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Is Shaco the perfect idea of what an assassin should be?

uJhisper·5/9/2016, 7:37:34 PM·153 votes·10,848 views

_Please remain open minded. I'd much rather have a comments destroying me than silly downvotes. Thanks! _

  • Fragile
  • Strong, but difficult to master
  • Little to no utility (cough Ekko cough)
  • Tricky to play against but easily shut down
  • Relies on skirmishing
  • Shut down by tanks/bruisers
  • Shuts down squishies

Shockingly, I feel like if more assassins were similar to Shaco, they'd be less problematic. This is also applies to Leblanc Leblanc, although she is sometimes frustrating to deal with, she's quite useless -- similar to Shaco -- when unfed or played incorrectly. And let's be honest, you'd much rather be against a Shaco than a Zed or Ekko this season.

In all, an assassin should feel like a major threat but also major dead weight for the enemy team if played badly.

The difference between assassins like Shaco/LB & Zed/Ekko is that one group can get shut down for the entire game while the latter doesn't, and always has a chance of snowballing over 1-2 kills.

275 Comments

Alüe5/9/2016, 7:42:28 PM76 votes

Shaco Talon Rengar Khazix all assassins i feel fine getting blown up by. Why? if i manage to flash, cc or just get away in general i can punish them then. Unlike Zed Ekko Leblanc Fizz who all have the opportunity to reset or escape if they messed up.

uJhisper5/9/2016, 8:35:22 PM38 votes

I don't understand why people say that Shaco goes in and dies.

Usually, when I go in, I obviously focus the ADC. If I'm confident with my damage, I'm also sure that I will kill him/her.

After evaporating their ADC, and realizing they've just lost their major source of damage, I pop my ult to confuse whoever jumps on me. By the time this happens, my Q is already up & my team has followed up.

I understand where Shaco does die in teamfights but that rarely happens due to the time your ult buys you. You just need to know how vulnerable you are.

L Psy Kongroo5/9/2016, 8:08:29 PM32 votes

The two main problem areas where Shaco differs from other popular assassins are:

  1. He cannot build tank and still deal lots of damage. His entire kit (with the exception of his boxes) relies on building AD. His passive is reliant on your total AD, his Q, while a crit, only does damage if you build AD (because 220% of zero is still zero), his E scales off bonus AD, and his clone matches your stats. Therefore, if you're not building damage, you won't do damage.

Compare this to an "assassin" like Ekko who has great base damage on all his abilities, and also brings a slew of utility. Ekko can get away with building 1, maybe 2 offensive items then going for full tank items such as Sunfire, Iceborn, Spirit Visage, etc. If you build only Hydra (a common first-item for Shaco) then go into full tank trying to be Ekko, you will be nothing but a liability for your team.

  1. He does not have any way to escape fights once he's in them. This point is more debatable, since a lot of pro Shaco players can use clever box placement/bait tactics, their ult invulnerability, and their perma-slow to ensure they survive in teamfights. However, compare this to an assassin like Zed or LeBlanc, who have multiple dashes, their Flash (no Shaco worth his salt takes Flash), and their ability to return to their point of origin when things get ugly (Zed through his ult, and LB through her W/ult return pad).

The result is obvious; while Shaco has an easier time getting onto his target, he has a MUCH harder time getting out. This is not necessarily a bad thing. Perfect timing, sound analysis of a situation, quick reflexes, and being able to recognize opportunities are all part of what makes Shaco so rewarding to play. A large part of Shaco's skill-cap lies in a player's strategic knowledge rather than game mechanics.

How this relates to my original point is that other assassins don't have to make these kinds of decisions. They are more mechanics-based; they require a different kind of knowledge to play well. Shaco's general inability to escape from fights when his Q is down puts him at a disadvantage when compared to similar assassins.

There's also the problem of red trinkets and pink wards that the other assassins have no fear of. If even one enemy has their red trinket active during a teamfight, Shaco's job is infinitely harder. But against Zed, LB, Ekko, and Fizz, these items mean nothing. Again, their counterplay often lies in mechanical knowledge as opposed to strategic knowledge.

