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My Turn: A Rengar Rework Proposal

Rengar Rampage·6/14/2017, 8:37:30 PM·118 votes·3,966 views

Let's get to the point. I believe the new Rengar to not be fun to play as, with, or against.

The old Rengar was fluid and fun to play as, but I can admit that he was also frustrating to play against. All of a sudden dying just because a good Rengar knew how to stack his ferocity and use his abilities in such a way that they provide lethal damage, was simply not fun to play against. (It was very fun to play as though.) I'm a firm believer that Rengar's core issue was that he could stack ferocity AND keep it with his ult.

Regardless, he's gone. But, his new replacement is not fun. His Q feels clunky and unrewarding, his W supports being a tank/bruiser, and his ult too easily let's the enemy team prepare.

Now, do those characteristics scream to you as "assassin"? I would argue not. Rengar NEEDS to be an assassin.

Please note: Read in full to get an understanding towards the smallest of changes.

Here is my proposal:

//--------

Passive:

INNATE: While in brush, camouflaged, or invisible, Rengar's basic attacks have 700/725/750 (based on level) range and cause him to leap to enemies beyond melee range. This bonus lasts 0.5 seconds after leaving brush, camouflage, or invisibility. Leaping when on 0 ferocity generates 1 ferocity.

FEROCITY: Same as live, but stacks do not expire.

BONETOOTH NECKLACE: Unchanged.

//--------

Q: Savagery: REWORKED

ACTIVE: Rengar stabs a target. Range is same of Rengar's auto attacks. Will reset auto attack timer. Scales with bonus AD. NOTE: Think old Q, without the attack speed steroid. Also, Q is NOT an enhanced auto attack, but IS a targeted ability.

EMPOWERED ACTIVE: Same as active, with significantly higher damage. NOTE: Still no attack speed steroid, and no bonus AD for a short time as old Q had.

//--------

W: Juke: REWORKED

ACTIVE: When within auto attack range of an enemy, this ability can be cast. "Juke" backwards with a range of 400.

EMPOWERED ACTIVE: Same as active, with becoming invisible for 0.3 seconds. This will allow Rengar to proc his passive, jumping to an enemy once again.

NOTE: Current W just continues to add this weird defensive ability within an assassin. Just scrap it, and give Rengar some utility which when in the hands of a good Rengar, can be used defensively OR offensively.

//--------

E: Bola Strike: UNCHANGED NOTE: QoL buffs might be nice, but not essential.

//--------

R: Thrill of the Hunt: REWORKED

Rengar loses all stacks of ferocity. Autoattacking, using an ability or jumping will end Rengar's ult. Using an item (such as Youmuus Ghostblade) will not end Rengar's ult. Rengar globally ROARS (use animation and sound of current Battle Roar).

Over the course of the initial 4 seconds, Rengar gains momentum, having his speed increase from his normal speed up to 150% speed. Every 0.5 seconds, Rengar alternates from VISIBLE to CAMOUFLAGED. While VISIBLE, Rengar gains vision of all enemies within a specified range. While CAMOUFLAGED, Rengar only has vision of the closest enemy AND is allowed to utilize passive to jump to a target. This does mean that Rengar CANNOT jump while VISIBLE (unless in a bush, of course).

NOTE: Idea behind ult is to add decisions behind what Rengar will do, while allowing enemies a chance to SEE Rengar incoming, as well as his possible intentions. This also allows Rengar to play with the mind of the enemy, due to parsed information. There is no crit, no "hunted" visible note to an enemy. Their VISION and INITIAL global Battle Roar is what tools they're given to counter-play Rengar's Thrill of the Hunt.

//--------

This is my proposal. It may not be perfect, but I think it would be an interesting way to preserve the assassin identity of Rengar that so many love, and love to fear.

Best Regards,

Rengar Rampage

64 Comments

Dreadlocks6/14/2017, 10:11:37 PM13 votes

Interesting idea, I think the ult will be very wonky, but it could work... I personally don't like to talk numbers for this specific reason, but i'm going to suggest instead of .5s make it around 2-4 5 max, this will help with clarity, but i also think they need to give some indication (whether its a countdown above his head showing when he's about to camo again) or something..

