Grievous Wounds is Reverted, Soraka is Slain, but Should it Exist? - A Nuanced Look

Aqua Dragon·5/9/2016, 9:15:00 AM·132 votes·11,404 views

Aqua Dragon here; One of the undernoted aspects of the 6.9 Patch was the reverting of Grievous Wounds to work with all healing instead of just self healing.

Additionally, The Grievous Wounds application from Morello was changed to last longer, but is harder to apply

For those unaware, Grievous Wounds is a debuff that reduces healing by 40%. It exists on Ignite and is applied by Executioner's Calling and Morellonomicon. This change hits heavy sustain champions pretty hard. Notably, everyone who hates Soraka rejoiced. Coupled with the nerfs, Soraka’s winrate has fallen to a more manageable level. League of Legends became a perfect game and nobody complained about balance ever again.

But underlying this victory is a much broader question about what place Grievous Wounds has in the game. I will outline why Grievous Wounds must be problematically binary, then why it’s inherently difficult to communicate, and finally why it must exist, while noting some potential directions it could take.


#Why Grievous Wound is Binary, and Must Be

GW serves as a hard counter to heavy sustain compositions. It seems to do the job fine, despite being a fairly heavy-handed, but it puts sustain champions into a super binary situation where all sustain has to be based around the existence of GW, or risk have the healing put into irrelevancy

As an example, healing that’s ‘supposed’ to do 100 must actually do 140 instead. But then, whenever GW isn’t available, this “overtuned” healing becomes absolutely overbearing to play against (Mundo, Soraka). Worse, it means any champion who is balanced around Moderate healing to survive becomes extremely crippled, as one of their only defensive mechanisms is an enormous 40% less effective (Trundle).

##Why Weakening Sustain is Not the Same as Weakening Damage

Exhaust might appear to do something similar initially, but sustain is fundamentally different from damage. Weaker damage can make things poor briefly, but the user can still contribute. Phrased another way, Damage goes from 0 to 100, where 0 is no damage and 100 is Annie. But sustain, by nature, doesn’t exist on that spectrum. Instead, Sustain exists from -50 to 50, where 0 is the point that sustain equals the damage taken.

When sustain is at this 0 mark, a champion is healing as much as they’re being damaged. Notably, when sustain is at the 0 mark and above, it's busted because there's no way to handle it since the champion will not die in combat. This distinction will be important in a moment.

When you weaken damage output, it can go from 300 to say, 200. Weaker but fundamentally not too different. Meanwhile, sustain must be implemented to stay around the negative range. There's our issue. When Sustain is weakened, it can go from 10 to -30, and that’s the difference between "literally not dying" to "explodes in two hits." It essentially changes.

##Where to Balance Sustain

When GW exists, where should Sustain be balanced on this line? If a champion is balanced around the Negative Sustain case, such as -10, then GW brings them to -40 which is the difference between "sort of surviving" to "dead instantly". We could say "just make GW weaker" and suddenly an even worse situation emerges.

If a champion has Positive Sustain, they become unkillable. GW has to bring sustain into the negative range to be effective or else it's pointless (it's worthless to bring sustain from 40 to 10; that's still healing more than is being dealt, and thus still unkillable). If a champion becomes fed enough to stay in the positive range, then there must be a way to bring sustain from positive to negative or else GW is fundamentally failing its job. This means GW has to be extremely binary to function.

Ultimately, champions who rely on moderate sustain to survive, the “balanced” case, are super screwed when GW is around (Aatrox, Trundle, Darius) while champions who rely on immense sustain to survive have to be overtuned to account for GW, and become unbearable if GW isn’t available (Mundo, Soraka). This is part of why Ignite has GW on it, to allow its accessibility in laning matchups.


#Why Grievous Wounds is Prohibitive to Communicate

Before we can understand why Grievous Wounds cannot be easily communicated, we must first understand what it means to communicate an effect.

To communicate an effect is more than words. A player who reads everything will never have trouble with an effect being communicated. Those players are not the target of an effect’s communication. Dwarf Fortress players know what I mean. Instead, to be communicated, an effect must be evident to someone who has not necessarily read it.

Zigg’s bomb hits the ground, and it’s clear that it hits an area of effect. Ignite ticks, and you understand that you are burning to death. Vi uses Vault Breaker, and a huge shield appears in the air and gets sliced in half, signaling destroyed defenses.

Meanwhile, there's no easy way to visually show "You are receiving less healing now". Did you know Katarina's Death Lotus applies it? That Fizz, Tristana, and Miss Fortune used to as well? Most people didn't even know any existed because it's so difficult to communicate.