I consider this one of the main reasons players hate Shaco so much. Any idiot can learn mechanics; hell, given enough time I could probably teach my dog how to play Fizz, or Zed. But logic, tactics, critical thinking, and strategy are not so easy to learn, especially in a game with so many variables as this one. Many diamond players still struggle with basic concepts like minion management, matchups, counter-jungling, movement prediction, timing, and rotations.

Now imagine a champion that has to worry about all these things and more in order to be played well. That is Shaco. And it is why Shaco is so difficult to both learn and play against for a lot of people. His kit is rather simple when you think about it; but the possibilities are literally endless.

Just some thoughts from someone with over 300K mastery points on Shaco.

BIAKaboose5/10/2016, 12:29:53 AM10 votes

I think what it really boils down to is that Shaco punishes players, not champions. If a player makes a mistake, Shaco is there ready to gut them, if you just pick the wrong champion but are decent it doesn't really matter who you picked, Shaco has issues against almost every character in the game that you will see on a regular basis. Against other assassins his damage or mobility falls short, against tanks he just doesn't deal damage, against ADCs if they can get a few steps on him he's very hard pressed to keep going. Shaco is the reality check for most people who just want to play the flavor of the month with no real knowledge on how to do so, moreover Shaco must be played against in a different way than the norm, he makes players uncomfortable by changing the way the game is played and punishes them if they cannot adapt.

Shaco is an interesting assassin as he requires more than just a knowledge of combos and when to go in, you have to learn how the enemy players play the game and twist that far enough to make them unable to perform at a normal level giving your team an edge. Shaco also relies so heavily on the level 1-3 moments unlike most assassins who wait until level 6 to make any moves. Judging in those brief early game moments on where to gank, if you should invade, if the enemy jungler is looking for early ganks and where they will go so you can show up to tip the scale in your favor. It's a very different way of playing the game, and it makes it all that more interesting to play both with and around, maybe not enjoyable sometimes, but interesting none the less.

Shaco for me is the perfect assassin. In the game right now so many assassins focus on flashy plays, long combos, repositioning at every step of a fight, and then you have Shaco. Shaco is the embodiment of lethal efficiency, paired with confusion and deception to give you an upper hand as opposed to just walking into 5 people and walking out of a pile of bodies, it requires more... finesse I suppose is a good word for it. Sorry, I could go on about Shaco and his design points and such for hours, and already have a handful of times in the past, I'll leave my thoughts here and move on, good post OP.

Beacon 0F Light5/10/2016, 4:46:34 AM8 votes

Just add

  • Infuriating to play against
  • Insanely feast or famine

and yeah I suppose so.

cinomenapplebae5/9/2016, 10:17:42 PM8 votes

I feel like Katarina Evelynn Shaco are balanced assassins who all have noticeable counterplay

Karma Deified5/10/2016, 5:39:52 AM7 votes

No. Not at all.

He is the absolute extreme case of feast or famine. Oppressive when ahead, nearly useless when behind.

The oppression comes in the form of mechanics and designs that no longer have a true place in the game.

  • Stealth, leading to item reliant counterplay.
  • Melee Carry stat binding.
  • Low interaction kit.

While Shaco does require skill to play effectively, it is not the kind of skill that opens up much potential to play against.

The healthiest assassins in the game all have very clear methods to play against while not being brutally punished for not dominating early on.

Ahri Zed Fizz Yasuo

Some may disagree with their health based on experiences. But from a pure design perspective, we can see very clear and non-outdated elements of power in their kit.

Playing against these champs, you can easily read how to play against them.

**Ahri **

  • Pink skillshot allows her to land the rest of her abilities. Avoid it and try to fight when it's not up.
  • She can dash but it leaves her with no escape. Try to force her to waste it so you can kill her.

**Zed **

  • He has an escape via his shadow. But he also uses this to try to damage you. Take advantage of it.
  • When he blinks onto you, he tries to unload everything on you and then you take a lot of damage after a delay. Seek to avoid taking any further damage after you see the mark.
  • Additionally, he can blink back to his original position, stay focused on it once you gain the upper hand.

Fizz

  • Requires the use of an escape to reach you in most cases. Force him t use it defensively before he decides to use it offensively.
  • His ult is an overall death sentence. Dodge it and fighting him will be much easier.

Yasuo

  • He has a lot more inputs than you required to do anything, take advantage of this to force mistakes.
  • He has an extended range after 2 sword stabs, take note and don't get knocked up.
  • He can't effectively reach you without your minions. Take note of it.

