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Proposed Changes from a Zyra Main

Hal·9/1/2015, 9:24:40 PM·10 votes·1,291 views

Plant AI: Auto-target champions when they enter their range, add alt+rightclick for player to change their target

Passive: Give her passive a component that is relevant while she is still alive. Examples:

  • Zyra's autoattacks gain +X for every Y ability power
  • Zyra's autoattacks place a seed debuff on targets. Targets with seed debuff take extra damage from Zyra's plants [Plant affinity themed]:
  • Zyra gains +X ability power and movement speed for each active plant
  • Zyra gains +X% ability power when in a bush

Feedback appreciated

29 Comments

Fadedpf9/1/2015, 9:42:47 PM8 votes

I think she should just get some sort of movement speed buff for each champion knocked up by her ult, fix the plant AI and make her passive not "Well if you die you can get off some good damage, maybe probably not."

manbearswine9/1/2015, 11:15:43 PM4 votes

Aside from the plant ai suggestions,which would make her zoning a bit silly,seem like decent changes,they unfortunately don't really solve any of her current problems(which at their simplest form are "high winrate yet considered a shit pick anyway"),so...eh?

Cindikle9/1/2015, 9:52:32 PM3 votes

335 MS

Slightly faster E

Passive now has a charge that works like Varus' Q, but starts at shorter range. This would allow earlier activation.

What she does not need is more damage. Or plants that auto-harass. She has 575 attack range. Better than most ADC's. And an animation that would make most ADC's drool. Controlling your plants shouldn't be that big of an issue.

Teechmehow2dougy9/2/2015, 4:00:35 PM3 votes

Any buff she gets should be a small one, or a stepping stone to make her gameplay more fluid and easier for new players.

She's been floating at 50% at lowest recently, and often a few % above. 3.13 was her last nerf which was a very long time ago. Her nerfs included cutting her passive W cdr by half, Q range by 25 (took a while to get used to actually), Q base damage, and plant base damage. She received a slight scaling compensation in AP ratios and plant damage in later levels, as well as 25 seed range.

The nerfs were very deserved as she was way too strong in the support role specifically and they hit that with base damage as they did later with Annie, for example.

With all that said, Riot should learn from their previous balance changes and make any new changes now have some sort of scaling attached to it. We already know Zyra does too well with raw power given to her (free stat passives, base damage), and to be fair, since that time back then, plenty of common AP champs have had their raw power reduced as well to sort of be on par with Zyra's theoretical damage output, so she's fine in that department.

Mobility passives would be an OK option, but if they want to keep her as an immobile mage that packs more power and CC, scaling AP passives for more damage or other aspects of her kit would be the way to go imo. That way they can keep botlane Zyra in check since she'd have to invest heavily in AP to make her buffs relevant, would maybe have to sacrifice more support-y(?) items in exchange for power, and it would have a much larger ramp-up than midlane Zyra so the buff would be pretty much irrelevant in early botlane bullying.

As a long time Zyra main I still feel she's in an ok spot, so tipping the scale too much could be a disaster.

KoKoboto9/2/2015, 1:08:36 AM2 votes

give her plants health so they don't instantly die from minions or from someone casting a spell in lane :^)

Vekkna9/2/2015, 5:54:58 PM2 votes

{quoted}

335 MS

Slightly faster E

Passive now has a charge that works like Varus' Q, but starts at shorter range. This would allow earlier activation.

What she does not need is more damage. Or plants that auto-harass. She has 575 attack range. Better than most ADC's. And an animation that would make most ADC's drool. Controlling your plants shouldn't be that big of an issue.

As a player with around 130 ranked games, over 100k champ mastery, and a 56% champ win rate, I agree with most of this. Zyra does not need more damage, and she definitely does not need plants that auto-target champs 100% of the time!

I've tossed out tons of different ideas for Zyra to diversify builds and play between mid and bot since they mentioned buffs. But since they aren't redesigning her kit at all, we only really need the following QoL changes:

IF YOU CAN'T BE CREATIVE

Increase root duration on E by .25 sec at all ranks, keep missile speed as-is.

PLANTS AND TARGETING/AI

  1. Most importantly keep the AA plant targeting, but make it so that champs who take an AA in a plant range are "marked" as a plant priority target for 5 or 6 seconds, regardless of whether they exit the plant attack range. Minions cannot be marked. This is a QoL buff for support and a 100% necessary change for midlane. Right now in mid she can't CS without re-targeting her plant, which is enormously frustrating.