##Communicated Effects can be Ambiguous, with Restrictions

The closest thing provided is a small heart-slash symbol. The symbol is fairly ambiguous. Is my maximum health lowered? Am I being marked for death by a hunter? Nearly any sliced-heart symbol will encounter similar interpretation issues. But even if the meaning is ambiguous, it would be okay as long a player's intuitive reaction is correct, to a symbol that isn't immediately clear.

Consider Nasus' Spirit Fire. It looks like some cursed zone. What kind of curse does it apply? Hell if I know when I first fought Nasus; what I do know is I gotta scramble! Later, I learned Spirit Fire reduces my armor if I stay in it, and this newfound understanding is in line with what I was intuitively already doing. Ambiguous communication can be fine if the intuitive reaction nearly matches what an understanding-reaction creates.

Sheen makes my enemy’s hand glow. That looks dangerous; I don’t need to know the exact empowerment it provides to know caution should be exerted. I took some damage after walking through Singed’s poison and have this little symbol above me; doesn’t look like it hurts much and they’re low so I’ll try to kill them! (Please don’t)

Compare that to GW. For many people like me, it was not a symbol I noticed easily since GW is most likely to be applied in the middle of combat where it's too hectic to see. Even when if the GW symbol is noticed, the intuitive reaction is unclear. I'm not burning (unless ignited, but that’s the burn I care about, not the GW), I don't think I feel weaker, I didn't hear any kind of scary sound effect telling me to run (Black Cleaver's armor break), and my elo isn’t falling. I guess I'm clear? Should I still fight? What's happening? The intuitive reaction to Grievous Wounds is unclear, and means it is inherently a poorly communicated effect.

And again, a player who just reads everything and sees the GW debuff on the little information bar won't encounter these issues. And again we're not really talking about that kind of player; That player who reads everything would be fine even if GW required them to run around in a circle two times to get rid of a debuff (Hello, Illaoi).

##GW isn't the Only Effect with Communication Problems

Note that Grievous Wounds isn’t the only effect that is poorly communicated. Renekton and Jarvan both have armor shreds on their kits (!) yet there is very little indication of this. The difference with these is that there’s precedence for being able to communicate those effects clearly with some work, as previously established by Vi’s Vault Breaker. No such precedent exists with Grievous Wounds.

Nor is GW the only effect that can’t be communicated. “Use the Joke Emote twice” to remove Buffy the Clown’s ‘have a good laugh or die’ debuff that could never be communicated. An effect that pierces magic immunity and makes you take damage as you run away would become notoriously frustrating for new players, who die and have no clue why, nor has a reliable way to intuitively communicate the effect (Don’t take this as a dig at Dota 2; the game has many unintuitive effects, but is balanced around a higher burden of knowledge. This’s not necessarily bad, and I enjoy playing DotA 2 also, but it’s also not what League’s philosophy has been).


#Why Grievous Wounds Must Exist, and Band-Aids

This binary nature and difficulty of communication from Grievous Wounds feels kind of lazy. I'd rather sustain champions be balanced around having windows of available sustain, never being able to stay in that Positive Window during a teamfight. Unfortunately, champions who do have these windows get screwed over hard by GW (Trundle, Fiora, etc.).

But so long as champions like Mundo and Soraka exist, who play in that limited-window constant Positive Sustain pattern, GW must exist or the sustain will stay above the frustrating “unkillable” range. Riot has been working to put many of those champions into having more windows to play around (compare current Soraka, who must put themselves at risk to heal, versus Soraka of old who could heal infinitely with little risk). This is a great direction to be taking, though arguably isn’t quite enough yet.

##Improving a Grievous Issue

However, just because GW must exist doesn’t mean it can’t be improved upon. We can assign the 0 point (healing as much as damage taken) easily in our hypothetical discussions here, but in a real teamfight, that 0 point is constantly shifting and may vary tremendously from one composition to another. **If the debuff could somehow shift along with that 0 point, it could predominantly punish the High Sustain champs it should without hitting the Moderate Healers nearly as hard. **

For example: A healing debuff that scales over a few seconds (from say, 10% to 60%). Such an effect would predominantly punish High Sustain champions since champion with Moderate Sustain do it during much shorter windows. **It’s fine to be in the +40 zone for a short while, but it becomes problematic when a champion exists in that +40 zone for a large portion of a teamfight. **

Additionally, gating the debuff behind its own window that becomes most effective against High Sustain champions is another option. Morellonomicon is a decent example of this, as it has a condition before allowing its GW debuff to be applied. This incentivizes trying to momentarily hit down High Sustain champions past a certain threshold so that they can be focused down and killed after the initial team burst is used. This isn’t a perfect solution, as it also punishes Moderate Sustain champions fighting tooth and nail during extended confrontations, but it’s still better than a free-for-all punish button.


