Grievous Wounds is Reverted, Soraka is Slain, but Should it Exist? - A Nuanced Look

Aqua Dragon··132 votes·11,404 views

Aqua Dragon here; One of the undernoted aspects of the 6.9 Patch was the reverting of Grievous Wounds to work with all healing instead of just self healing.

Additionally, The Grievous Wounds application from Morello was changed to last longer, but is harder to apply

For those unaware, Grievous Wounds is a debuff that reduces healing by 40%. It exists on Ignite and is applied by Executioner's Calling and Morellonomicon. This change hits heavy sustain champions pretty hard. Notably, everyone who hates Soraka rejoiced. Coupled with the nerfs, Soraka’s winrate has fallen to a more manageable level. League of Legends became a perfect game and nobody complained about balance ever again.

But underlying this victory is a much broader question about what place Grievous Wounds has in the game. I will outline why Grievous Wounds must be problematically binary, then why it’s inherently difficult to communicate, and finally why it must exist, while noting some potential directions it could take.


#Why Grievous Wound is Binary, and Must Be

GW serves as a hard counter to heavy sustain compositions. It seems to do the job fine, despite being a fairly heavy-handed, but it puts sustain champions into a super binary situation where all sustain has to be based around the existence of GW, or risk have the healing put into irrelevancy

As an example, healing that’s ‘supposed’ to do 100 must actually do 140 instead. But then, whenever GW isn’t available, this “overtuned” healing becomes absolutely overbearing to play against (Mundo, Soraka). Worse, it means any champion who is balanced around Moderate healing to survive becomes extremely crippled, as one of their only defensive mechanisms is an enormous 40% less effective (Trundle).

##Why Weakening Sustain is Not the Same as Weakening Damage

Exhaust might appear to do something similar initially, but sustain is fundamentally different from damage. Weaker damage can make things poor briefly, but the user can still contribute. Phrased another way, Damage goes from 0 to 100, where 0 is no damage and 100 is Annie. But sustain, by nature, doesn’t exist on that spectrum. Instead, Sustain exists from -50 to 50, where 0 is the point that sustain equals the damage taken.

When sustain is at this 0 mark, a champion is healing as much as they’re being damaged. Notably, when sustain is at the 0 mark and above, it's busted because there's no way to handle it since the champion will not die in combat. This distinction will be important in a moment.

When you weaken damage output, it can go from 300 to say, 200. Weaker but fundamentally not too different. Meanwhile, sustain must be implemented to stay around the negative range. There's our issue. When Sustain is weakened, it can go from 10 to -30, and that’s the difference between "literally not dying" to "explodes in two hits." It essentially changes.

##Where to Balance Sustain

When GW exists, where should Sustain be balanced on this line? If a champion is balanced around the Negative Sustain case, such as -10, then GW brings them to -40 which is the difference between "sort of surviving" to "dead instantly". We could say "just make GW weaker" and suddenly an even worse situation emerges.

If a champion has Positive Sustain, they become unkillable. GW has to bring sustain into the negative range to be effective or else it's pointless (it's worthless to bring sustain from 40 to 10; that's still healing more than is being dealt, and thus still unkillable). If a champion becomes fed enough to stay in the positive range, then there must be a way to bring sustain from positive to negative or else GW is fundamentally failing its job. This means GW has to be extremely binary to function.

Ultimately, champions who rely on moderate sustain to survive, the “balanced” case, are super screwed when GW is around (Aatrox, Trundle, Darius) while champions who rely on immense sustain to survive have to be overtuned to account for GW, and become unbearable if GW isn’t available (Mundo, Soraka). This is part of why Ignite has GW on it, to allow its accessibility in laning matchups.


#Why Grievous Wounds is Prohibitive to Communicate

Before we can understand why Grievous Wounds cannot be easily communicated, we must first understand what it means to communicate an effect.

To communicate an effect is more than words. A player who reads everything will never have trouble with an effect being communicated. Those players are not the target of an effect’s communication. Dwarf Fortress players know what I mean. Instead, to be communicated, an effect must be evident to someone who has not necessarily read it.

