How is it decided if a champion has mana/energy/no resource?
Having no resource seems like such a big advantage over other champions. Why do some champions not have to spend a resource for abilities? How do you balance that sort of thing?
Having no resource seems like such a big advantage over other champions. Why do some champions not have to spend a resource for abilities? How do you balance that sort of thing?
While I'm no red I can help explain the usual reasoning.
A resource is used when a champion's kit need to be 'gated', or limited, in a certain way that's cohesive to the kit's design.
Lack of a resource isn't lack of gating, it just reduces the gating to cooldowns only. This may seem strong initially until you realize the context resource less champs come out of.

(Resource but still no cost)

These champs have kits that are either very visibly 'triggered' or they're simple fighters with easy to identify play patterns. what this means is that there are enough ways to counter these champs that the additional worry of a resource running out would simply make them easy opponents with very little options available.
It's definitely a strength to be resourceless, don't get me wrong, but only comes in lieu of very obvious weaknesses. With the exception of Kat and Riven, for example, they're all very easily kited. You balance their resourcelessness by extenuating the weakness that justify they're lack of a resource. For Kat you can simply decrease her damage since her passive is the thing that her kit revolves around. Riven you can dull her early game edge, like her base sustain (which they've done before).
Now if you're also curious on reasoning behind using Energy vs. Mana vs. Rage I can give some reasoning behind that as well.
Source: I'm an avid champion conceptor and game design nerd.
nope, katarina is just pure bullshit
[{quoted}](name=NyX Reks,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mAwY7vit,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-04-21T20:59:16.773+0000)
nope, katarina is just pure bullshit
Tbh all they had to change on kat on release was give her energy and make it where if she kills someone it restores 50 energy. And detonating each of her q marks would give her 5 energy back. It really isn't that hard to change. I report Riot.
[{quoted}](name=Faal Rovaniik,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mAwY7vit,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2015-04-21T21:15:00.483+0000)
Tbh all they had to change on kat on release was give her energy and make it where if she kills someone it restores 50 energy. And detonating each of her q marks would give her 5 energy back. It really isn't that hard to change. I report Riot.
I like how you act like any of those things existed back when Kat was released, to say nothing of it being a poor way to balance her design.
I'd love any and all you'd be willing to talk about! This is an awesome explanation and as an up-and-coming game design nerd, it's very interesting.
Cool! I'd love to explain my understanding. (Disclaimer: these are general understanding/logical reasoning, not a direct "this is why Riot did it" explanations)
#Mana
Previously the go-to resource in League's early life, the decision to use this resource type is when a champion needs pacing. Mana allows champions to have powerful individual spells and even more powerful combos, because they are limited to only a few uses before they have to go back or itemize for it (sacrificing their early game power). It's also the only resource mechanic that allows for high enough numbers to have universal (tear, AA staff, marumana) scaling, as the number of spell uses per champion is divided in so many different ways across the game.
In the case of ADC's, and why all adc's so far have it, mana also boasts the ability to be a valuable resource that can be effectively gone for a long period of time. Allowing champions who aren't resource dependent because of their role's nature (like adc's) to have moments of partial sacrifice.
#Energy
This mechanic is heavily front-loaded. It's quite simply a way of gating that severely punishes missing a spell, but the punishment itself does not last long enough to hurt much. Energy works best with combo-reliant champions, as they usually have very weak standalone spells (that they can then spam for light but not oppressive harass) but very devastating synergistic chains that require all if not more than all of their energy (meaning they have to hit/use their refund mechanic in the middle of their 'proper combo')
Another way to look at energy is when a champion's kit has a lot of options the designer loves, but to keep it balanced the champion should be punished if he/she/it uses all those options within a very short time.
#Rage
Always the go-to resource for fighters, rage is the resource for ramping up in battle. While this may seem obvious the more subtle cues of rage are much more interesting. Rage can be used either as a resource (ala Renekton, Tryndamere) or as a timer (ala Gnar, Shyvana) and both uses are needed for different things.
As a resource rage is used as a gating mechanic that denies certain power spikes at the beginning of a fight, or forces a champion to keep farming/pushing a lane to keep their threat up. It's for this very reason you don't see Renekton in the jungle often, because his rage will decay before he can get to a lane.