Uhm, i gotta hand it to you, the W idea is actually freaking awesome. Most unique one ive seen thus far. One issue i have with it is "backwards" instead, let the player control where he dashes, and give it a small amount of damage go with it. It could be seen as kind of like a side swipe as he sprints past you. (in terms of visuals, think of how yasuo looks using E, but Rengar scratches the enemy(s) he passes through) This gives Rengar another skill-shot ability that he can either use for damage, or as you suggest, give him more maneuvers. If this ability does no damage, then Rengar only has 2 abilities that do damage and that could make balancing him awkward.

So if we give his W the dash "juke" like you suggest, which i admittedly think is unique and fitting. (seriously) then i propose we cut back the passive leap: 700/725/750 as you suggest. With my suggestion of letting him dash a short distances that he chooses, you can make more brush out-plays, which means he wouldn't have to rely on the distance of his jump range AS much.. but more so, just getting to one.

What do you think?

EvanThomas6/14/2017, 10:26:45 PM5 votes

This idea looks pretty cool. I've never played Rengar nor do I have any friends that play him, but I'd like to make a couple of suggestions anyways.

For his W, the name suggests something slightly different to me than just a leap backwards. After all, if a champion has a linear skillshot, jumping away from them isn't going to "juke" anything. Perhaps instead of a leap backwards, how about this: when within a small range of any enemy champion, Rengar may cast this ability to "juke" in any direction he pleases. This way, he can actually juke things, but he still has to be close to someone to use his mobility.

R sounds cool, but I'm thinking it might look a bit weird in game. I'm thinking something a bit different: You know the shimmering champion outline effect that happens when an invisible enemy takes damage? Maybe Rengar could have that while he's ulting: a shimmer effect every 0.5 seconds. Also, this fixes the potential clunkiness of trying to leap to someone while invis, but suddenly turning visible and screwing up your engage.

Just a couple of suggestions. That being said, I like the Jump/Attack - Q - Basic Attack damage combo this kit provides. It's "delayed burst" (which riot likes on assassins now), but it still seems very effective.

TheJan1tor6/15/2017, 12:26:31 AM1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rengar Rampage,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m4EMbARr,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-06-14T20:37:30.373+0000)

//--------

Passive:

INNATE: While in brush, camouflaged, or invisible, Rengar's basic attacks have 700/725/750 (based on level) range and cause him to leap to enemies beyond melee range. This bonus lasts 0.5 seconds after leaving brush, camouflage, or invisibility. Leaping when on 0 ferocity generates 1 ferocity.

FEROCITY: Same as live, but stacks do not expire.

If you're leaving the ferocity system where you only need 4 for an empowered ability, and you gain Ferocity just from Casting -- And you gain Ferocity from leaping (implying All leaps, not just the initial leap into combat -- unless this is just a poorly phrased explanation of what you're proposing) -- AND they don't expire? This is just busted.

//--------

Q: Savagery: REWORKED

ACTIVE: Rengar stabs a target. Range is same of Rengar's auto attacks. Will reset auto attack timer. Scales with bonus AD. NOTE: Think old Q, without the attack speed steroid. Also, Q is NOT an enhanced auto attack, but IS a targeted ability.

EMPOWERED ACTIVE: Same as active, with significantly higher damage. NOTE: Still no attack speed steroid, and no bonus AD for a short time as old Q had.

I'm personally not a fan of targeted abilities, which is why I don't play things like Talon or KhaZix. I'd rather either have an AA Enhancement or a skillshot, or even something like a Riven Q where it damages everything in the direction I'm facing. But that's just personal preference and mechanically there's nothing wrong with your suggestion. But between what you're proposing and what we already have, I'd rather take what we already have.

//--------

W: Juke: REWORKED

ACTIVE: When within auto attack range of an enemy, this ability can be cast. "Juke" backwards with a range of 400.