Zigg’s bomb hits the ground, and it’s clear that it hits an area of effect. Ignite ticks, and you understand that you are burning to death. Vi uses Vault Breaker, and a huge shield appears in the air and gets sliced in half, signaling destroyed defenses.

Meanwhile, there's no easy way to visually show "You are receiving less healing now". Did you know Katarina's Death Lotus applies it? That Fizz, Tristana, and Miss Fortune used to as well? Most people didn't even know any existed because it's so difficult to communicate.

##Communicated Effects can be Ambiguous, with Restrictions

The closest thing provided is a small heart-slash symbol. The symbol is fairly ambiguous. Is my maximum health lowered? Am I being marked for death by a hunter? Nearly any sliced-heart symbol will encounter similar interpretation issues. But even if the meaning is ambiguous, it would be okay as long a player's intuitive reaction is correct, to a symbol that isn't immediately clear.

Consider Nasus' Spirit Fire. It looks like some cursed zone. What kind of curse does it apply? Hell if I know when I first fought Nasus; what I do know is I gotta scramble! Later, I learned Spirit Fire reduces my armor if I stay in it, and this newfound understanding is in line with what I was intuitively already doing. Ambiguous communication can be fine if the intuitive reaction nearly matches what an understanding-reaction creates.

Sheen makes my enemy’s hand glow. That looks dangerous; I don’t need to know the exact empowerment it provides to know caution should be exerted. I took some damage after walking through Singed’s poison and have this little symbol above me; doesn’t look like it hurts much and they’re low so I’ll try to kill them! (Please don’t)

Compare that to GW. For many people like me, it was not a symbol I noticed easily since GW is most likely to be applied in the middle of combat where it's too hectic to see. Even when if the GW symbol is noticed, the intuitive reaction is unclear. I'm not burning (unless ignited, but that’s the burn I care about, not the GW), I don't think I feel weaker, I didn't hear any kind of scary sound effect telling me to run (Black Cleaver's armor break), and my elo isn’t falling. I guess I'm clear? Should I still fight? What's happening? The intuitive reaction to Grievous Wounds is unclear, and means it is inherently a poorly communicated effect.

And again, a player who just reads everything and sees the GW debuff on the little information bar won't encounter these issues. And again we're not really talking about that kind of player; That player who reads everything would be fine even if GW required them to run around in a circle two times to get rid of a debuff (Hello, Illaoi).

##GW isn't the Only Effect with Communication Problems

Note that Grievous Wounds isn’t the only effect that is poorly communicated. Renekton and Jarvan both have armor shreds on their kits (!) yet there is very little indication of this. The difference with these is that there’s precedence for being able to communicate those effects clearly with some work, as previously established by Vi’s Vault Breaker. No such precedent exists with Grievous Wounds.

Nor is GW the only effect that can’t be communicated. “Use the Joke Emote twice” to remove Buffy the Clown’s ‘have a good laugh or die’ debuff that could never be communicated. An effect that pierces magic immunity and makes you take damage as you run away would become notoriously frustrating for new players, who die and have no clue why, nor has a reliable way to intuitively communicate the effect (Don’t take this as a dig at Dota 2; the game has many unintuitive effects, but is balanced around a higher burden of knowledge. This’s not necessarily bad, and I enjoy playing DotA 2 also, but it’s also not what League’s philosophy has been).


#Why Grievous Wounds Must Exist, and Band-Aids

This binary nature and difficulty of communication from Grievous Wounds feels kind of lazy. I'd rather sustain champions be balanced around having windows of available sustain, never being able to stay in that Positive Window during a teamfight. Unfortunately, champions who do have these windows get screwed over hard by GW (Trundle, Fiora, etc.).

But so long as champions like Mundo and Soraka exist, who play in that limited-window constant Positive Sustain pattern, GW must exist or the sustain will stay above the frustrating “unkillable” range. Riot has been working to put many of those champions into having more windows to play around (compare current Soraka, who must put themselves at risk to heal, versus Soraka of old who could heal infinitely with little risk). This is a great direction to be taking, though arguably isn’t quite enough yet.