As a timer it's meant to pressure the champion to remain/start or leave a fight once the alarm goes off. Gnar is an obvious example of this but for Shyv it means that she can have an absurdly low cooldown on her ult (as it is only gated by her rage meter) provided she continues fighting and/or immeditely goes back to farming. She can't afford to sit still if her rage is down.
Technically, Rumble's 'heat' mechanic is functionally identical to rage.
Hmmm... Shen doesn't really sound much like he fits in the Energy category though... as he doesn't really have any combo other then taunting the enemy and hitting them with auto attacks or something like that? And well in teamfights... well yeah if you know you need your taunt you better be careful about using your W and Q... as they aren't that important
[{quoted}](name=Champion Skin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mAwY7vit,comment-id=0002000100000000,timestamp=2015-04-22T00:29:40.974+0000)
Hmmm... Shen doesn't really sound much like he fits in the Energy category though... as he doesn't really have any combo other then taunting the enemy and hitting them with auto attacks or something like that? And well in teamfights... well yeah if you know you need your taunt you better be careful about using your W and Q... as they aren't that important
Shen is simply not in a good place thematically or mechanically. That being said I love playing Shen, but he's a ninja that taunts, an energy based tank that thinks he's a fighter with a global ultimate. He's a bit of a mess :P
I swear though, I can stand up to so many tops with him. If he had actually kill potential, he might be OP.
Well Shen is actually pretty good in laning as he has good sustain in his Q and some damage mitigation in his W and well he can trade rather well with his Q + passive as they deal rather good damage and even if he slightly lose the trade his sustain can probably make up for it
I think it would actually be a good thing if Shen had mana instead of energy... It would be e nerf to his laning phase but it would allow him to gain a bit more power as he wouldn't have so much sustain in laning phase making him easier to balance in lane and it would enable Shen to itemize for CDR better enabling him to possibly getting of more taunts in teamfights and he would likely get a little more damage as he would be able to spam his Q more in teamfights and later on in the game when he would likely have some mana and CDR
And well CDR would also be great for his ult
Though for most other Energy champion it probably wouldn't be very good for them
I'm excited for the eventual rework, because they said they were planning on exploring different methods of being a tank while being an actual ninja, like blocking or evading damage instead of being a health stacking meat shield.
As for how he works with energy, I don't think he ever has. He was the first energy user released, and comes from the "quantity over quality" champion every few weeks period in the game. I don't think they had a plan for energy at that point other than "ninjas use it", it just so happened that Kennen and Akali who were released after him utilized it far better than he did, so they decided to follow their kit patterns for Lee and Zed, rather than Shen's.
along these lines I am curious how you feel about zed. I personally think hes fine but lots of people cry OP, but you seem to have good insight and are articulate so I'm curious about your opinion.
I'm not going to lie he's frustrating to play against, simply because he has so many options at any one time. His instant mobility makes him a very safe champion, but he's only allowed to do so because he is so easily countered with hourglass, QSS, Reverie and (yay thematics!) Shen ult. If it wasn't for these avenues of completely nullifying his ultimate Zed's kit wouldn't be as strong as it is now.
Also, energy champions that become viable in high level play usually end up seeming oppressive because they have no resource management issues. Like I mentioned in my explanation of energy, that resource does punish missing a spell but for a very limited amount of time in the form of not allowing the champion to perform a combo. Because of this it plays right into a newer-player gameplay trope of "He just threw out a spell, better back off" instead of capitalizing on the few seconds he is unable to retaliate.
the most non-biased truthful thing i've ever read on this forum lol. but seriously that last statement of backing off instead of going in is definitely something I've seen so many people make the mistake of doing against a zed. once he blows his combos or misses an ability hes vulnerable, people really need to learn that
Where does
fit into this?
[{quoted}](name=Mango Loco,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mAwY7vit,comment-id=0002000100000002,timestamp=2015-04-22T15:03:58.813+0000)
Where does
fit into this?
He, like Mundo, Mordekaiser and Zac have health costs. There are two ways to use health costs, % based and flat costs.