  2. I really like the AA-targeting system, but if it's going to stay in place, I think Zyra either needs some free attack speed in her kit or some better scaling with building some attack speed. After accidentally playing a couple of games with my Teemo rune set, I was really surprised at how much better Zyra felt with about 15% aspd. She feels far more fluid, and plant > aa combos are much smoother.

    A) Give her 3% attack speed per rank of W or 5% per rank of R. She's not exactly an AA wrecking ball, so I think this is a VERY safe buff with huge QoL return.

    B) Have her plants share her attack speed. This MUST be accompanied by plant AI improvements to not be an outright nerf. If plants are more reliably attacking champs, they can attack slower and scale in power through build.

    C) If no changes to attack speed or aspd scaling are done, AA range should be increased to 600.

  3. I feel like plants overall could use a few tweaks to either damage, range, or scaling since there is currently not a large distinction between the two aside from a short slow versus far more damage. Consider one of the following:

    A) Increase E plant range and decrease damage to nothing or almost nothing.

    B) Increase AP ratio or attack speed of Q plant with ranks in Q; increase slow % or duration or attack speed of E plant with ranks in E. In the alternative, scale plants in one of these ways with ranks in W.

    C) Increase plant duration by 1 second per rank of W, increase plant durability by 1 attack per rank in R.

SEEDS

Seeds should be slightly buffed in one of the following ways:

  1. Increase seed storage by +1 per rank of ulti. Zyra can only place 2 seeds per 5 seconds.

  2. W's seed regeneration time ticks twice as fast if Zyra is in a bush or in the jungle. So each second Zyra's in a bush or jungle takes two seconds off W cooldown. Would actually make Zyra jungle much more viable so she has reliable access to seeds for camps and can still occasionally use them for vision. Also a slight utility buff to support Zyra.

  3. Seeds that are stepped on by enemies deal 10 magic damage (because they stepped on a thorn, obviously) and are rooted for .15 sec per rank in W. Damage is negligible but procs Liandry's.

ULTIMATE

Zyra's ultimate is alright. It's great when layered on top of other cc in a big team fight, but I think every Zyra player would agree that a 2-second delay is pretty brutal for a 1-second knock-up. There are some other QoL changes that could also help if no changes are made to the delay. Consider one of the following:

  1. Targets in the initial cast area are slowed for 1-2 seconds. As the least mobile champ in the League of Mobility, we should be able to force dashes/teleports/stealths, etc. with an ulti. With a 2 second delay, we aren't guaranteed a knock-up even if we landed an E before-hand.

  2. Vines grasp at enemies who leave the zone, pulling them toward the center of the Stranglethorn when the knock-up triggers. Basically, if they walk out of your ulti, they get item 3745

  3. Increase cast range to 800 so you're less likely to instantly die when using it to initiate.

  4. In addition to the enrage on existing plants (or instead of), have it spawn unique plants when seeds are in the area with the effects of both Q and E plants. It makes no sense that Q and E spawn plants but R does not.

MOVEMENT

I actually think it's fine, all things considered. Most or all of the buffs I've suggested enhance self-peel, so being slow is justified. Additional focus on AA targeting should make Lich Bane an appealing option, which helps with mana and move speed. My only suggestion here is for plant attacks to stack Luden's. Lots of Zyras would love that 10% MS, but the proc is currently low benefit.

Currently, Zyra is way, way behind the mobility curve while being exceptionally squishy. I would prefer some buffs to slows/roots, etc to emphasize her control/sustain damage identity, but if that doesn't happen then she definitely needs a flat MS boost or MS steroid.

PASSIVE

Right now it's pretty awful. I'm not going to lie, I get a kill (or kills) from it almost every game. Sadly, I've had lots and lots of practice with it. But overall it's pretty frustrating, and I'd trade it in a heartbeat for just about anything else. Some ideas:

  1. Has a fixed duration where Zyra can AA normally with the damage of a Q plant for magic damage and apply spell effects.

  2. Can cast E (if it's off CD) in addition to shooting thorn as-is.

  3. Give thorn range of Lux ulti.

In addition:

 A) Passive MS buff in jungle, either a flat amount (+25), flat percentage (10%), or amount or % per level.

 B) While in brush cannot be targeted by enemies more than 400 range away, 2 sec cooldown after damaging an enemy champ.

 C) Attack speed buff as previously mentioned.

FUN IDEAS THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN

I think Zyra is a very skill-based champion, and it would be fun to add a silly trick to her kit as a new passive.

  1. One With The Jungle: Zyra can self-cast Q, E, and W to transform into a Thornspitter, Vinelasher, or Seed. During this time, she can only auto-attack, cannot move, and deals current plant damage. Lasts 10 seconds. Zyra reverts to caster form if her plant form is killed (by X number of attacks from monsters, minions, or champs), if her seed form is stepped on by an enemy champion, or if she uses any ability. (30-60 sec CD or hp threshold, like only usable under 30-50% hp).