##Improving a Grievous Issue

However, just because GW must exist doesn’t mean it can’t be improved upon. We can assign the 0 point (healing as much as damage taken) easily in our hypothetical discussions here, but in a real teamfight, that 0 point is constantly shifting and may vary tremendously from one composition to another. **If the debuff could somehow shift along with that 0 point, it could predominantly punish the High Sustain champs it should without hitting the Moderate Healers nearly as hard. **

For example: A healing debuff that scales over a few seconds (from say, 10% to 60%). Such an effect would predominantly punish High Sustain champions since champion with Moderate Sustain do it during much shorter windows. **It’s fine to be in the +40 zone for a short while, but it becomes problematic when a champion exists in that +40 zone for a large portion of a teamfight. **

Additionally, gating the debuff behind its own window that becomes most effective against High Sustain champions is another option. Morellonomicon is a decent example of this, as it has a condition before allowing its GW debuff to be applied. This incentivizes trying to momentarily hit down High Sustain champions past a certain threshold so that they can be focused down and killed after the initial team burst is used. This isn’t a perfect solution, as it also punishes Moderate Sustain champions fighting tooth and nail during extended confrontations, but it’s still better than a free-for-all punish button.


To answer the question in the title then: Grievous Wounds shouldn’t exist because of its binary nature punishing Moderate Healers and its inherent inability to be communicated, but it must, and while it must there may be alternative ways to implement the mechanic that primarily hits the High-Sustain champions it should be punishing instead of the Moderate Sustain champions.

Thank you for your time!

128 Comments

Annoxis23 votes

Well explained and well detained, your explanation bring some nice insight on the matter.

But you suck at mathematics. GW reduces healing by 40%, which mean that you still keep 60% of that healing. 60% is 0,6 when converted to absolute value. 140 * 0,6 = 84, not 100.

DorkunedAuras5 votes

I think he was just crapping out numbers for example.

Annoxis9 votes

Oh, I know. Doesn't make me wrong, though.

DorkunedAuras4 votes

True enough

Aqua Dragon5 votes

Correct. Also, all healing doesn't get made 66% stronger with the existence of GW. It's put a bit lower than that, so that there's some form of retaliation when GW isn't around.

Troll for Trump2 votes

Problem is it also makes the weak champs with heals even weaker..

Faceroll Tactics5 votes

Aatrox Olaf Vladimir item 3070

Troll for Trump2 votes

Sona Bard

Also, Morellonomicon means bad days for Illaoi :(

Devack The Holy1 votes

Don't know... I think item 3123 item 3033 summoner 14 screw Illaoi more than Morellonomicon does.

Troll for Trump2 votes

Morello's got buffed, and the item, alongside with almost all AP mages that build it(basically all AP champs) have became popular. Brand and Annie are horrible for Illaoi to deal with, as are many mages because they can stay from afar and burst her. Illaoi can beat them at close proximity but actually getting in close proximity is harder.

Blue Moon Wolf2 votes

I don't know about Vlad since his update (haven't seen him much), plus he's getting buffs in the next patch, but definitely Aatrox.

Faceroll Tactics4 votes

I'm a 40k mastery points Vladimir main, I've seen his power dip since his rework, which is sad because he was pretty garbage before the rework too.

Hello I am Bird3 votes

lol none of those champs build tear noob

######Please don't make me say Kappa

Faceroll Tactics3 votes

I saw your reply on my notifications tab and I was about to make the biggest sigh of my life until I saw the bottom part

P.S. Tear on Olaf is op with the changes you refund more mana when you catch an axe than you spend throwing it.

P.S.S That was a joke please do not try tear on Olaf

Teridax6810 votes

This is the kind of thread that should be at the top of Gameplay. Thank you so much for such a well-written and well-argumented post.

I agree with a lot of this, and I think Grievous Wounds is a necessary evil that eventually needs to disappear once all sustain in the game gets gated appropriately. I personally think Soraka's core design is functional enough that her healing could be made healthy and manageable purely through balance changes (e.g. less early healing, higher personal health costs, etc.), but Mundo and Swain are definitely still the two biggest culprits for poorly gated sustain in the game.

