makes the spell a lot more flexible and provides more room for skill expression. To compensate for this change, the cooldown has been increased. The heal has been changed to a percentage of maximum health from a flat value to prevent some of the more obscene early game tower dives with the spell which is exactly the sort of thing that ends up breaking pro play.

Revert like

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Please?

EDIT:

I'd like to take the time down here in this edit to explain some of the design choices in my own rework suggestion since I saw the comments worrying that it was too much. Whilst I did some degree of that before, I think there's a few things that people are questioning which require more context.

It isn't very fun to play against a champion who can't die but can still deal a sickening amount of damage. Kindred was definitely capable of that before Riot's rework. At the time, even if you did manage to get them low, which was incredibly difficult due to their combination of mobility and itemization, they still had Lamb's Respite to fall back on. Percent missing health damage is a lot less abusive on that front, as you have to deal damage or rely upon your team to gain damage from it. It's still possible to build a lot of durability with my rework, which was one of my intended goals, but it's nowhere near as frustrating or powerful as it was before.

The reason that I added in W's scaling radius and cast range is to keep some form of Kindred's current bonus range, to appeal to those people that liked it. In most cases you'll only get a few hundred extra units worth of range on it and enemy champions still have to either be alone or have been recently attacked by you for Wolf to target them.

The cooldown changes to W affect their jungle clear speed and pattern in a way that might not seem obvious at first. If you use W on a camp, you won't have it up for the next camp. This means two things. First, Kindred will actually have to take some damage in the jungle and second, if Kindred chooses to use W to clear a camp they will not be able to use it to duel you immediately after. This is a nerf to Kindred, certainly, but it is one that is in line with Riot's design philosophy of improving game health. If Kindred uses W to steal your Krugs and you catch them there, you should be able to fight them over it. Alternatively, Kindred can choose to steal your Gromp but save W in case they suspect an enemy is lurking nearby. The long and short of it means that even if there isn't a way to mechanically outplay Kindred and you can still outplay them on a macro level. There's a lot more room for skill expression for both players. This also applies to Kindred's ganks.

There are two reasons that E reduces the CD of W. The first is so that Kindred still has W up reliably in the later stages of the game. After all, being stat checked by a short range champion is a lot less of a concern when you have your team with you. Think about the way that Teemo or Akali become a lot less obnoxious to play against once lane phase is over! And the second reason is to further enforce the risk/reward structure of the new W. Kindred can shave a substantial portion of their W CD by using E on monsters, but that means instead of being without W for the next camp/duel, Kindred is without E. It also requires more mana management.

That all might seem like a small change, but it's actually pretty huge. A lot of why Kindred is so overbearing when the champion is strong is their W. Don't believe me? Look at Nunu. He's objectively a weak champion. And yet, the one thing he does, counterjungle, is so strong that anytime he sees viability he defines the meta and absolutely destroys the competition. Think about it this way, if we nerf Kindred's overbearing gank/counterjungle potential to be more fair, the champion can actually be buffed to viability outside of that niche.

If you were worried about those changes hampering your ability to gather Marks, you could always max W first for the lowered cooldown. Whilst that would affect your ability to duel, I think that's an acceptable tradeoff. After all, you're a lot less dependent upon maxing Q since it scales with total AD and CDR and you have On-Hit damage once again.

As for E's combination of flat and percent maximum health True damage...you can't tell me that it isn't fitting on a champion who is the literal embodiment of death in Runeterra! I tried to keep the damage reasonably fair. Lee Sin's E does 70 + 100% Bonus AD magic damage. If he ganks you at level 4, you'll end up taking about 60 damage from it in most cases post-mitigation. With my suggested changes to Kindred's E, you'd take about 35 flat damage and an additional 1-3% of your maximum health, which is pretty similar. In the late game, Kindred likely has somewhere between 6 and 12 Marks, which means all in all the spell is going to do a pretty similar amount of damage to Vayne's W, except it of course has a longer cooldown.

I also edited my suggestion such that W's Mark scaling is now 1%. It was always intended to be 1%, so that Wolf scaled exactly 50% with their passive, 50% with their AD, and 50% with their attack speed. I wrote the thread on three hours of sleep, forgive me.

