People complaining about Yas and Lee Sin when Ivern sits at 54-59% winrate depending on the elo.
This is why Riot doesn't balance around what the majority thinks, because the majority of players don't know how to play this game.
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doesnt change the fact that lee sin is broken............It also has to do with the fact that lee sin is in like 50% of the games.
Can't remember the last time i've seen an ivern.
this trhead is shit.
But you don't see Ivern 24/7.
I have seen mmaybe 3-5 iverns in my games since 7.0
Lee is in almost all my games if he is not banned.
it's about how frustrating the champion is to play against not their statistics
I think most platinum+ players know this.
Ivern isn't played that often, and while his winrate is bonkers, he never really feels oppressive. His kit is subtle. chill. smooooth.
On the otherhand, Lee and Yasuo are probably the most popular 2 champions in the game. They also feel oppressive and potent, especially if they can farm a bad player.
It's pretty obvious why they get so much hate when you consider the kits and popularity.
Speak for yourself. I've made a few threads about Ivern and permaban him in my games
I rest my case.
It's do with with the fact very little amount of people object the notion that Ivern is making his rounds, so by definition there is very little reason to actually preach it. Ivern is also one of those champs who is very good at snowballing an already winning team, which this skews his win rate a bit. Not to mention, he is no where as "in your face" as the other usual suspects, so that alone already blows off much of the heat.
Looking at Lee, most of the issues players have is to do with the crusade of players who swear on their lives to defend Lee from even the slightest suggestion that he may not be perfectly balanced. They are so obnoxiously "supportive", they'd successfully blocked Riot from actually fixing the champ like twice, who made the situation what it is today where Lee will never be meaningfully addressed no matter how many arguments are put forth to show that Lee has indeed been a very naughty kid for a very long time. That is pretty much why many players are mad and they spam the Lee hate threads (I'm one of them), as they're sick of seeing Lee more frequently than they read the Lee QQ threads on forum, they're sick of Lee always being among the strongest champs and has been not only in but defining the meta for the last 5+ years, and they're sick of the sweeping claim that Lee is perfectly okay that usually comes with dumb and nonsensical justifications like "because he's fun".
Yasuo is of a similar situation, but more to do with the fact his kit is fundamentally cynically toxic, and the thematic inspiration being an obvious attempt at catering the "easy" tryhards, which more or less means he will still get hate almost no matter how well he does.
Well, I don't care about Ivern's winrate if I never see one in my games. Lee Sin is basically in every game, so there is definitely something fishy going on. But whatever, once 10 bans drops for us Lee Sin will be deleted from my games
idk
but the most annoying shit i see when people talk about him goes like this
"well i dont notice him destroy me so idc that bad. Its okay =)."
its not ivern thats the problem.
Its these
!
but riot does not give a fuck because support is an unpopular role.
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Lee sin isn't overpowered at all, he just has an overloaded kit. Ivern being the only champion that fits his niche as a support jungler seems quite oppressive because the utility and tankiness he offers while running through his jungle like a hot knife through cake is disheartening for the other team
There can be other reasons for complaining about a champion though.
I got a fairly decently upvoted thread calling Yasuo's kit, his E in particular, tilting to play against.
Yes, it's based on an emotion, and I acknowledge that Yasuo isn't overpowered. But when a champion just isn't fun to play against it's still a problem worth speaking about.
While I know that Ivern is too strong I can at least see him as a fairly predictable jungler.
Invade to see where he starts and start on the same side to eliminate his level 1 invade.
That's literally the thing a bad Ivern like myself uses to get ahead and stay ahead.
Numbers don't mean a thing. People complain about Lee and Yasuo because they hardly recieve nerfs and are extremely frustrating to play with. Yasuo can block projectiles, absorb up to 500 points in damage everytime he walks in a circle for 10 seconds, knock you up, double crit, penetrate your armor, avoid your skillshots with his different skill, among other things. Leesin has godlike mobility, true sight, a knockback that does damage to enemies hit with other enemies, and has built in lifesteal.
Ivern on the otherhand just roots you, makes bushes, and summons a mobile knockup. Not to mention he is getting a slight nerf to his bush behavior.
I don't think Yas or Lee are overpowered - that is, numerically stronger than other champs in a similar role. I don't think Ivern is directly overpowered either.
The problem with Lee or Yas is that they are irritating to play against. Like riven before them, they are hated because they're annoying. Against Yas, you feel like you can't punish him when he makes mistakes. The windwall and passive shield get hate because they make it feel like you can't do anything to him or punish him for mistakes. Lee is just super mobile and is fairly easy to convert one successful gank into a huge lead.
But aside from their gameplay, the popularity of these champs makes it so they are seen in games a whole lot. There might even be a bit of jealousy as well - Lee and Yas both take at least a little effort and skill to play (I know because I suck at both of them). It's hard to accept skill when a champ looks easy to play but actually takes some work.
Anyway, they're both annoying to deal with in games and are popular enough that they're seen fairly often. Conversely, Ivern doesn't feel annoying - he has a skillshot snare and a shield and a dumb tibbers that isn't on fire. He doesn't sound overpowered and his damage output isn't bursty enough to get deleted by him without feeling like you have some options. On the other hand, his team utility is high and his jungle clears are some of the fastest and safest. He might annoy the jungler by taking his stuff, but there's options to counter that sort of play.
So the hate is more about how it feels to play against the champ, rather than their actual ability to affect the overall game.