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Instead of replacing Zeke's with another item, why not just ADD an item?

Mandang0·6/29/2015, 10:29:37 PM·131 votes·5,353 views

Why does Riot feel like we need to be capped at a specific number of items in the game? Why can't we have both?

As it stands, Zeke's is the one aura item that actually helps AD casters, and acts as a nice analogue to what Abyssal does for AP champs (was closer when it was Stark's, but still). Players just got done expressing how much they dislike losing magus to get runeglaive, and it's a sentiment that's been expressed in the past (probably will be again if you decide to push through the Abyssal replacement)... and now you want to push Zeke's out? I understand it's not the most popular item, but it's actually GOOD. If you want to look at helping items, how about starting with the items that actually suck (every other support item besides Locket/Zeke's/Crucible/maybe Censer).

Also, on a separate note, can we get MORE manaless items rather than fewer? It opens up so many more build paths when I can choose to get my mana on one item and not have to double down on it. Is Zekes' 250 mana going to be enough to sustain a build that needs mana? No. Are there other items that don't sustain a build by themselves, but count on picking up another 250 mana to help you do so? No, it's a bit greedy for support to count on that. Please let us keep old Zeke's if you feel the need to push this item into the game.

173 Comments

Lapis x36/30/2015, 12:47:46 AM11 votes

I actually like building the current Zeke's Herald...and if it goes, I'm going to be disappointed.

But knowing Riot, they'll just remove it like they did with Magus :(

SaltyKracka6/30/2015, 12:17:13 AM9 votes

Not like anybody actually like's Zeke's as it is now. No big loss.

Jungle Lux God6/30/2015, 12:46:17 AM7 votes

Why keep a bad item and add a good item when you can change a bad item to make it good?

Live Zeke's Herald isn't a good item. It's certainly cost efficient, but the number of champions that can use it's effect needs to be really high in order to make it good. For it to be good, you need a heavy AD comp to make it work, as 20 AD and 10% life steal isn't good on the tank or AP carries, and it certainly isn't good on the support that is using it.

Then you do build a heavy AD comp to use it, but the problem with that is that the enemy team is just going to stack armor. At that point, your 10% life steal and 20 AD on every AD champ you have isn't going to be useful either, even with your team's armor penetration.

This also doesn't include the fact that the stats are TERRIBLE. 20% CDR is nice, but it limits your build options due to the CDR cap. You get 20% from this and 10% from your support item, leaving you with 10% CDR to fill your build with, and that is assuming you aren't running any CDR from masteries. This doesn't include the fact that most support items already have CDR on them, with the exception of Sightstone. 250 health also doesn't do much either.

Then look at PBE Zeke's Herald. Decent stats and an amazing active with a lot of utility on it that can even be useful on AP champs. It's still the support item oriented towards AD champions, it's just focused on making one champ insane and less on making the whole team a tiny bit better.

Kuroi866/30/2015, 3:29:06 AM6 votes

Players just got done expressing how much they dislike losing magus to get runeglaive, and it's a sentiment that's been expressed in the past (probably will be again if you decide to push through the Abyssal replacement).

Actually, I like the idea of the abyssal rework. While it won't be much of a mage/assassin item anymore, it will be a pretty huge buff to tank champs, especially when you combo with Sunfire/Cinderhulk.

ComannderShepard6/29/2015, 11:21:37 PM4 votes

I agree have a +1

BLU Medic6/30/2015, 2:01:34 PM4 votes

I agree. Zeke's may be underused, but I like it. Make a new item, don't trash an old one.

Same with Abyssal Scepter.

General Veers6/30/2015, 5:23:42 PM4 votes

I main GP support.

I found it really fun to analyse the game state to decide whether or not to pick Zeke's up. It even affected my mastery choices pre game if I thought the team was one that could do well with Zeke's. Meaningful mastery and build path choice are pretty rare for supports, and part of the reason why I grew to prefer GP to the other options.

I understand the "hidden power" argument against bonus stat auras, but I disagree with the analysis of it's impact. When I pick up Zeke's and our team is behind and then suddenly demolishes in a team fight, I more often than not get a comment from my team going "uhhh what just happened?!". Conversation about Zeke's ensues, and sometimes rallies a demoralized team - not only is this particularly satisfying for a support player, but even better for sup GP main, to get some kudos instead of the MUCH more common raging and presumed uselessness.

I will miss this item. I will miss current GP when he is gone. I am nervous about the place a player like myself will have in this game afterwards.

Need Gold 4 Tent6/30/2015, 7:30:59 AM3 votes

As a general suggestion for everything Riot's been doing right now:

Why not keep both? -> Stacking might make it OP -> Make them share same unique passive names? -> Problem solved.

iainB856/30/2015, 1:21:00 PM3 votes

It used to be burden of knowledge to learn the game.

However, they don't seem too concerned with that on champion designs anymore as every new champion has at least one ability that's description is a paragraph and a headache to understand without seeing it in game.