Shaco

  • You don't really know when he'll be present without buying an item. Even then, he can destroy the tool you obtained.
  • You have no real indication of his damage increase when your back is turned.
  • Other than counting CD, you don't really know when he can escape again.
  • There's no indication other than taking further hits that he can no longer slow you once shiv is down.
  • Other than experience, potentially futile efforts, or secret tricks, there is little in the way of differentiating between the clone and Shaco.

Assuming a player knows everything listed here, Ahri, Zed, Fizz and Yasuo can still be pretty effective if they play right.

Shaco on the other hand, tends to fail in all the but the most skilled hands unless there's a lack of knowledge or experience present in the enemy.

Dr Poro5/10/2016, 11:41:40 AM5 votes

Summarized: Stealth is a great mechanic for assassins. Why? Because it's a mechanic that allows you to get close without being a gap-closer. Stealth creates a mind game, but your opponent is still as fast as you. If you run towards the wrong direction, you're screwed. That makes stealth assassins less safe than for example zed, ekko, leblanc who can blink back a long distance after having done their job, being out of any danger without any possible counterplay other than instant perma-CC.

Baby Ghoul5/10/2016, 1:35:24 AM5 votes

He's not because of his stealth.

Compared to most assassins right now though? Absolutely.

But if Riot ever deletes Ekko and brings back the feast or famine model that is necessary for all assassins, he's going to be one of the worst of them because of his stealth. An assassin should be a hyper mobile glass cannon, and the vast majority of them could function with zero utility. Rengar, Kha'zix, Evelynn, and Shaco used to absolutely piss everyone and their mother off. We've just forgotten because it's been so long. The only reason they aren't now is because other assassins have taken their place at the top of the meta. (Ekko, Zed, Fizz, LeBlanc, etc.)

I think assassins as a whole should be a niche pick. They should thrive on disorganized teams, but as you move up, and with the introduction of dynamic queue this season, that's hard to find. You're usually better off picking someone else.

CasterGilgamesh5/10/2016, 12:14:43 AM4 votes

Meh Talon is a better balance. he is weak early game giving any Mage some time to scale and with decent wave clear a good chance to just push him under tower. he is very rewarding to play if you play him properly and he has no escape besides hoping he doesn't get blown up before his ult. Also even if he gets fed one simple pink ward makes it easy for the team too CC him plus unlike Rengar unless he is really fed and going glass cannon he can't one shot someone without serious risk of them flashing and retaliating and since he needs cut throat to gap close he can't try again

Iceborn Pippin5/11/2016, 1:35:01 AM4 votes

I would say Talon and Shaco are very good examples of healthy assassins at least in today's meta.

I would say Zed and Ekko are very good examples of unhealthy assassins at least in today's meta.

Yet between the unhealthy ones i mentioned I would say that Ekko is the least healthy of all assassins. Not his damage, an assassin with damage is fine. Its how much utility he packs that allows me to view him as unhealthy. As the more utility a character has, the stronger they are in the meta. If Ekko's kit didn't have as much utility he would most certainly be weaker than at his peak. Yet it simply goes beyond utility for Ekko.

Yet what differentiates these two melee assassins Ekko and Shaco?

Shaco: A passive that increases the damage on his (E) and when attacking an enemy's back. A blink that also keeps hims stealthed for a few seconds on his (Q). A small construct that stealths and when an enemy gets to close it fears it and damages them for a few seconds on his (W). A point-and-click damaging slow on his (E). A ultimate that is both used for its damage and mindgame potential as it creates a controllable minion for the Shaco that can also attack and when slain can also damage enemies around in on death.

Ekko: A slow and movement speed boost on his passive. A skillshot that damages and slows on his (Q). A large AoE sized field that slows and stuns, shields him, passively provides him health shred; all of this on his (W). A dash that also applies extra damage and procs on-hit effects on his (E). An ultimate that allows Ekko to do a lengthy retreat, heal and damage any who are within the area he retreated to.

Amount of CC on Shaco's kit: (1) slow. (1) fear. Amount of CC on Ekko's kit: (3) slows. (1) stun.

Total CC: Shaco 2, Ekko 4.