Considering both of those champions are pretty tanky, and therefore resistant to most kinds of burst, making Morellonomicon's GW application conditional upon going below 40% max health might not be the best implementation. As you mentioned, GW in those two cases is also about creating a window of opportunity where they won't be able to outheal the damage you deal, rather than disabling a huge part of their utility over the entire course of a fight, and the active you mentioned used to exist in a slightly different form on a very, very old version of Executioner's Calling, which had a kind of pseudo-Ignite active. I'm not quite sure how to change GW in such a way that it would especially affect tanky champions with high continuous sustain (plus maybe Soraka), and considering that Swain's slated for a full VGU at some point, with Mundo hopefully likely to get changed as well in the Diver update, perhaps we might be able to see properly gated sustain across the board before needing to come up with a solution to a mechanic that is inherently poorly designed.

cocacolalips7 votes

On the same note, Executioners Calling is fine because it's a situational item that you only build as a counter to the heavy sustain champions and Morellonomicon isn't fine because with the last patch it has become the first item every mage buys regardless of what champions they face, and it screws everyone over, notably the champions with little to moderate sustain.

Aqua Dragon9 votes

I still have issue with Executioner's current implementation but the Morello point is very fair and notably problematic. It's one thing if it's built for the GW, and another when it's just a bonus from what you were wanting. Making GW more available, without trade off, feels bad.

ModAcademy Kayn4 votes

Just a note, people seem to complain about AD champs getting that Lifesteal and becoming hard to get out of lane. By having Morelleo be a bit more bought, doesn't that mean something? Or am I under/overthinking it?

Aqua Dragon2 votes

Depends what you mean by "mean something." I think it means that some of the Low Sustain champions will also lose part of their defensive power (lifesteal), though I feel this isn't as relevant as Moderate Sustainers who are almost wholly dependent on it to survive in combat.

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

I guess by "Mean something", it'd go towards ADC's or Fighers who love Lifesteal, or have ways of gaining life back quickly Aatrox MasterYi XinZhao Fiora Trundle (maybe not him, but idk).

I can easily see how that idea can change against people like Vlad, Swain, WW and maybe Aatrox too (Idk bout him), but it does seem like a benefit to have against most fighters or Lifestealing ADC's, if you get them low enough to a point, that they're "crippled" for a small bit, hence the name Grevious Wounds.

Think of it also as a way against adc's who are stacking things like Steraks and Maw. Even if you don't kill them with a burst, you may have gotten them low enough to proc the Grevious Wounds to slightly cripple their recovery time and dueling potential should someone get in an ADC's face.

Aqua Dragon2 votes

I feel they generally are in a healthier spot because their sustain is gated by a window (range). This allows for some degree of outplaying, where things only become an issue if their range stops being an issue.

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

"They" being Fighters, correct?

Aqua Dragon2 votes

Correct; apologies for the ambiguity.

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

Nah, I love playing the Pronoun game.

Drackolus3 votes

While I agree that it's an issue, it's not a new one. Previously, everyone bought Morellonomicon because it was a cheaper 1:1 clone of Athene's. The only thing that's different is that they removed the option nobody was taking anyway. It's still grievous wounds on an item bought not for grievous wounds. I think a similar route to Last Whisper, with two similar options building out of a base. Two items that have the 20% cdr, some mana, and some ap, but one with grievous wounds and the other with a different effect. Two items that the same champion can choose between, rather than an illusion of choice caused by the stats being inherently better for said champion regardless of enemy comp.

Yaskamasandwich4 votes

Upvote for the sole reason of this is what gameplay posts should be. Even if numbers are being shot out, it is still constructed well and has valid points. Not. Every other secondly post of hurr durr buu dynamic qur yaryyy fer solo qur!!!

LuxannaVeritas3 votes

I like these long posts, well done and thank you!

To be honest, Soraka is one of the champions that I main, so I cried on the inside when I saw the Soraka nerfs and the Grevious Wound changes. Luckily I can still win with her though. :)

SpaceCaptViral3 votes

Your argument can be used for the QSS changes too. On that same topic, I wonder how does it feel to be a Zed main right now lmao.

MEMEME6703 votes

when sustain is at the 0 mark and above, it's busted because there's no way to handle it since the champion will not die in combat.

This isn't correct. It relies on another assumption that you haven't outlined, and which the knowledge of allows insight into further possible solutions.

Those other assumptions are that the character being healed also has to have the ability to do something meaningful. This seems obvious, what champion doesn't have the ability to 'do something meaningful' but consider this.