EMPOWERED ACTIVE: Same as active, with becoming invisible for 0.3 seconds. This will allow Rengar to proc his passive, jumping to an enemy once again.

NOTE: Current W just continues to add this weird defensive ability within an assassin. Just scrap it, and give Rengar some utility which when in the hands of a good Rengar, can be used defensively OR offensively.

I feel like this is a recipe for disaster at first, and can result in a lot of fidgety gameplay where you want to go in X direction but you end up going in a very different direction which will only add to the frustration of something we don't really want. If this were a Directed ability that would let Rengar choose a direction to dash in (and perhaps increasing the range when moving Away from enemies? Like an inverted Camille E?) then perhaps? Either way, seems really odd. Also, being down 1 whole damage spell, I'm assuming we're compensating somewhere else?

//--------

E: Bola Strike: UNCHANGED NOTE: QoL buffs might be nice, but not essential.

//--------

R: Thrill of the Hunt: REWORKED

Rengar loses all stacks of ferocity. Autoattacking, using an ability or jumping will end Rengar's ult. Using an item (such as Youmuus Ghostblade) will not end Rengar's ult. Rengar globally ROARS (use animation and sound of current Battle Roar).

Over the course of the initial 4 seconds, Rengar gains momentum, having his speed increase from his normal speed up to 150% speed.

Bonus Movement Speed. or Total Movement Speed?

Radiant Wukong6/15/2017, 7:01:43 AM1 votes

This seems well thought out, now think of something for Talon.

KuroCaliber6/15/2017, 11:26:00 AM1 votes

See my only issue with old rengar was that the only damage you could avoid in his kit was e. Everything else is either targeted or instantaneous enough to be used after the dash. If q had two parts where your stab them, and then after 2 seconds you activate it again while within the same q range to rip the knife out of them to do more damage, it would feel more like you had a chance, but my idea only works if death dance is nerfed a bit. It would make rengars choose to use w to stay in range to q again or get out

BabyNaix6/15/2017, 12:31:23 PM1 votes

I like your idea for the ult change. It makes rengar more elusive and take some skill to manage like gnar's rage bar. However, I think there should be some aoe damage on his q or w to help him clear the jungle.

Myozthirirn6/15/2017, 12:48:00 PM1 votes

This is just a shitty version of Khazix Passive: is khazix passive but leap instead of bonus damage Q: is kha zix Q but empowered on 5 stacks instead of empowered on isolated targets W: is shittier version of kha E E: is similar to kha W R: is a shittier version of kha R that sacrifices reliavility to last longer

Gear5Luffy6/15/2017, 1:32:32 PM1 votes

Why not make him more like his lore where his core theme was fighting against impossible odds and adding the extra dmg and effects of his spells the lower his health bar him making the quote the predator is more dangerous while wounded. my opinion

Piano Walrus6/15/2017, 7:53:13 PM1 votes

I actually love this idea, like I feel like it would be alot less stressful to play against, but at the same time alot more fun to play AS, like you said. I personally suck at rengar (old, new, probably this one too 😂) but I like how this one seems a bit more skill based than what we're used to seeing in his case (don't flame me, I know he takes skill, I just mean this would take more skill).

What I wanted to say though, I think mayyyybe change the name "Juke" to something an animalistic predatorial hunter who is feared by all, would use. Like even "sidestep" or like "lunge" idk but I just feel like "Juke" is a bit too fourth wall breaking. Like I can see "when rengar jukes, silver scrapes begins to play" in the future patch notes.

Maybe I'm wrong and it's an excellent name choice, that's just my (extra long because I talk way too much) 2 cents. Great idea otherwise, genuinely hope Riot considers this.

Hahhaah6/15/2017, 9:33:55 PM1 votes

i aggre that old rengar was better bcz of his passive and ultimate you could runn away with ulitmate but now it is used just as attacking ability

and passive should be as old : dont expire!!!!!!!