Flat costs are pretty much only there to limit a champion's early laning power. Effectively until they can itemize lifesteal, spell vamp or passive regen enough to nullify the cost. Morde getting a hextech revolver, for example. After that point the champion becomes effectively resource less and gets the strengths that comes with it. So, in other words, its a way to have a resourceless champion without having them resourceless at the very start.
Percentage health costs are mean to be a constant presence and acts very similarly to mana, where the design goal is to force pacing of a champion's spell use. However, health being health, running low on this resource does more than just make you unable to cast spells, it affects a champion defensively as well. Knwoing this, you may notice that all % health cost champions have some form of reliable health 'refund' mechanic. Zac has his blobs, Mundo has his cleaver hit, and Aatrox has his W toggle. This is because without some form of regen within the kit a champion will get actively punished by simply using their abilities. With a refund mechanic however, you can force specific interactions and develop unique weaknesses within a champion's kit. Aatrox, for example, has to trade a large amount of damage (damage-side W) in exchange for his health return (heal-side W).
I didn't mention health costs before because of the somewhat confusing interaction of flat health cost transitioning into effective resourceless-ness. May have proved to be a bit confusing :P
Well, Resource isn't only about gating, but also thematics.
For example, Renekton's kit could easily work with mana, since it is very similar to many other AD bruiser kits and with only minor tweaking it would feel like it had been his intended resource from the start (he would feel very much similar to a mix between Nasus and someone like J4 or Vi). However, Renekton is also a being of pure ferocious rage, so having fury as his resource bar made thematic sense and allowed them to put in a different style of gating on him.
On another note, Darius' kit would make far more game sense if it were gated with fury rather than mana, since his gameplay revolves around building power through a sustained fight before finishing with a coup de grace they could easily have built him around fury by changing his bleed from stacking with number of hits to increasing based on current fury, and made his ult damage scale with fury, in a similar manner to Rek'sai's furious bite ability. In this case though, Darius is a cool, calculated individual, so giving him fury would feel slightly out of place thematically (although mana doesn't feel great either).
Resource has to do with the feel of everything about a champion. Could Yasuo's kit work with mana? sure, it could work very well, but it isn't his identity. Would Udyr make more sense as a fury based fighter? Probably! but he would lack a significant gating mechanism. All this to say that resource has more to do with the character than just how they are balanced.
Well, Resource isn't only about gating, but also thematics.
-snip-
I completely agree good points!
if someone could explain why yasuo and riven aren't gated in any way now...
Limited by cooldowns. Right.
If she doesn't get a reset after jumping headlong into your whole team to ult, she is very, very screwed.
That is how cooldowns gate her, they supply the "risk" in her "high risk high reward" assassin kit.
If she doesn't get a reset after jumping into your team, two things:
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While I'm no red I can help explain the usual reasoning.
A resource is used when a champion's kit need to be 'gated', or limited, in a certain way that's cohesive to the kit's design.
Lack of a resource isn't lack of gating, it just reduces the gating to cooldowns only. This may seem strong initially until you realize the context resource less champs come out of.
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(Resource but still no cost)
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These champs have kits that are either very visibly 'triggered' or they're simple fighters with easy to identify play patterns. what this means is that there are enough ways to counter these champs that the additional worry of a resource running out would simply make them easy opponents with very little options available.
It's definitely a strength to be resourceless, don't get me wrong, but only comes in lieu of very obvious weaknesses.With the exception of Kat and Riven, for example, they're all very easily kited. You balance their resourcelessness by extenuating the weakness that justify they're lack of a resource. For Kat you can simply decrease her damage since her passive is the thing that her kit revolves around. Riven you can dull her early game edge, like her base sustain (which they've done before).
Now if you're also curious on reasoning behind using Energy vs. Mana vs. Rage I can give some reasoning behind that as well.
Source: I'm an avid champion conceptor and game design nerd.
forgot

if someone could explain why yasuo and riven aren't gated in any way now...
in yasuos case, because hes a melee carry. being a squishy in melee means you will only be effective in lane, if you can repeatedly trade without running out of mana.
melee carries are defined by being squishy and dealing a large amount of damage at short distance. now imagine you would pit a mana dependent yasuo against any bruiser.
as a melee carry, yasuo is a special case who doesnt have noticable attack steroids available early on like tryn or fiora, or yi. (at least before he actually manages to amount some crit). he is defined by his abilities. if he was mana geted with the same kit, he would be absolute trash.
since being resourceless is mainly an early game advantage, its his equivalent for the large amount of ad, or attack speed other melee carries have available very early on.