I also edited E's CD reset on W to 6 seconds. A full reset was never my intention, but it was honestly the last section I wrote and I was too tired to find a good number.

59 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoir3/10/2018, 8:18:20 PM40 votes

Hi. I'm not really sure what the path forward for Kindred should look like, but I passed the thread on to Wrekz (their original designer) to see what he thinks about the character generally. Sorry I can't offer much more than that at this time.

ModWulf Helhammer3/9/2018, 11:12:47 PM29 votes

Your first part of the post is really good, but you went overboard on some of those change suggestions. For instance: "W resets when E deals damage". That's a bit insane

RedPannda3/10/2018, 12:09:22 AM13 votes

Problem is she is in that sad middle ground where she isn't bad enough to need urgent attention and she isn't good enough to need urgent attention. So like many others who are just "ok", she will most likely languish in average mediocrity for years and years.

It's a damn shame, she was the first champ that ever really spoke to me beyond her kit. I love the themes and story behind them. But every time I've tried to pick them up I am sadly reminded of why I feel like its not worth the bother. That passive alone drives me up the wall, its just a big fat "come here for free kills" sign. I've gotten to the point where I don't even bother and I just ignore them unless I happen to be on top of one when it spawns. Her kit just feels clunky, like you said most of her abilities don't really work in tandem or they have some sort of weird interaction that can screw you over just as quickly as it can help.

Her kit is a mess and doesn't fit her thematically or functionally and no amount of number changes can fix that. She needs a rework but since she isn't bad enough to be unplayable that puts her at the back of the bus for those kind of things.

Ozzie Storm3/10/2018, 1:12:42 AM5 votes

As a Kindred main i actually enjoy the champ. Yes they're kinda meh and are easily countered but i just enjoy them nontheless. However my enjoyment means nothing in terms of balance and the fact that they need a second look which i totally agree with. However as it has been said they're in an "ok" spot so i doubt any real adjustments will happen any time soon.

One thing i've been doing recently and have found lot of success in is playing them top (althought i beleive it has it has to do with top being underpowered more than anything). Keep my mark on my opponent and change it when i roam, taking passive marks o my way back or if enemy is playibng too safe, no one to gank...etc. Not how they're intended to be played but ok overall.

Recuro3/10/2018, 2:39:25 AM5 votes

Kindred's Rework Failed Their Fan Base

I loved the Kindred update, and I have mastery 7 on them so I'm pretty sure I qualify as their fanbase.

You're more than free to complain if you don't like it, but please don't act like you represent the entire fanbase.

SirLapse3/10/2018, 4:25:17 AM3 votes

I have to disagree with most of this post for a couple reasons:

For your Mounting Dread, you will use it most definitely to open a gank rather than a fight. You can save it and use your autoattacks until it is actually appropriate to use your E. This is not an anti-combo at all when involving the fact that she is in fact a jungler, and ganking is her priority.

Your "ton of range" allows for your autos to do everything for you. Kindred is a jungle ADC. Literally unless you are playing something like Miss Fortune, every ADC relies on autoattacks for damage by mid to late game. The autos at the end of the day mean EVERYTHING. Your W is still used for clearing early on and still majorly used for dashes.

{quoted}

I have a ton of attack speed, but nothing in my kit is particularly concerned with attack speed. You could argue that it enables you to build raw damage and skip out on attack speed itemization, but the best items for damage on someone who right clicks are critical strike items, which pack a ton of attack speed. Alternatively, you can build On-Hit items like Bloodrazor and BotRK, which do synergize with the attack speed, but waste your damage ratios. ANTI-COMBO

Your Q boosts your attack speed and your W scales based on attack speed. Your E is landed faster based on attack speed. You mostly use autos as stated above. I'm appalled by how your kit has everything to do with attack speed outside of the ultimate, and yet you're saying otherwise.

Anyway I'm not going to load this post with quotes all over. Your W is not going to solve your problems when fighting tanks, but Kindred can itemize for Black Cleaver. It has been done before, and it is not strange to do so as your 3rd item, though personally I've taken it before as a 2nd item when I don't care about the attack speed as much as the shred.