When Soraka is left alone (or seperated from the teamfight with her ult down), she could suddenly glitch out and have her Q heal her for literally 5 times her health bar, but unless she can reach her team, she's worthless. She won't provide any value to her team seperated, even with her healing at +200.

The same can be said for lets say, a Support Trundle who can heal forever, but built full tank going all the way into 6 item lategame. He's just going to have the enemy team completely ignore him, step around him, and it doesn't matter how good his healing is, once his ult//pillar are down he's not going to provide very much to his team.

Following this, a possible solution is to create a situation where players have to outplay their opponents in order to be able to heal who they want to, or something. I'm tired and I can't think of an easy way to make something up, but I'm sure you understand.

Mogarl2 votes

I remember once, long ago, that Meddler said they were going to remove grievous wounds and balance champions around its absence. That was around 2 seasons ago though and you'd think if they were going to do it they would have done it by now.

Atanchan3 votes

It's likely that this is still a goal, it's just that when they tried back then they realized it was a much, much larger project than they initially realized and it got shoved behind a bunch of other projects, and potentially has been buried under newer ones as well.

They sort of did it when they removed the ally-healing portion of GWs, but then they realized that the current landscape didn't allow for that so they put the progress back on the backburner again.

morris12 votes

Oh my, Aqua Dragon. Your first two words on the post literally made me realize that the Ocean Dragon's broken heal is reduced by GW. YOU ARE A GENIUS. HOW DID YOU REALISE THIS.

Aqua Dragon3 votes

Maybe this is why I'm advocating for it's removal...

..........item 3078 item 3078 item 3348item 3078

50000000000000003 votes

summoner 13

Jet Sett2 votes

J4 HAS ARMOR SHRED!? Also, good post, I expect nothing less from the guy who made me jungle Malz pre-rework.

Aqua Dragon1 votes

RIGHT?! It was such a shock to me when I found out!

Thank you! :)

Jet Sett2 votes

I was just thinking, does it amaze you how much you possibly have influenced the Malz rework? Not the op part, just the fact that he is an incredible jungler even more than before and that it's likely because of you his passive and W were changed.

Aqua Dragon2 votes

I think it's a little tough for me to know how much I even influenced it. Repertoir was intent on balancing the AD Jungle build with it in the first place, so I'm not totally sure if I influenced the direction too much or even still do. Still, I'm super glad they've been very receptive!

Jet Sett2 votes

I feel you influenced it a good bit, your AD Malz jungle guide was the reason I tried it in the first place, and I'm sure your streams also brought attention to how effective this unique playstyle really is! On a somewhat related note, do you plan on creating more guides on Mobafire/updating any ones that might be outdated due to reworks or new items?

Requiemsfire2 votes

I agree that grevous wounds should be changed or altered as a mechanic or perhaps even divided into smaller components. It's tricky though because we have champions who are focused entirely around sustain, DrMundo Vladimir Aatrox Swain

Then we have items like item 3083 item 3812 item 3072 item 3074 item 3153 item 3146 which offer powerful sustain

Life steal and spell vamp in particular offer a lot of fighters like Yasuo Fiora MasterYi Jax XinZhao because not only do they gain a lot of sustain but they gain sustain through building damage something of which they excel at on top of the Warlords bloodlust.

On top of all that we have item 3065 which grants some tankiness and enhances all self healing along with CDR. To change grevous wounds probably might even more an entire item revamp with items meant to grant heavy amounts of sustain.

For the purpose of discussion I feel that we should put each sustaining champion into their own category of sustain.

Self health regenDrMundo Garen Zac Irelia XinZhao Heimerdinger Nunu

Item dependent sustain Yasuo Mordekaiser Jax Yasuo MasterYi Draven Ashe Varus Aatrox (You could literally list almost every champion in this category)

Life steal sustain Vladimir Aatrox Morgana Nasus Ryze

Support sustain: Soraka Taric Alistar Kayle Janna Bard Sona

Just examples, of course I think sustain in this game is a bit overboard with how it's been emphasized on especially in itemization.