To answer the question in the title then: Grievous Wounds shouldn’t exist because of its binary nature punishing Moderate Healers and its inherent inability to be communicated, but it must, and while it must there may be alternative ways to implement the mechanic that primarily hits the High-Sustain champions it should be punishing instead of the Moderate Sustain champions.

Thank you for your time!

128 Comments

Annoxis5/9/2016, 11:40:07 AM23 votes

Well explained and well detained, your explanation bring some nice insight on the matter.

But you suck at mathematics. GW reduces healing by 40%, which mean that you still keep 60% of that healing. 60% is 0,6 when converted to absolute value. 140 * 0,6 = 84, not 100.

Teridax685/9/2016, 10:08:25 AM10 votes

This is the kind of thread that should be at the top of Gameplay. Thank you so much for such a well-written and well-argumented post.

I agree with a lot of this, and I think Grievous Wounds is a necessary evil that eventually needs to disappear once all sustain in the game gets gated appropriately. I personally think Soraka's core design is functional enough that her healing could be made healthy and manageable purely through balance changes (e.g. less early healing, higher personal health costs, etc.), but Mundo and Swain are definitely still the two biggest culprits for poorly gated sustain in the game.

Considering both of those champions are pretty tanky, and therefore resistant to most kinds of burst, making Morellonomicon's GW application conditional upon going below 40% max health might not be the best implementation. As you mentioned, GW in those two cases is also about creating a window of opportunity where they won't be able to outheal the damage you deal, rather than disabling a huge part of their utility over the entire course of a fight, and the active you mentioned used to exist in a slightly different form on a very, very old version of Executioner's Calling, which had a kind of pseudo-Ignite active. I'm not quite sure how to change GW in such a way that it would especially affect tanky champions with high continuous sustain (plus maybe Soraka), and considering that Swain's slated for a full VGU at some point, with Mundo hopefully likely to get changed as well in the Diver update, perhaps we might be able to see properly gated sustain across the board before needing to come up with a solution to a mechanic that is inherently poorly designed.

cocacolalips5/9/2016, 1:55:41 PM7 votes

On the same note, Executioners Calling is fine because it's a situational item that you only build as a counter to the heavy sustain champions and Morellonomicon isn't fine because with the last patch it has become the first item every mage buys regardless of what champions they face, and it screws everyone over, notably the champions with little to moderate sustain.

Yaskamasandwich5/9/2016, 4:51:30 PM4 votes

Upvote for the sole reason of this is what gameplay posts should be. Even if numbers are being shot out, it is still constructed well and has valid points. Not. Every other secondly post of hurr durr buu dynamic qur yaryyy fer solo qur!!!

MEMEME6705/10/2016, 6:55:57 AM3 votes

when sustain is at the 0 mark and above, it's busted because there's no way to handle it since the champion will not die in combat.

This isn't correct. It relies on another assumption that you haven't outlined, and which the knowledge of allows insight into further possible solutions.

Those other assumptions are that the character being healed also has to have the ability to do something meaningful. This seems obvious, what champion doesn't have the ability to 'do something meaningful' but consider this.

When Soraka is left alone (or seperated from the teamfight with her ult down), she could suddenly glitch out and have her Q heal her for literally 5 times her health bar, but unless she can reach her team, she's worthless. She won't provide any value to her team seperated, even with her healing at +200.

The same can be said for lets say, a Support Trundle who can heal forever, but built full tank going all the way into 6 item lategame. He's just going to have the enemy team completely ignore him, step around him, and it doesn't matter how good his healing is, once his ult//pillar are down he's not going to provide very much to his team.

Following this, a possible solution is to create a situation where players have to outplay their opponents in order to be able to heal who they want to, or something. I'm tired and I can't think of an easy way to make something up, but I'm sure you understand.

SpaceCaptViral5/10/2016, 5:19:21 AM3 votes

Your argument can be used for the QSS changes too. On that same topic, I wonder how does it feel to be a Zed main right now lmao.

LuxannaVeritas5/10/2016, 3:26:08 AM3 votes

I like these long posts, well done and thank you!

To be honest, Soraka is one of the champions that I main, so I cried on the inside when I saw the Soraka nerfs and the Grevious Wound changes. Luckily I can still win with her though. :)

Old Man Teeto5/10/2016, 11:35:25 PM2 votes

Grievous wounds exists so that champions can feel powerful, while still being manageable.

