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Mana users seem not to be compensated for their gating

McAllister·2/23/2015, 7:37:51 AM·6 votes·1,050 views

In a previous discussion, I made the assertion that mana-using champions tend either to suffer from being mana-gated, spend money on mana purchases that manaless champions don't need, or both: and that they aren't compensated for this. A questioner asked me whether or not any of the following existed, implying that they're the unique strengths of mana-using champions: I disagree.

Manaless champions with CC:

Manaless champions with AoE:

Manaless champions that are threatening after they've blown their CDs:

Manaless champions with game-changing ultimates:

Manaless champions who are threatening early, mid and late:

I contend that, other than the ability to be relegated to support if they wash out of another position, I don't know what mana champions have to compensate them for their gating as compared to the champions above. You're welcome to point-by-point disagree with my examples, but then I'll just highlight other weaknesses of champions that use mana... I believe it's impossible to draw a line that says "mana-using champions can do X better than anyone else" because no such line exists.

You know the drill. Upvote if you agree that mana-users need defined strengths (or manaless champs need defined weaknesses), comment if you disagree and we'll see if I can't change your mind.

20 Comments

ModThe Djinn2/23/2015, 7:55:05 AM3 votes

Most of the champions listed do have innate gating, often due to poor default skill rotations. Many of them have relatively un-impressive skill rotations, which tends to gate them either by the scaling required (Tryndamere), by ultimate availability (Yasuo), or by some alternate mechanic that dictates a certain flow of gameplay (Yasuo's downtime between knock-ups, Rumble's Heat management, Rengar's Ferocity, Renekton's Fury...) or gives them highlighted periods of strength and weakness.

That said, I do think a few manaless champions are overly reliable with their potential, and I'd be interested in seeing if a shift in power might make champions like Renekton, Zed, or Riven a little more dynamic in lane -- I don't think any of those champions have big design issues, but I do think it might be interesting to see how they would change if, for example, Renekton's raw power were decreased slightly when below a certain bar of Fury but increased further when above it, which would give him more exploitable moments of strength and weakness. Might be an interesting experiment.

Overall, however? I'm personally of the opinion that mana costs are fine, but many champions have over-costed abilities. I think large, play-making abilities need high costs or long cooldowns (Thresh pull, Blitzcrank hook, Veigar cage, Ahri charm....the big ones that dictate the flow of a fight), but I also am of the opinion that most champions can get away with a very low-cost reliable spell that they can rely on in lane if they don't need or want to make big plays. The Ezreal Q's of the game, basically.

In short, I'd be interested to see a shift in mana-cost assignment to reduce the costs of the lesser impact spells while increasing the costs of the big play-making abilities. Overall mana costs would remain fairly consistent, but making lane-winning plays or attempting them would come at a premium. Potential Downside: This could easily lead to boring lanes if taken too far. There's an obvious risk that putting a higher cost on play-making attempts will lead to more passive farming lanes, which I think is to League's detriment. The question is whether or not the increase in non-playing making spell casting will allow more mana-hungry characters to prosper, or increase harassing and trading patterns instead of hard-engaging patterns.

Not sure on my opinion: I'd have to actually see how people reacted to the adjustment both from a player enjoyment perspective and from a lane dynamic / game health perspective. Fun to think about though!

mjack332/23/2015, 7:52:19 AM3 votes

Sigh.

Best late game scaling champions are Nasus and Veigar. Both require mana. I think the phrase was, "there isn't really anything you can do about a farmed Nasus other than to 3 v 1 him".

Every good adc that currently sees a ton of use requires mana. Kalista is a nice example of a champ people get butthurt over, but I can really start listing them if we need to.

A very large number of the best supports use mana.

2 of the top 3 junglers? JarvanIV Use mana.

Yes. Manaless champions have their strengths. But that doesn't mean mana champions don't have a place. Furthermore, from Ahri to Vi, you are conveniently leaving out a lot of very good champs because they don't support your argument. Morgana Ahri Thresh

SmokingPuffin2/23/2015, 4:59:31 PM2 votes

I don't think this discussion is productive in the abstract. Gotta look at particular kits. "Mana using champions" is just too big a group of champions for them to have much in common with each other beyond using mana.

Some mana users feel pretty bad right now. Others feel pretty great. The problem isn't with the resource. It's with individual kits.

Talamare2/23/2015, 7:39:42 AM2 votes

It's less about Riot not rewarding Mana champions and more that Riot would rather see players spamming the fuck out of everything for LCSBIGPLAYS

Meep Man2/23/2015, 7:06:40 PM1 votes

I dont think Rumble could be considered as free as a bird as far as resources go. He is about as gated as mana users in a typical fight when resources are used. His spells should do about as much as a mana user does since he can't just spam them similar to mana users otherwise he will be silenced and typically useless unless he was already ahead in a fight for 6 seconds.

Thanotos Omega2/23/2015, 8:11:39 AM1 votes

Almost every mana gated champion would instantly jump to a god tier above anything ever seen in this game if they had no mana gating

Sejuani People would probably just have a second Duo lane rather then try jungleing against her

Midlane would be impossible for anyone else to really even play in much less dominate

Mana gated champions have significant power allotted thanks to that feature, just because infinite spam isn't one of them doesn't mean they aren't powerful.

Erockandroll2/23/2015, 4:04:12 PM1 votes

The problem is that champion X is too mana gated. More like champion x doesn't benefit from mana enough. Considering that Mana regen is at a point where one item fix all, (old chalice) is no longer a thing. The champs that need mana the most are ones who benefit less from AP (lower ratios) but benefit from Casting spells more frequently. I would probably buff the base mana regen on champs that benefit most from regen and cooldown (ziggs, lux, etc) while Burst mages and Assassins focus more on damage.

AMYS GRAVE2/23/2015, 6:00:39 PM1 votes

While i agree mostly that mana users need to be compensated for their gating, several of the champions you list have meaningful resources. Shen's energy is quite limiting, Aatrox's health management is something to worry about, Rumble's heat management is somewhat tricky, ....