Yup I did forget those, which I'm curious as to how because Renek is one my favorite picks :P
I would say Rek'Sai is a good example of subverting mana for an alternative resource.
Her Unburrowed Q is (relative to many other auto attack modifiers) an extremely weak auto attack modifier that is distributed across multiple auto attacks. Seeing that auto attacks are already a resourceless function of the game, such a weak modifier to them would make no sense to overcost with mana (Look at mid S4 Malphite's buff where they massively reduced his W's mana cost).
Burrow is an entirely utility based ability that can not possibly be abused if spammed.
Unburrow is on a static cool down, and is telegraphed by both Rek'Sai needing to burrow and then get in melee range of her target, also making it virtually impossible to abuse if spammed.
Rek'Sai's Unburrowed E fits perfectly with the rage mechanic in that it only gets stronger the more rage she has - It's impossible to randomly burst someone down with it due to how her rage mechanic works/is consumed, but instead favors long drawn out fights. It's restricted almost because it's not mana based. Imagine having a non ult true damage nuke that you can activate at any time if you simply had the mana. That's Olaf territories of sketchy game design there.
Her Burrowed E, finally, is yet another example of an ability that can't really be abused if spammed, especially after you consider that tunnels can get stomped.
*I won't evaluate her ultimate since almost all ultimates are edge cases anyway
The only thing that really breaks this rule of being hard/impossible to abuse if spammed is Rek'Sai's burrowed Q, but Riot held so far back on that ability that it really isn't any problem at all in its current state.
I guess I could make an attempt, right? My thoughts?
I believe that the kits without mana tend to be more dependent on combinations and melee range. Now let me explain. Take Garen. His Q is a movement speed boost and an auto modifier, his W gives him more tankiness, his E gives him damage around him (and a lot of it at that) and his R is a somewhat ranged execute. He has no mobility besides running up to his target, nor is he heavily ranged. Katarina has a Q which does low damage without follow up. Her W is around her, and her E is a reasonably long cooldown to get her into a fight and keep her alive for a tiny bit longer, her ult requires her to be in the middle of them. She can't play the war of poke, she has to go all in to make the most of her kit. Shen has a low ranged Q, a shield, a dash and a global teleport shield. He has low distance without his dash, his dash is costly to miss. His Q can't be used to poke from miles away like mages.
Basically, from what I see, to make the most of their kit in general requires them to chain in abilities, and/or they tend to be up close and personal with the person they are fighting. I can see no resource-less champion who breaks this rule yet.
I guess I could make an attempt, right? My thoughts?
I believe that the kits without mana tend to be more dependent on combinations and melee range. Now let me explain. Take Garen. His Q is a movement speed boost and an auto modifier, his W gives him more tankiness, his E gives him damage around him (and a lot of it at that) and his R is a somewhat ranged execute. He has no mobility besides running up to his target, nor is he heavily ranged. Katarina has a Q which does low damage without follow up. Her W is around her, and her E is a reasonably long cooldown to get her into a fight and keep her alive for a tiny bit longer, her ult requires her to be in the middle of them. She can't play the war of poke, she has to go all in to make the most of her kit. Shen has a low ranged Q, a shield, a dash and a global teleport shield. He has low distance without his dash, his dash is costly to miss. His Q can't be used to poke from miles away like mages.
Basically, from what I see, to make the most of their kit in general requires them to chain in abilities, and/or they tend to be up close and personal with the person they are fighting. I can see no resource-less champion who breaks this rule yet.
Another good example is Riven. While she does a ton of damage and shines in 1 one 1 duels, she is REQUIRED to land her CC in a fair fight if she wants to win. Plus if she uses Q to gap close, she loses a lot of damage, if she uses E her only defensive ability is gone. She also relays a ton on abilities, her autos do nothing. Also, snares remove Riven's ability to use Q or E, denying her any escape or damage. Picking Olaf, Soraka, Morgana, etc counter Riven HARD. Riven is so rare in LCS due to not bring much to the table, but also being countered by very little.