DarthSpectrum2 votes

I think your explanation is pretty spot on. Grievous Wounds is a necessity in this game due to Soraka and Mundo. Without this mechanic, health regenerating abilities would need to be significantly weaker so champions like Mundo doesn't end up with more health at the end of a team fight.

However, I do not think that GW is lacking because Riot has implemented reasonable trade offs to use this mechanic. In order to get GW, ADCs must either give up roughly 15% of their damage from Lord Dominik's Regards, or champions must take ignite. The only champions that can get GW with no significant disadvantages are the mages. Morello is a solid item in most situations, but as you mentioned in your post, it has a conditional effect that allows for some breathing room for sustain champions.

Generally, players have to sacrifice something to get GW. Players would only choose Executioner's Calling over Giant Slayer if the enemy team has a champions like Soraka. Likewise, a support might opt for ignite instead of exhaust to counter healing in team fights. I understand your concern that GW might be too effective on champions such as Fiora or WW is not unjustified, but I don't think you need to worry about them. Most players won't get GW specifically for them because their healing isn't strong enough to warrant the 15% loss in damage or the ability to shut down an enemy carry's damage output for 2 seconds.

In my opinion the only problematic sustain champions are Mundo and Soraka (Trundle might be added on the list as well since QSS can't drop his ultimate anymore). Champions like Fiora, WW, and Aatrox aren't that big of an issue because you can deny them sustain by kiting their damage. Raka's and Mundo's health regeneration abilities should be altered to conform to GW, not the other way around. When they are ahead, they can out regen the amount of damage dealt to them, but when they are behind, they get blown up instantly. I would rather Riot implement a system that decides between a flat base value and a % health value to prevent sustain from either being irrelevant of overbearing. But that's just my two cents.

Athenes Lulu2 votes

I'm thinking of a "decreased heal for x seconds, and cannot happen again until y seconds has passed", rather than "decreased heals for as long as the spells permit".

Windspeaker's give bonus armor and MR, but only lasts for a certain amount of time, often shorter than the shield's duration. Thunderlord's Decree can be proced every so often so people have a brief window to breathe and do something about it. "Possibly overbearing" things like these have a set limit for a good reason, it gives people opportunities to find ways to work around other than winning/losing solely because of stat-checking.

Speaking of stat-checking, that's what building and not building GW does. You don't build it, sustain wins because they have better numbers than you do, and that is sustain. You build it, these sustain guys are pretty much "trashed" in terms of trying to work around. We can go on about the removal of global passives, permanent auras (hello Sona), and the like, because things that rely just on stat-checking, in a PvP situation, is no fun. There is no interaction other than binary results.

That's where the "limited debuffs" came to mind. Ignite isn't as bad as GW items in general because it only lasts for a given amount of time. Heck, even GW applied by champion abilities are only slightly better because they last a given amount of time. But with items, rotations of spells/autoattacks, that's where the certain limit is gone; that's nearly the equivalent of stat-checking. Decreasing healing is great, but what if people just spam consistently to the point where GW resets indefinitely?

Just dropping in some thoughts. Making GW apply for a set given amount of time, and can't apply again for a few seconds also gives a better reason to make GW more accessible through items.

Aqua Dragon2 votes

I like the direction. A similar idea someone suggested was the power to reduce maximum health temporarily. This means if a sustain champion has been brought especially low, their maximum health (not current health) will not be able to regenerate as high. Having it used after an initial burst makes the remaining health more manageable. Whether the sustain could still survive despite having a cripple maximum health would be an implementation issue, but I feel it's in a very similar vein as your suggestion.

Athenes Lulu2 votes

Reducing max HP targets more on specific champions, and not healing in general. It's a great debuff in general (if I can make things "grow" why not have others shrink stuff?), but if we're going to talk about dealing with healing issues, that's not going to do much. Champs with heals that don't involve % max HP will still be a problem (looking at you, Nidalee).

Other than reworking GW alone (such as limited durations), I'm also thinking of an item component specifically designed to deal with GW in general. It's great for laners who have trouble going against sustain matchups, ADCs who can't finish Mortal Reminder on time but needs GW as soon as possible, or even supports who couldn't afford Morello's (as a Lulu support main I sometimes DO find myself building GW and it did helped my team a lot) and needs a little bit of extra utility because I hate dealing with healers. The component item can have a very weak GW effect, where heals are reduced by something like ~25%, and can either work like Tiamat (where you have to activate the active for it to work), or a tiny limited GW debuff upon ANY spell.

