Lee Sin Out of Place?

prepare2bSPANKED·May 3, 2015·3 votes·1,019 views

I get a feeling that Lee Sin is becoming one of the most out of place champions in the game. For several reasons he is both a very toxic champ to play with and against and his power to be played as a serious champ in the current metagame is little to none.

In terms of win rates he is absolutely terrible. According to http://champion.gg/champion/LeeSin/Jungle platinum elo and higher Lee Sin players with 125+ ranked games played on him (so basically the best of the best) only manage to average a 47.72% win rate. Arguably the best Lee Sin player in NA, Blem, only has a 49% win ratio with Lee (https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=blem ). Almost all of the League of Legends community acknowledges that a reliable way to win many games is to master one specific champion, but in Lee Sin's case complete mastery of him is still not enough to pull an even win ratio let alone climb. Even some of the "lowest tier" champions in the game (Elise, Syndra) still average >50% win ratios on champion.gg for players who fall into the 125+ games played category, but Lee Sin's over all power curve is so week that he fails to be viable even in the best of hands.

Another reason Lee Sin is "out of place" is because his early damage is so non-proportionate to almost all other champs, making him one of the most consistently complained about champions in board history. While Lee Sin is nowhere close to game breakingly strong he still is a very obnoxious champion to play against as he constantly bullies though the early game. The end result of playing Lee Sin is one team enjoys raging at each other as they throw 4v5 from a gigantic lead as Lee reaches his "useless point" as the other team enjoys pulling their hair out from obnoxious level 3 100 to 0's (while they evidently end up winning the game). I fail to see the fun involved with Lee Sin for either team involved.

I think what would be best for the champ would be reworks to his Q to make the moves damage scale better per level later into the game (similarly to the 4.4 proposed changes) and changes to his E to make its cc stronger at the early levels with lower early damage. That being said I'm not a member of a balance team but I think Lee would be best if he could be changed to maintain some of his early pressure while scaling slightly better. Thoughts?

TLDR Lee Sin is so bad hes not fun and makes everyone rage anyway rito pls.

13 Comments

Nucleophilic atkMay 3, 20154 votes

Ya know...I might feel bad if he didn't dominate the jungle for the past 3 seasons.

kcStrangerMay 3, 20151 votes

For more or less the reasons you gave, I think Lee Sin is headed for a rework...eventually. Problem is, a lot of champions need some amount of rework, and reworks are almost as difficult as designing a new champion. Lee Sin is probably fairly far down on the list since he's (in an uncomfortable way) OK as he now is...essentially unparalleled early-game presence and versatility with a crap late-game/teamfight presence to balance it out. And LCS teams still pick him because he can be good if you snowball his early game. He'd be unhealthy if he were much better, and unplayable if he were much worse. The Lee Sindrome.

SEKAIMay 3, 20151 votes

He is "out of place" why?

Think about such an occasion as having a Dark Souls character inside like say Warcraft 3, as one of the heroes you can acquire. You would have massive control over what he can do, his versatility brings unmeasurable assets to the team and he is almost never useless, save for the time he is just too numerically inferior in terms of stats.

Indeed you would need time to get used to his style and whatever, but once you get used to it there is just no one who can replace his significance. Hence assuming this hero is viable atm, everyone in the pro scene would use him because he is just way too useful.

That's the situation Lee is currently in, he is that Dark Souls character I just mentioned.

He doesn't belong to LoL, or his design philosophy if we're going to be technical. His design principles conflicts with LoL's design policy, and as such he was also receiving special treatment for years instead of getting an actual fix.

In short, rework this guy first, then deal with those that spawned from his image one by one later.

MalzaharAnyLaneMay 3, 20151 votes

I'd like to see what we'd have to do to the character's late-game if we remove ward-hopping or increase the CD's on his mobility. I have no problem with the ult except his ability to freely pop in and out of combat when there's creeps or allies present.

Ward hopping was a stupid mechanic anyway for people like Jax or Katarina too, tbh, it just breaks shit.

Ward hopping was a neat strategic consideration when he was forced to buy wards or sightstones, but instead he just uses the totems which means he and all the other ward hopping champions categorically don't use the totems for their intended purpose and have an unfair advantage over everyone else that previously used to cost a moderate amount of money.

In the long run, after skill shots are addressed (or not, as the case may be) the design teams will need to start addressing the actual purpose of walls in this game because they are too restrictive to most champions and non-existent to anyone with a non-targetted dash. Lee is just the epitome of this problem.

kcStrangerMay 3, 20151 votes

Hmm, that's an interesting point. Yeah, I might like to see the ward hopping mechanic removed and something else buffed slightly. It's a very weird mechanic, kind of gives you an extra flash for every ward you throw (or multiple if it makes sense strategically to keep hopping to the same ward).

SEKAIMay 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'd like to see what we'd have to do to the character's late-game if we remove ward-hopping or increase the CD's on his mobility. I have no problem with the ult except his ability to freely pop in and out of combat when there's creeps or allies present.

Ward hopping was a stupid mechanic anyway for people like Jax or Katarina too, tbh, it just breaks shit.

I, for one, am actually completely fine with ward hopping personally.