As for the ganking, there are no anti-combos involved with you simply running out of the bush, starting with Mounting Dread or an auto, then proceeding to use your W>Q to close the distance and reapply red buff. She is not a duelist, no. But she can easily invade slower junglers like Sejuani when they're still trying to clear camps, and you do NOT need to make stupid plays in order for you to plan an aggressive play. Kindred is still a jungler and still would like to make ganks even if it does not yield a Mark.

I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH THE GOLD BUDGET AND SPENDING FOR AD ITEMS.

As for Kindred's ultimate, honestly I do not think of it as a strong tool at all. You're using it for the same reasons as Stopwatch more often than not, which is to save yourself and not your team. It is a situationally strong ult. It is not strong just because you have it up for the next fight, in fact you will actually lose harder if your team is already behind. This ultimate is quite the noobtrap and requires careful usage to really get the hang of. It would be easier for the champ if it didn't exist however, and this argument has been made since the champion received the nerf on not being able to place it anywhere. I'm quite honestly exhausted of talking about it, but I do enjoy when this ultimate works out perfectly in-game.

Not going to comment on ability changes as I think Kindred is doing quite well. "Able to be counterpicked" is not a good enough reason to rework a champion. I am extremely passionate about Kindred myself, but I try to be objective as much as possible when approaching her learning curve and how it reflects on how everyone else plays her (and therefore what they think of her).

Ariel the Cruel3/10/2018, 2:27:31 AM3 votes

Just going to post this. not completely relevant.

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=B2wcKbJO,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-10-29T06:30:38.933+0000)

Quick link to my last [Kindred] proposal: [Shameless plug.]

TyroneWatermelon3/10/2018, 3:33:00 AM2 votes

I never really understood that E rework, it’s the only burst damage I have and scales with missing hp, but it’s also my only tool to gank with that encourages me to throw it at the start of a fight?

AirKingNeo3/10/2018, 2:16:15 AM2 votes

Cooldown changed to 20/18/16/14/12 from 18/17/16/15/14 Cooldown now starts when the effect ends rather than when the effect begins.

Uhhh?

PhDs Nuts3/10/2018, 8:21:20 PM2 votes

{quoted}

AND those items are expensive Attack Damage items on a role with relatively little gold income. This thing is an ANTI-COMBO COMBO.

Did you just say junglers have little gold income?

Sylaelque11/30/2018, 4:52:59 AM1 votes

I totally agree, she is very underpowered compared to other junglers. My team always blaming after I pick Kindred because there is nothing you can do if you failed to collect passive stacks.

Wild Geese3/10/2018, 6:24:12 AM1 votes

I mostly agree, I didn't like the range bonus stuff from when they first announced it. It's like, yeah sure, bonus range sounds nice but this doesn't fit in with the way the champion PLAYS. The main thing I always loved about Kindred was the Q, it's such a little short range skirmishing tool, juke while attacking. If they're attacking from afar so much of the Q goes to waste.

And the rest of their kit, it used to go so well together, maybe the numbers were a bit off, they were overpowered. But at Kindred was so much more fun to play just on feeling.

Although as much as I want old Kindred back, I wonder if a larger kind of rework may be in order, because there's many fans who kind of want Wolf to be more of a thing, they want that true duel champion. And the more I think about it; Why not? Have Wolf and Lamb be able to switch roles; this may be as simple as basically palette swapping them back and forth, So one is the humanoid, the other is the spirit. The two could have the same abilities that do very different things, one being defensive and the other offensive. Instead of being so reliant on the marks for scaling, the marks could be the currency in which Kindred could switch forms.

JustCallMeSPED3/10/2018, 3:47:05 PM1 votes

I think the title is a bit emotionally charged, but I agree that Kindred just kind of feels bad to play.

Let me premise this: I SUCK at jungling. But I really like the theme of Kindred. The thing is, as a bronzie, Kindred just feels nearly useless. Half of the games I play, the enemy jungler invades and kills me whenever they want, and in the other, I feel like I just do no damage. In the games I win as Kindred, it's only because the rest of my team was good. I have NEVER had a positive KDA as Kindred, not before or after the rework.