Then it has several items that can be built into: Morello's, Mortal Reminder, and an item that has the single-target debuff active (which is going to be a new item). For the new item, it could be a support item (low cost yet caster support-friendly stats, like the kinds of things Ardent Censer has), with an active where it flat-out debuffs the enemy with 70% reduced received healing, 35% reduced self healing (we don't want to fuck over Mundo singlehandedly because of this), and maybe more weak debuffs if GW alone is too underwhelming. For CD on that active, somewhere around 90 seconds is pretty fair. As for the passive, it can retain the weak 25% reduced heal debuff that the component item has (though would not stack with any other GW debuffs). In short, it's like exhaust but aimed for GW purposes, where players need to time it right to make the most out of things.

Just a super duper rough idea, but something like that COULD be implemented since dealing with healing is a pretty common issue.

Old Man Teeto2 votes

Grievous wounds exists so that champions can feel powerful, while still being manageable.

In the absence of Grievous wounds, you have to remove a lot of power from those abilities and it feels shitty to then use them even if they're balanced.

Since most sustain can be used when you're not fighting, as well as when you're fighting, they get increased uptime usage. Typically this is gated by either CD's or mana cost. However, League doesn't like champions being OOM constantly, so by 20~ minutes the mana cost restriction tends to disappear. Additionally, spells with 15+ second CD's tend to not FEEL POWERFUL if they're just healing.


This in lies the overall problem.

A champion with their sole function revolving around healing, is inherently terribly designed, particularly when they cover all facets of healing.

  1. Sustained Healing --- essentially healing per second, strong enough to equal that of a sustained damage character. Typically done with Heal of Times
  2. Burst Healing --- Huge instant heals, typically with longer CD's, that give immediate health.

Mundo is the perfect example of Sustained Healing, both his passive and ultimate give amazing sustain, but he is vulnerable to concentrated burst that circumvents his personal healing.

Nidalee is the best example of Burst Healing we have, as the base and ratio are quite high and the CD is quite long.


This is where Soraka comes into picture.

Soraka USED to be a burst healer, however her high base heal (200 at level 5) and short CD (2 seconds) gave her great sustained healing power while fully maintaining her strong burst healing.

Before, casting her heal every 15~ seconds felt terrible, despite it being a strong sustain tool, and left you doing almost nothing in fights of value (spamming Q for MR shred? lol wut?) So they changed her to emphasize using W a lot and using her Q for personal sustain.

They even realized part of her sustain needed to be more gradual by moving some of the base and AP ratio of her W into a HoT that she has to get from landing Q and then pass on with W.

The problem is that Soraka Can't FEEL powerful and be FAIR TO FIGHT in her current form. Grievous Wounds has to exist so long as Soraka exists.

CaptnJakSparrow2 votes

I'm still watching Soraka over heal damage through Grievous Wounds.

I'd also argue that the only reason her winrate is falling is because she was so strong a little while ago that anyone playing her with any runes/masteries could win the game with her.

Now that that's not the case, people are starting to lose more. But, once people figure out runes/masteries/when and when not to beat your face on the W key blah blah bah, her win rate will shoot right back up to around 60+% like it was before anyone noticed how strong she is.

KANYE OBAMA GOD2 votes

Very informative post! I love all posts like these, the good side of gameplay boards. Also, I loved your little quips that you had scattered throughout it lol

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aqua Dragon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lOGiX2PJ,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-05-09T09:15:00.055+0000)

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I disagree with everything you said minus the part where grievous wounds is not easy to see in combat. That much is true.

But sustain is binary? Grievous wounds is binary? Come on man. Following that train of thought, damage is binary because you either have enough damage to kill them or not. Defense is binary because you either have enough hp/armor/mr to survive or not. Cooldown reduction is binary because you either have your cooldowns down just in time or don't.

What you're detailing and arguing can be said for every statistic in the game.

In fact, greivous wounds is not nearly as binary as you proposed. Grievous wounds effectively ups your damage to a champion by 40% of their healing. So if mundo regens 70% of his hp with his ult, you effectively deal 28% of his hp as damage to him by applying grievous wounds to him.