Ovion6/30/2015, 1:45:12 PM3 votes

They are removing old Zeke's because they want diversity, just like when they removed Magus and the summoner spell Revive... ... ... lol

Blastermine6/30/2015, 2:25:18 PM3 votes

I bought old Zeke's on Nami when we had 3 AD characters. You really didn't need an all ad team. Even tanks have to auto attack so the aura is only wasted on mages and supports.

Lorinne6/30/2015, 2:25:28 PM3 votes

I was really upset when I saw the Zeke's changes. It's such an unique item! If they feel like they HAVE to rework it, I wish they'd do something else than just turning it into another AP support item... Zeke's identity is that it gives lifesteal and AD to allies, and it's a rarely chosen item but I can remember all the times I've built it. And it was great when I actually had need for it. I want them to add this "rework" as a new item and to do something else with Zeke's but to do something with it that doesn't change it into something unrecognizable. Keep it AD/lifesteal related. Let it have it's little niche identity. It doesn't have to be a must-buy item to be a good item. And if they insist on changing EVERYTHING about the item so that it shares no similarities with its current state whatsoever (which I think this change does), just retire Zeke's and add the item under a new name...because this thing, whatever it is, is definitely not a Zeke's Herald.

FatesDefiler6/30/2015, 2:09:26 AM3 votes

if anything, the new version seems superfluous when the old version filled a core niche that no other item even attempts to replicate. would seem obvious to me, but how do you reason with people that honestly can't tell whether a change is going to hurt or help a character?

Lavaniel6/30/2015, 2:21:52 PM2 votes

I LOVE, I mean L O V E Zeke's Herald when I play my aura supports. Basically what I'm saying is, when I play Soraka and my duo buddy is playing Vayne, having some extra AD and Lifesteal is always perfect and great since I don't need to live I need to let my carries live to dominate.

MLDzXnRRR6/30/2015, 6:32:50 AM2 votes

Giving free crit to the ADC, so fun, this game progresses in a good way...

AMYS GRAVE6/30/2015, 3:05:56 PM2 votes

Yeah, i like the current Zeke's and don't really see a need for a rework.

That said if there were both items why would you chose one over the other. When two items are close enough to each other stat wise one will fall by the wayside because its just the worse choice a majority of the time.

Yatsufuså7/1/2015, 2:17:37 AM2 votes

Of the 750+ games I've played, I have only ever seen Zeke's built maybe 4 times, and all of those times I was the one who built it.

Does this mean they should remove it? No. Does this mean this new Zeke's sounds like a bad idea? No. Should they keep the current Zeke's and then introduce a new item? Not really.

There's no right or wrong way to go about this situation. I personally think the current Zeke's is fine and shouldn't be tinkered with at all, but is that what Riot thinks? Well, considering the dilemma at hand, no. Does that mean we as a community should complain? No.

gaby1best6/30/2015, 4:06:26 PM2 votes

Think of your last 500 matches. o you remember anyone buying that item? I believe the item being reworked is a good thing, personally I have only bought him once on Olaf during the Snowdown Showdown event last year. The item was just not giving enough to be bought over other better items.

Also, what support items do you think are bad?

Bhargo6/30/2015, 7:44:34 PM2 votes

Riot seems to buy into the idea that if an item isn't bought 100% of the time on certain champs/archetypes it's useless and needs to be removed or reworked

Simpumba6/30/2015, 2:21:43 PM2 votes

I agree so much with this. I'm tired of riot removing items and giving us a shitty replacement. (I HATE LUDENS ECHO WITH A PASSION. RIP DFG).they really need to stop removing items.

kitcat3006/30/2015, 4:02:02 PM1 votes

Here is a response about live Zeke's on the PBE boards.

[{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=lEXEsgWL,comment-id=00090002,timestamp=2015-06-30T05:11:31.489+0000)

Just wanted to chip in some context on why Zeke's needed this style of update.

Basically, live Zeke's requires all of the following to be true in a given game in order to be an efficient item:

Your team must have multiple high-scaling AD auto attackers

You must be a peel support located near them and able to sacrifice an item slot to help them

Your opponents must be doing something (typically multiple Thornmails and minimal/no wombo combo) to increase the value of lifesteal

Add this to a bunch of clarity and satisfaction issues (invisible auras are always undervalued relative to their power level), plus an "ADC slave" element where you don't get to feel good about your own item purchase (unless you're support Gangplank), and you have an item which, even if balanced to actually be strong, very few players will ever buy or appreciate. The only way to get players to value it would be to make it egregiously overpowered.

One thing I want to call out, by the way:

You're getting at a really important concept - that the ability to understand itemization at a level where you can adapt within a game is a valued skill. That's a skill I'd really like to see more of - but with fully supported, valuable items that do broadly different things, rather than extremely niche items. In this case, it's very unlikely that you'll be able to fit both new Zeke's and Mikael's in a single build (not impossible, but you'll be sacrificing other stuff) - understanding when one or the other is more likely to help win the game is both an important decision and a nuanced decision, assuming we hit a good state balance-wise.

tl;dr: Old Zeke's was too specific to realistically be able to support and barely purchased; new Zeke's is a very different item but also an item that can be supported more broadly; we believe new Zeke's does offer interesting and nuanced decision-making in the support itemization space.