Just think about how much fun that passive would be. The enemy would never know if a Zyra was going to pop out of a seed or if the plant they're attacking might drop a Stranglethorn under their feet. Or they're chasing Zyra into the jungle and she drops a seed and uses the other on herself. Which one's a Zyra?! Imagine the jukes! Imagine the #LC$bigplays! It would be epic. Beyond that, it would help her jungle without dying to every invade.

  1. Thorns: Attacking Zyra or her plants reflects X% damage as magic damage and/or causes the attacker to bleed for Y% of Zyra's AP over 3 seconds as physical damage, scaling linearly with level.

Because seriously, fuck Yasuo insta-deleting all your plants starting at level 2.

  1. Nature is My Ally: Zyra has vision of brush within 400 range. Brush within 1000 units of Zyra comes to her aid, slowing enemy movement speed by 20% inside brush and for one second upon leaving brush.

Keep humping that bush, Thresh.

  1. Kumungu Guardians: Zyra redirects 10% of incoming damage to her active plants, scaling by an additional 1% per rank in W or 5% per rank in R.

  2. Pollen: If Zyra touches a planted seed, the seed instantly blooms, dusting the ground with pollen that increases Zyra's movement speed by X and slowing enemy movement speed by Y. (30 sec CD)

  3. Root Network: While below 30-50% hp, Zyra can self-cast E to travel to the nearest seed or plant within 1100 units. Travels at the speed of E.

BuzzinTate9/2/2015, 3:11:18 AM2 votes

basically turn zyra plants into heim turrets

IxtaliKing9/2/2015, 3:10:37 AM1 votes

I'm seeing a lot people talking about move speed buffs for her, don't you guys feel like that will just make her a little better whilst keeping her bland in comparison to what she could be? Wouldn't you rather have her strengths be expanded on in a meaningful way? I think we can do better than move speed buffs guys.

Hex the FenFen9/2/2015, 10:49:32 AM1 votes

I like the seed debuff idea. My idea for a passive was something like this: Rise of Thorns: Zyra's plants deal X amount of true damage (very small much like corki's passive) and heal Zyra for X% of AP, doubled when plants are enraged.

Droogzy9/2/2015, 6:09:26 PM1 votes

I think she mostly just need QOL fixing, especially with her plant AI.

Her kit is fine IMO, the only change I would make is, better passive, a revive if she kills someone with the passive would be awesome and fit in fantastically with her lore.

I would also think it would be cool to see a some unique interaction with bushes be done, since she is essentially a plant herself. There's a ton of good ideas for her, just a matter of riot hopefully following on it.

PopCorn Chick3n9/1/2015, 10:22:09 PM1 votes

I do agree that Zyra should have a second passive along with the death passive one. Her current passive is not so reliable as it seem because it has a long delay before casting it and it's missile width is pretty small. The only time I actually hit someone with her passive is that they forgot that she has one. Any champion with any mobility ability or just moving around can easily dodge it. I don't know what her second passive should be but I would love to see it interactswith her plants.

Bârd9/1/2015, 10:30:10 PM1 votes

She DOES need buffs right now.

But turning her into an AP Garen isn't what we need. http://elohell.net/chill/216522/garen-on-bush

though that would help my Zyra jungle...

FingerFlavored9/1/2015, 11:09:04 PM1 votes

I am more of a Zyra main and the only change she needs is a Fix to her Plant AI

GankLord9/1/2015, 11:11:47 PM1 votes

Yeah as a Zyra main the plant Ai definitely needs to be changed especially seeing how fast they can be killed. The passive someone suggested where if she manages to kill someone with her passive she should be revived makes sense in accordance to her lore. A little more damage on her Q and she would be perfect.

IxtaliKing9/2/2015, 1:52:44 AM1 votes

I think they should give her plants a special buff when in bushes. Perhaps allow them to last longer with more hp and attack speed or give them extra range or something. Make her a designated bush guard xD. Also the alt and click target idea is good, I was thinking to increase her aa range a bit to give her safer targeting in team fights. They could also speed up her E until it hits a unit too, making it a little more reliable to use when fleeing whilst maintaining the difficulty of landing it through minions etc.. There's a lot that could be done with her to make more interesting to play with and against, I just hope they do her the justice she deserves.

Zeraphicus9/2/2015, 2:57:00 AM1 votes

She's really good right now, she is just immobile and positioning dependent. Any buffs she receives will put her into nerf territory(and end up worse than she is currently)