But I can not tolerate his ultimate, because as far as I know, that is a spell that really has 0 counterplay, it's a huge stat pool for no good reason nor does it have Any weakness or drawback fundamentally. All it brings is either a complete success or a 1 min or so cd if he failed and the outcome is completely in the hand of Lee's player.

That is not good, at all to me. Because anything that involves handing the burden of success completely onto 1 single player in a game that supposedly restricts everybody's capabilities to encourage team play is just, we are just giving 1 player too much power. Let's not even start with when he failed his kick, only trading 1 min cd for that is absolute an insult to the concept of failure punishments.

When he is played correctly (when he is viable), he would just have way too much power, hence irreplaceable in every previous pro scenes, everyone has to watch out for him doesn't matter who they're playing. That imo, is absolutely unbalanced.

I personally really don't mind him keeping ward hops, I want his current ulti changed.

MalzaharAnyLaneMay 3, 20151 votes

Either the ult or ward hopping has to go. Considering the roundhouse kick is his defining characteristic, the character is easier to balance once you have removed the attack speed slow and lifesteal from his kit (which has been done iirc) and just kill ward hopping. Failing that, just make it harder for him to escape. It's fine that he can initiate, but the characters that don't die for making stupid dives into the enemy team due to their mobility are the ones that cause rage and balance problems (Lee, Nidalee, Riven, Gragas, and a few other examples)

Flash is here to stay, I get that. The meta as it has been the past few years SHOULD NEVER HAVE EVOLVED AS IT IS but they decided to keep flash before ESports was even a consideration. It has poisoned and thoroughly tainted the game.

That being said, walls still need to be addressed across the board, or else mobility creep is going to eventually get out from underneath the current tank meta again.

It's totally fine for him to be a duelist, but if you don't tie his cooldowns to that ult, then he's going to escape the incoming counterganks top every time he bursts down the enemy laner.

SEKAIMay 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Either the ult or ward hopping has to go. Considering the roundhouse kick is his defining characteristic, the character is easier to balance once you have removed the attack speed slow and lifesteal from his kit (which has been done iirc) and just kill ward hopping. Failing that, just make it harder for him to escape. It's fine that he can initiate, but the characters that don't die for making stupid dives into the enemy team due to their mobility are the ones that cause rage and balance problems (Lee, Nidalee, Riven, Gragas, and a few other examples)

Indeed.

I am all for reducing his safety points, or really anybody else's if they have it too close to being over the chart. Lee's problem if you do strip it down to minimum level, is yes, him being way too safe for the most part if the player knows what he's doing.

A champion can have emphasis on either safety or strong engage/initiate, they are cool, but when they both exist on the same toon it just becomes problematic in the end of the day.

Still if Lee is going to keep his ulti, at least make the failure state actually means something. And not just "oh well he will be back later".

prepare2bSPANKEDMay 3, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Indeed.

I am all for reducing his safety points, or really anybody else's if they have it too close to being over the chart. Lee's problem if you do strip it down to minimum level, is yes, him being way too safe for the most part if the player knows what he's doing.

A champion can have emphasis on either safety or strong engage/initiate, they are cool, but when they both exist on the same toon it just becomes problematic in the end of the day.

Still if Lee is going to keep his ulti, at least make the failure state actually means something. And not just "oh well he will be back later".

Lee Sin's issue is the numbers. He cant be an assassin because his kit doesn't function properly for his scaling and he can't be a tank because his base defense stats aren't there. His moves don't need need to be remade just re-balanced. less damage on q and r level 6 more level 16. I think lee can have all the tricks he has already as long as the numbers add up right. People say Lee is an issue because he has "everything" but he has the shitty version of everything thus his playability is lacking. I really hope any future changes just re-balance his mechanics rather than remove them so Lee can remain Lee with the damage values to not troll everyone early game so hard and not fall off late so hard. This would basically turn Lee into more of a J4 (rounded power curve) than a Shaco (power curve highly favors early game) and result in a much more player friendly Lee Sin. If that makes sense lol.

prepare2bSPANKEDMay 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

He is "out of place" why?

Think about such an occasion as having a Dark Souls character inside like say Warcraft 3, as one of the heroes you can acquire. You would have massive control over what he can do, his versatility brings unmeasurable assets to the team and he is almost never useless, save for the time he is just too numerically inferior in terms of stats.

Indeed you would need time to get used to his style and whatever, but once you get used to it there is just no one who can replace his significance, hence assuming this hero is viable atm, everyone in the pro scene would use him as their main hero because he is just way too useful.

That's the situation Lee is currently in, he is that Dark Souls character I just mentioned.

He doesn't belong to LoL, or his design philosophy if we're going to be technical.

But people who are used to his style are insignificant in the late game to the point of him being extremely week. I just don't think his numbers are close to right for the time being.

SEKAIMay 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

But people who are used to his style are insignificant in the late game to the point of him being extremely week. I just don't think his numbers are close to right for the time being.

Currently he is not exactly viable that's why he is terrible. When he is again, he would simply go back to being top tier.

A champ like this deserve a rework no matter how you look at it really.

Darth Pixy MisaMay 3, 20151 votes

It is kinda nice to not see Lee and Vi every other game. Cinder hulk will get a nerf and Lee will be usefull but hopefully not #1 Jungler. Lee still has 180% ad on his Q and 200% ad on his R. Leblanc only has 200% ap on her Q and R.