In the absence of Grievous wounds, you have to remove a lot of power from those abilities and it feels shitty to then use them even if they're balanced.

Since most sustain can be used when you're not fighting, as well as when you're fighting, they get increased uptime usage. Typically this is gated by either CD's or mana cost. However, League doesn't like champions being OOM constantly, so by 20~ minutes the mana cost restriction tends to disappear. Additionally, spells with 15+ second CD's tend to not FEEL POWERFUL if they're just healing.


This in lies the overall problem.

A champion with their sole function revolving around healing, is inherently terribly designed, particularly when they cover all facets of healing.

  1. Sustained Healing --- essentially healing per second, strong enough to equal that of a sustained damage character. Typically done with Heal of Times
  2. Burst Healing --- Huge instant heals, typically with longer CD's, that give immediate health.

Mundo is the perfect example of Sustained Healing, both his passive and ultimate give amazing sustain, but he is vulnerable to concentrated burst that circumvents his personal healing.

Nidalee is the best example of Burst Healing we have, as the base and ratio are quite high and the CD is quite long.


This is where Soraka comes into picture.

Soraka USED to be a burst healer, however her high base heal (200 at level 5) and short CD (2 seconds) gave her great sustained healing power while fully maintaining her strong burst healing.

Before, casting her heal every 15~ seconds felt terrible, despite it being a strong sustain tool, and left you doing almost nothing in fights of value (spamming Q for MR shred? lol wut?) So they changed her to emphasize using W a lot and using her Q for personal sustain.

They even realized part of her sustain needed to be more gradual by moving some of the base and AP ratio of her W into a HoT that she has to get from landing Q and then pass on with W.

The problem is that Soraka Can't FEEL powerful and be FAIR TO FIGHT in her current form. Grievous Wounds has to exist so long as Soraka exists.

CaptnJakSparrow5/11/2016, 12:20:01 AM2 votes

I'm still watching Soraka over heal damage through Grievous Wounds.

I'd also argue that the only reason her winrate is falling is because she was so strong a little while ago that anyone playing her with any runes/masteries could win the game with her.

Now that that's not the case, people are starting to lose more. But, once people figure out runes/masteries/when and when not to beat your face on the W key blah blah bah, her win rate will shoot right back up to around 60+% like it was before anyone noticed how strong she is.

KANYE OBAMA GOD5/11/2016, 1:28:17 AM2 votes

Very informative post! I love all posts like these, the good side of gameplay boards. Also, I loved your little quips that you had scattered throughout it lol

Mogarl5/9/2016, 3:43:32 PM2 votes

I remember once, long ago, that Meddler said they were going to remove grievous wounds and balance champions around its absence. That was around 2 seasons ago though and you'd think if they were going to do it they would have done it by now.

morris15/9/2016, 5:00:23 PM2 votes

Oh my, Aqua Dragon. Your first two words on the post literally made me realize that the Ocean Dragon's broken heal is reduced by GW. YOU ARE A GENIUS. HOW DID YOU REALISE THIS.

Jet Sett5/9/2016, 6:24:13 PM2 votes

J4 HAS ARMOR SHRED!? Also, good post, I expect nothing less from the guy who made me jungle Malz pre-rework.

Requiemsfire5/9/2016, 7:54:15 PM2 votes

I agree that grevous wounds should be changed or altered as a mechanic or perhaps even divided into smaller components. It's tricky though because we have champions who are focused entirely around sustain, DrMundo Vladimir Aatrox Swain

Then we have items like item 3083 item 3812 item 3072 item 3074 item 3153 item 3146 which offer powerful sustain

Life steal and spell vamp in particular offer a lot of fighters like Yasuo Fiora MasterYi Jax XinZhao because not only do they gain a lot of sustain but they gain sustain through building damage something of which they excel at on top of the Warlords bloodlust.

On top of all that we have item 3065 which grants some tankiness and enhances all self healing along with CDR. To change grevous wounds probably might even more an entire item revamp with items meant to grant heavy amounts of sustain.

For the purpose of discussion I feel that we should put each sustaining champion into their own category of sustain.

Self health regenDrMundo Garen Zac Irelia XinZhao Heimerdinger Nunu

Item dependent sustain Yasuo Mordekaiser Jax Yasuo MasterYi Draven Ashe Varus Aatrox (You could literally list almost every champion in this category)

Life steal sustain Vladimir Aatrox Morgana Nasus Ryze

Support sustain: Soraka Taric Alistar Kayle Janna Bard Sona

Just examples, of course I think sustain in this game is a bit overboard with how it's been emphasized on especially in itemization.