King Trashuo6/14/2017, 9:02:40 PM1 votes

Like the idea of q being a targeted spell, should have on-hit effects, but no crit, since crit is not the best thing to have on a spell (look at yas nobody likes him whispers except me). also maybe it should have slightly larger range when not in bush, that would allow for more flow (think the jax w buff this patch)

Might be fun too use some quotes when he ults, like "What a glorious hunt" and "Leave only a trail of bodies" instead of just roaring loudly, though this is minor and doesn't have impact on gameplay.

also, i personally dislike the new bonetooth necklace, it's over all bland and would like some sort of diversity. I always thought it would be nice to gain a buff according to what kind of target he killed, like adc=extra flat armor pen, while tank=%armor pen, but still limited to 1 per champ, and it would change through out the game, example might be, facing jax, he builds damage early therefore it might give flat armor pen, but when it reaches a certain threshold of x bonus armor, then when he killed him, the stack would change into % armor pen. that is just one example, but something that changes based on the opponent to fit his hunter theme, becoming more adept at killing his targets, as he learns more about them (by dissecting them)

w seems weird or maybe just a little hard to understand, what do you mean by backwards, away from nearest enemy? backwards as in from your models rotation? both have potential issues, but i would like the second one the most, since it allows for more outplaying. and also, what do you mean be aa range, does that also account for extra range provided by bushes?

lastly his ult. well i already covered part of it, but the fading part, I'm guessing the .5 is only a placeholder number because there is no way to change it, but personally i don't think he should be seen as much as he should be invis/camo, more like 1:2, 2:3 or 3:4 (could even make it scale with lvl, so he would be more invis/camo at lvl 3 ult than at lvl 1 ult)

Hinagiku336/15/2017, 10:28:27 PM1 votes

I like the amount of thought you clearly put into this, but I would never want these changes to go through. The mechanics alone would make this version of Rengar brokenly overpowered unless his numbers were trash.

Passive:

  • Letting Rengar's leap distance increase by any means will not happen. Riot wants abilities like this to be consistent so players only have to memorize the base range and the enhanced range, not a whole spectrum of possible ranges. This would only increase his frustration factor.
  • Ferocity stacks not falling off would require nerfs to the damage of Rengar's empowered abilities. They can be strong now because they are not guaranteed. But Rengar is extremely obnoxious top lane where he can camp the bushes and spam his passive leap to land his abilities, and letting him stack up over time to land a guaranteed empowered ability with no risk (since he can now back off after each cast instead of having to all-in or lose his stacks) would be overpowered unless the damage was lowered.

Q:

  • This is just bringing back the old, toxic Rengar. This change lets him leap->auto from brush, instantly Q, then auto again with the reset to one-shot people with no counterplay. This pattern is exactly why Rengar is stuck with his current Q. The attack speed didn't matter since his target was dead anyway. The only way this has counterplay is if you remove the auto-attack reset and give the Q stab an animation that cannot be canceled so that Rengar's opponents have at least a fraction of a second to react.
  • "Significantly higher damage" on the empowered Q would be just obscene with the other changes. It's damage would have to be severely reduced given the other changes, or else Rengar is back to one-shotting people from bush/stealth only this time his Ferocity stacks don't fall off so it's even more reliable.

W:

  • Please God no. This is just Quinn's Vault but far worse for the opponent. At least Quinn can be targeted the instant she lands to try and prevent her from proc'ing her mark. Giving Rengar an escape is one thing. Giving Rengar an escape that prevents his opponent from using most ranged abilities to try and retaliate or prevent said escape is annoying. Giving Rengar an escape that lets him instantly use his passive leap to score extra targeted (instant, non-avoidable) damage that can then be chained into the auto->Q->auto combo I mentioned above is just not fair.

E:

  • Rengar's Bola needs QoL changes? What's wrong with it?

R:

  • Actually seems interesting and better than what he's had in the past. The only problem is the changes I mentioned above giving him an extremely toxic play pattern outside of his ult. Adding his ult's stealth into the mix would just make him as bad as original Rengar.
Shablagoo6/15/2017, 12:16:00 AM1 votes

Thank you someone who is proposing ideas, and thinking of switching him fully into a assassin.