Honestly, I feel like you just resent greivous wounds, but don't know how sustain would be balanced without it. Do note that literally the only change to grievous wounds is that it now also applies to Soraka, Nami, Nidalee, Sona, Janna, and perhaps a few others when they use spells to heal people.

If grievous wounds was really so problematic, this is a discussion that should have happened long ago, not just after a few more champions were added to the "hurt by greivous wounds" bunch.

Eevee In A Jar2 votes

I'm not sure. he brings some fair points. Existence of GW makes champs like Soraka a bad pick almost every game. The other champs you mentioned that HAS heal in their kit; you don't choose those champs ONLY for the heal otherwise you wouldn't pick Nami/Nid/Sona?janna at all. You'd only pick Soraka. Sona has pretty weak heals and Nami has decent heals but most players don't only pick Nami because "Oh I can infinitely heal." Nami may have heal in her kit but her kit revolves around controlling the pace of the game by enhancing your ADC's strengths. No one picks Nidalee because of her heal. I'm pretty sure no one picks Janna because of heals either but more for the disengage part of her ult.

Soraka is the only champ you pick where you think "I'm going to heal the hell out of my teammates!" GW completely shuts down champs that has their ENTIRE KIT revolve around sustain. Your arguing point on whether damage is binary or not by saying you either have enough or not is just making something black and white and 2 dimensional when it isn't. GW on the other hand IS binary because you simply only have it or you don't. And when you have it, you effectively shut down sustain champs and when you don't they're allowed to roam as their kit has intended for them to be.

We already have suitable counterplay against Soraka prior to GW. I know you say if GW was so problematic before, why hasn't it been resolved by now at the 6th season? Well I can say if feast or famine effectively balanced assassin's and early game powerhouses, why did they remove it? And why bring up assassins? Because again assassin's are untouched. Think about players who main sustain champs like Soraka. GW does kind of screw them over unfairly. When you pick a certain champio no matter what role or where in point in their game they become strong, have counterplays against them and you are punished for making wrong decisions. Except for assassins. if you pick assassins every game, not assassinate and play safe you should not scale. Prior to this F&F removal, assassins needed to snowball off kills; it was REALLY hard to farm in lane especially when opposing laner pushed wave. Also meant you couldn't roam. This would offset the fact of how easy it would be for an assassin to simply press one button to all in you and kill you in a few seconds (specifically only Zed really).

TBH I never believed GW to be a problem. I never really played much sustain champs and I DID play a lot of Nami but no one builds GW just for Nami's heals at least not that I've ever seen. After reading the OP's post though I'm somewhat convinced that GW really isn't necessarily. I mean instead of putting GW in, you could just nerf the sustain ratios couldn't you? And it's not like Soraka is OP or anything.

Partholonian2 votes

{quoted}

Think about players who main sustain champs like Soraka. GW does kind of screw them over unfairly.

Only because it has no cost. Look at the LW rework -- old LW used to screw over tanks unfairly, because any physical damage dealer got it automatically, it was good against everything, and tanks just stopped being tanky whether you made any effort to counterbuild them or not. New LW is something you have to build INSTEAD OF another item that would do something else for you. Even if you are blowing up tanks with it, it still comes at some cost; you have less waveclear or lifesteal or raw damage to squishies or SOMETHING that you would have bought with that gold that went into Dominik's/Mortal Reminder.

Similarly, new EC is something you have to CHOOSE to build, and in the process, pay good gold for inferior stats (aside from the GW).

Ignite has some tradeoff costs -- you could have had TP or exhaust. But barrier is nerfed to shit and few people want it, and heal is often useless for solo laners, so there are often few alternatives -- and most people who take ignite take it for the bonus true damage to facilitate 100-0s anyway, they're just getting GW as a side effect.

Morellonomicon, on the other hand -- buy it for the stats, invalidate Soraka for free. That's the real abuse case of GW; it needs to be taken off a very widely useful item and placed on its own niche item that's a parallel to Mortal Reminder. Then, just by forcing them to build that, you are doing something useful for your team, even if you're not personally unkillable anymore.

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