Another good example is Riven. While she does a ton of damage and shines in 1 one 1 duels, she is REQUIRED to land her CC in a fair fight if she wants to win. Plus if she uses Q to gap close, she loses a lot of damage, if she uses E her only defensive ability is gone. She also relays a ton on abilities, her autos do nothing. Also, snares remove Riven's ability to use Q or E, denying her any escape or damage. Picking Olaf, Soraka, Morgana, etc counter Riven HARD. Riven is so rare in LCS due to not bring much to the table, but also being countered by very little.
Accutally, it is the fact that most of Riven's dmg comes from her AA is the reason she has no mana/energy. Basically, all of Riven's abilities are empowered Auto Attacks, which are resourceless. Her Q has a max distance of less than most dashes and is only a hair faster than just walking with T2 boots. Her W has a crazy short range and her E only scales off of AD. Even her Ult is just an AA modifyer with a small AoE execute that is similar in size to Graves' Buckshot.
Well for the energy bar it is easy
Are they a ninja? if yes, they are energy.
Shen... damn why did I have to be a ninja
Well it isn't so bad anymore... but before that energy buff to his E... damn was his energy hard to manage in teamfights and such
Like if only he could build a stat or something which would enable him to use his taunt more often and also not run out of mana oh wait... energy... well yeah and also CDR really isn't all that great when you use energy :(
but I want to use taunt and ult more...
monk not a ninja
Ahh but he renounced all forms of magic and trained in the same place our ninja characters did.
You're telling me his ward hop and sonic kick is not magic...
Magical to look at..but not magic in nature.
I remember the last time someone asked this question and also remember an answer. Riven has no resource because it would make trinity too efficient for her
EDIT: not my words
well they don't know the half of how resources work then. That may be part of the reason, but it isn't simply "we decide somebody's resource based on whether or not they should be able to abuse Trinity force for tons of damage."
I just don't even want to imagine a
with a fully stacked
item.
Having no resource seems like such a big advantage over other champions. Why do some champions not have to spend a resource for abilities? How do you balance that sort of thing?
Is the champ a ninja? Then it's energy based. Everyone else have more difficult criteria.
dice roll because RNGesus or no faith burn in hell LOL
I posted the exact same thing with almost the exact same title and got downvoted -20. lmao. So glad that you're more popular then me.
How about HP cost champs? Other than
I dont really see why they give it to who they do
How about HP cost champs? Other than
I dont really see why they give it to who they do
I answered this elsewhere but it's understandably hard to find, I'll just copy paste it here:
There are two ways to use health costs, % based and flat costs.
Flat costs are pretty much only there to limit a champion's early laning power. Effectively until they can itemize lifesteal, spell vamp or passive regen enough to nullify the cost. Morde getting a hextech revolver, for example. After that point the champion becomes effectively resource less and gets the strengths that comes with it. So, in other words, its a way to have a resourceless champion without having them resourceless at the very start.
Percentage health costs are mean to be a constant presence and acts very similarly to mana, where the design goal is to force pacing of a champion's spell use. However, health being health, running low on this resource does more than just make you unable to cast spells, it affects a champion defensively as well. Knwoing this, you may notice that all % health cost champions have some form of reliable health 'refund' mechanic. Zac has his blobs, Mundo has his cleaver hit, and Aatrox has his W toggle. This is because without some form of regen within the kit a champion will get actively punished by simply using their abilities. With a refund mechanic however, you can force specific interactions and develop unique weaknesses within a champion's kit. Aatrox, for example, has to trade a large amount of damage (damage-side W) in exchange for his health return (heal-side W).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz-PtEJEaqY
roughly this
Part of it is itemization. Can you imagine a Riven running with mana? You might think at first that it's a good idea, lowering her spammability, but the reality is that mana items are closed off to her. If she had mana, she would make INSANE use out of items like Trinity Force/Sheen.
On a similar footing, if Katarina had mana, she could abuse an item like Morellonomicon, given that heals are often one of the only ways to survive her combo.