I know this is so much because of my own skills, but Kindred's skill floor makes him feel unusable to someone still on the low end of the skill spectrum. This post is just basically here to give my own thoughts. I don't know how useful they will actually be to a Rioter, but a man can hope. I LOVE their theme and would gladly pick up jungling more regularly if I at all felt like I had a chance with Kindred.

Sire Hippington3/10/2018, 9:56:28 PM1 votes

Agree on some of the anti-combo parts, but others are just you ranting.

The W softens up targets for the missing health from E, and even if the % current health doesn't kill anything on it's own, it still greatly helpps takeing down tanky targets. The % current health magic damage is no anticombo, it isn't even a combo, it's simply what it does and perfectly makes sense for her.

The ult is not poorly for teamfights, it's just as effective for skirmishes, and even if it hints to teamfights, kindret is pretty strong with high ranged dps, % damage and mobillity for teamfights (if your comp i built properly, in soloQ you'll probably lack a tank since most people expect the jungle to be some sort of frontline, but that's not a design fail on kindret but the narrow minded playerbase) The cast pattern and the fact that usually allies and opponents will crowd in the aoe closely together does not synergiesing with her high range at all though, you're right on that part.

The two big anticombos you got are her E and her itemisation.

I get that right want's to creat hard(and interesting) choices with things like her E, but it really just feels bad for the player, you always feel like you're missing out something important. Olaf's ult has similar issues.

For her items, it's just wiered. As you said, no direct synergie with AS but stonrg as from her kit, which would suggest ad-heavy builts, but her ad-scaleings are not really great and her main thing for the late is the growing range and her E execute which scales of stacks and crit, but crit is not a great built for junglers.

however, you missed the biggest anti combo for her which is the main issue ofr balanceing her: the stacking passive! The way she earns stacks, she need to either contest opposing camps or somewhat reliably get succesfull ganks on specific targets, which both requires a ratehr strong early. As a jungler, she also needs to have good early impact else she's not really viable for the role anyway. At the same time, as an adc she naturally will be strong late, and if her stacks get rolling she also will scale hard into late.

This results in Kidnret either beeing strong at all points off the game and thus beeign completely dominant when strong(like after release), or they are weak early, fail to get the stacks for their later and they are overall just weak. Or they sometimes have games that role and crush, and others in which they are rather usless, which currently is the case from my experience. if kindret actually gets a decent start and some solid stacks, they can be terrifying, buut their early is to weak for that to be reliably happening and if it doesn't happen they don't do much.

Asides from the gameplay issues, i think she currently falls flatin terms of her 'two characters at the same time' fantasy as she feels like lamb+a pet rather than lamb and wolf, similar to quinn and her pet valor. or even worse, nunu and willump, everyone just calls them nunu, yet willump literally does all of the work...

On your suggestio: The numbers on W and passive are pretty nuts. **Missing **health on hit is far supperior to **current **health on-hit, so evena t the same value as old kindret had it would be rather massive, and you nearly doubled that value while also heavily boosting W and E. you're kindret would be insanely broken unless the early game is so bad that she just foesn't get her stacks.

LordGeovanni3/11/2018, 4:14:34 AM1 votes

I want to build damage and go in but if i do i get ripped apart in 0.5 seconds. Anti Combo Aatrox Jax JarvanIV Irelia Pantheon Olaf Nocturne Trundle .

Opreax3/11/2018, 1:30:36 PM1 votes

200% agree, lvl7 shadowfire kindred here, this champ is weakest in this game

Mirage Night3/11/2018, 4:41:09 PM1 votes

I totally agree with the analysis portion of this. And definitely agree that a partial revert is needed to bring to her kit to a more uniform, thematic and in the end viable method of play. As noted by some, the revert suggested may be a bit much, but with some tuning, it is the direction where it needs to go.

Cavemantero3/11/2018, 5:47:31 PM1 votes

Kindred feels so garbage to play now I auto reroll everytime I get in ARAM just so my teammates wont be completely useless either.

Quepha3/12/2018, 3:44:25 AM1 votes

You should be glad that Kindred is still Kindred rather than the travesties that were Varus and Swain. They shouldn't even be called by the same names anymore.