DarthSpectrum5/10/2016, 1:57:32 AM2 votes

I think your explanation is pretty spot on. Grievous Wounds is a necessity in this game due to Soraka and Mundo. Without this mechanic, health regenerating abilities would need to be significantly weaker so champions like Mundo doesn't end up with more health at the end of a team fight.

However, I do not think that GW is lacking because Riot has implemented reasonable trade offs to use this mechanic. In order to get GW, ADCs must either give up roughly 15% of their damage from Lord Dominik's Regards, or champions must take ignite. The only champions that can get GW with no significant disadvantages are the mages. Morello is a solid item in most situations, but as you mentioned in your post, it has a conditional effect that allows for some breathing room for sustain champions.

Generally, players have to sacrifice something to get GW. Players would only choose Executioner's Calling over Giant Slayer if the enemy team has a champions like Soraka. Likewise, a support might opt for ignite instead of exhaust to counter healing in team fights. I understand your concern that GW might be too effective on champions such as Fiora or WW is not unjustified, but I don't think you need to worry about them. Most players won't get GW specifically for them because their healing isn't strong enough to warrant the 15% loss in damage or the ability to shut down an enemy carry's damage output for 2 seconds.

In my opinion the only problematic sustain champions are Mundo and Soraka (Trundle might be added on the list as well since QSS can't drop his ultimate anymore). Champions like Fiora, WW, and Aatrox aren't that big of an issue because you can deny them sustain by kiting their damage. Raka's and Mundo's health regeneration abilities should be altered to conform to GW, not the other way around. When they are ahead, they can out regen the amount of damage dealt to them, but when they are behind, they get blown up instantly. I would rather Riot implement a system that decides between a flat base value and a % health value to prevent sustain from either being irrelevant of overbearing. But that's just my two cents.

Athenes Lulu5/10/2016, 3:44:55 AM2 votes

I'm thinking of a "decreased heal for x seconds, and cannot happen again until y seconds has passed", rather than "decreased heals for as long as the spells permit".

Windspeaker's give bonus armor and MR, but only lasts for a certain amount of time, often shorter than the shield's duration. Thunderlord's Decree can be proced every so often so people have a brief window to breathe and do something about it. "Possibly overbearing" things like these have a set limit for a good reason, it gives people opportunities to find ways to work around other than winning/losing solely because of stat-checking.

Speaking of stat-checking, that's what building and not building GW does. You don't build it, sustain wins because they have better numbers than you do, and that is sustain. You build it, these sustain guys are pretty much "trashed" in terms of trying to work around. We can go on about the removal of global passives, permanent auras (hello Sona), and the like, because things that rely just on stat-checking, in a PvP situation, is no fun. There is no interaction other than binary results.

That's where the "limited debuffs" came to mind. Ignite isn't as bad as GW items in general because it only lasts for a given amount of time. Heck, even GW applied by champion abilities are only slightly better because they last a given amount of time. But with items, rotations of spells/autoattacks, that's where the certain limit is gone; that's nearly the equivalent of stat-checking. Decreasing healing is great, but what if people just spam consistently to the point where GW resets indefinitely?

Just dropping in some thoughts. Making GW apply for a set given amount of time, and can't apply again for a few seconds also gives a better reason to make GW more accessible through items.

Pierce The Veal5/10/2016, 4:14:08 PM1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aqua Dragon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lOGiX2PJ,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-05-09T09:15:00.055+0000)

snip

I disagree with everything you said minus the part where grievous wounds is not easy to see in combat. That much is true.

But sustain is binary? Grievous wounds is binary? Come on man. Following that train of thought, damage is binary because you either have enough damage to kill them or not. Defense is binary because you either have enough hp/armor/mr to survive or not. Cooldown reduction is binary because you either have your cooldowns down just in time or don't.

What you're detailing and arguing can be said for every statistic in the game.

In fact, greivous wounds is not nearly as binary as you proposed. Grievous wounds effectively ups your damage to a champion by 40% of their healing. So if mundo regens 70% of his hp with his ult, you effectively deal 28% of his hp as damage to him by applying grievous wounds to him.

Honestly, I feel like you just resent greivous wounds, but don't know how sustain would be balanced without it. Do note that literally the only change to grievous wounds is that it now also applies to Soraka, Nami, Nidalee, Sona, Janna, and perhaps a few others when they use spells to heal people.

If grievous wounds was really so problematic, this is a discussion that should have happened long ago, not just after a few more champions were added to the "hurt by greivous wounds" bunch.