Amount of Escapes on Shaco's Kit: (1) blink+stealth on his Q. (1) fear on his W. (1) mindgame-based ultimate. (1) slow on his E. Amount of Escapes on Ekko's Kit: (1) slow+movement speed boost on his passive. (1) damaging slow skillshot on his Q. (1) slow+stun+shield on his W. (1) dash on his E. (1) potentially long range repositioning tool that also heals Ekko for an ultimate.

Total Escapes: Shaco 4, Ekko 5.

Amount of Damage Factors in Shaco's Kit: His passive, W, E, R. Amount of Damage Factors in Ekko's Kit: His passive, Q, W, E, R.

Total Damage Factors: Shaco 4, Ekko 5.

Amount of Built-in Sustain in Shaco's Kit: [None] Amount of Built-in Sustain in Ekko's Kit: The shield he gets from his W. The heal he gets from his R.

Total Built-in Sustain: Shaco 0, Ekko 2.

Wyrmblade5/10/2016, 10:56:20 PM3 votes

Lots of assassins need to be squishier. I thought tracer would annoy the shit out of me in Overwatch but since I can kill her easily if I do catch her it doesn't feel bad dying to her.

Llanite5/10/2016, 3:08:55 AM3 votes

No game (or IRL) ever defined an assassin to be deadweight if they aren't fed.

The only common rule is that assassin has little to no AOE, fragile and have high single-target burst. I'm interested to know where you pulled your source from.

TheOvermind5/10/2016, 12:26:15 PM3 votes

The Biggest thing about Shaco is, that once he Qs in for his assassination damage (the big crit) He is well and truly comitted. No Way out. No BS Khazix resets, no BS Rengar Movement speed, no BS Zed and LB blink back, no BS Ekko ult, no BS fizz zhonias into troll pole. The only thing he can do is use his ultimate properly to avoid some CC and maybe manage to confuse his chasers. He has to blow up that squishy to be considered useful for the team and not dead weight. There is no safety net if he fails. He has to choose his moment very carefully and proceed from an excellent flanking position and use his Q stealtth duration perfectly.

Speedphoenix5/10/2016, 2:55:41 PM3 votes

YES

bvcderrttyyhjjjk5/10/2016, 3:05:38 PM3 votes

I actually think he is top 3 most toxic kits in the game. I think Kha'Zix is the "perfect assassin". Shaco IMHO feels like he completely lacks counterplay and can get away with anything, to the point most don't even get flash on him. When you fight him, you either die or he gets away and wastes your time. There is no scenario in which you win, unless he's a really garbage player. And with a slow and a point and click ranged nuke as well, flash built into his kit with extra stealth capability, uncounterable ganks... balanced? Not really. If he is not completely clueless, there is no way you can catch him or get away. Other assassins AT LEAST have no way to escape if they fail to one-shot. Kha'Zix for example is a much more high skillcap assassin; you better be on point with your positioning and all-ins, or you will just die. But he can be countered by any amount of decent teamwork (I.E. vision and grouping).

Shaco is on par with Zed and LeBlanc as far as one-shotting everyone with little to no risk involved, but he doesn't even have the problem of having the possibility of being starved for gold, cause he does not need to lane, and you can call yourself happy if HE does not invade YOU. Practically nothing you can do except hoping he's a bad player. And yes, he falls off late game. But he will still split push and never be punished for it. So no, not a good example of a healthy champion.

fractalfantasies5/11/2016, 6:43:41 PM2 votes

Short answer: OP is 100% correct

Long answer: Shaco is the best designed assassin and it's unbelievable that Riot considered reworking him.

-He actually feels like an assassin, he is sneaky and relies on good decision making -His Q is very fair, either you engage with it, or escape with it, not both -He's very strong when you plan correctly, but doesn't have a tonne of unfair escapes -Extremely good at taking out high value targets, but punished if the enemy team is well coordinated

Crucially, he is an assassin rather than a hypermobile burst mage

ChaosThief5/11/2016, 7:19:48 PM2 votes

Ok now utility is fine. But maybe, just maybe, you don't need to give them 2 slows, one that speeds you up, an AOE stun with a shield, and a healing ult.

I play ekko. I would be fine with just the shield and speed up. He shouldn't be modifying everyone's time just his own.