Discussion: Why have AP Bruisers failed as an Archetype?

Angyal·Dec 20, 2019·2 votes·2,697 views

My thoughts for the reason why the AP Bruiser archetype has failed is a mixture of two points:

The lack of proper AP bruiser items so they must borrow other mage items from other archetypes to succeed.
Some aspects of the AP bruisers are geared way too much toward upfront damage (burst) than sustained damage or utility/mitigation to the point where they are a detriment to the team for not focusing on the burst aspect of their kit.

So what are your thoughts towards this question?

21 Comments

ModThe DjinnDec 20, 20194 votes

So what are your thoughts towards this question?

My thoughts are very simple: the lack of base AP as a champion statistic.

One of the reasons you can create AD bruisers is that solid base AD and a kit that needs durability to work mean that you can offer tank-focused items that synergize well with sustained combat while still ensuring some combat scaling, and due to how AD / Crit / AS works you can offer AD items that don't give enough AD to be appealing to off-roles.

With AP being a "once-size-fits-all," you either have to give AP bruisers alternate scaling (tricky to balance right) or deal with one of the following three situations:

Poor scaling, so AP items feel bad. The character likely builds tank.
Good scaling, so pure AP items feel great. The character becomes an assassin.
Design high AP bruiser items. Mages and Assassins now become extremely durable.

Having a form of base AP would let us build ratios or items based on it, such as an AP Bruiser item that gives +50% base AP and tank stats. A hard-scaling AP Assassin or Carry with low (or no) base AP wouldn't want that, but a champion like Rumble, who might have solid base AP, would be very interested. You could even make some ratios rely ONLY on base AP if you wanted to avoid burst-focused builds on these champions (and if balance required it).

RagnaveilDec 20, 20191 votes

I think the easiest way to do it without making it a headache is give all AP bruisers a passive that converts part of their base AD into AP. Another big problem for AP bruisers is Riot's lack of care of giving them good early base AD so their autos aren't as weak as a support tank's auto. Morde, Sylas, Diana all suffer from that since their damage trades require more autos than Rumble (who only does more auto damage in trades when overheated). Also, Sylas suffers from the fact the physical part of his auto is eaten by the garbage scaling of his passive. It just needs to be separated so the primary takes physical and magical damage from the auto. You dont see Diana's passive eating her physical damage.

ModThe DjinnDec 20, 20191 votes

{quoted}I think the easiest way to do it without making it a headache is give all AP bruisers a passive that converts part of their base AD into AP.

Nah, 'cause then you have to tweak their AD (which may be fine) to tweak their AP, causing potentially balance issues. Keeping base AP and base AD separate would avoid that issue.

RagnaveilDec 20, 20191 votes

Ok, then it has to be unique to only AP bruisers. If this thing exists for mages, we gonna have a problem (cuz they will abuse it first chance they get, just like when Riot tried opening conq up to more users (when they did that in a previous test and had to remove it because Ryze and Cassio were gods)).

ModThe DjinnDec 20, 20191 votes

{quoted}Ok, then it has to be unique to only AP bruisers. If this thing exists for mages, we gonna have a problem [cuz they will abuse it first chance they get]

You'll notice I mentioned Mages would get little if any base AP in my original post. You could, however, use it as a secondary source of minor scaling based on level if you wanted to, while keeping the numbers low enough to discourage tank itemization.

RagnaveilDec 20, 20191 votes

I personally dont care how it works, I just dont want mages ruining it. Im that tired of the class at this point. God forbid you're a melee with no gapcloser vs Aniv, its like trying to surf a 90 ft wave.

Demented LemurDec 20, 20193 votes

Well Considering mordekaiser is doing fine right now I don't think they really suffer from a lack of ap bruiser items. In fact, I think they benefit from it more than anything, because of mage items already being so good. ap items are some of the best items in the game imo

AngyalDec 20, 20191 votes

That's what I discussed in my first point. The items that Morde picks up are not meant for AP Bruisers. Hourglass was designed to give squishy ap mages a defensive option versus AD champions that would get in their faces. And Liandry's was made for long range mages to allow their poke to affect high HP individuals. These items were designed with an archetype in mind, ap bruisers currently do not have that kindness done for them.

ZephyrDrakeDec 20, 20191 votes

{quoted}

That's what I discussed in my first point. The items that Morde picks up are not meant for AP Bruisers. Hourglass was designed to give squishy ap mages a defensive option versus AD champions that would get in their faces. And Liandry's was made for long range mages to allow their poke to affect high HP individuals. These items were designed with an archetype in mind, ap bruisers currently do not have that kindness done for them.

Liandris literally has a passive that allows you to deal more damage the longer you are fighting someone. How is the item just for long range mages again? Hell why would long range mages care about the HP it gives? They should be far enough that they shouldn't be in danger of the enemy. Zhonyas also has a bunch of utility and is not only for "oops I got jumped!".

Zhonyas is a generalist item and for long range mages Ludens would fit that way better than liandrys ever would.

Sir SaltarinDec 20, 20191 votes

Hourglass was designed to give squishy ap mages

That never stopped Vladimir Swain Ekko Ryze from using it.

Maybe it was created with what you said in mind, but it has been used by most AP champs since forever because it's just such a great item.

Sire HippingtonDec 20, 20191 votes

Well, morde has tons of base stats in his kit, and free% pen, AND IS MANALESS so he gets away with different itemisation. He also has high base survivabillity so he doesn't need to much tankiness from items. If you look at his common builts, it's 900hp in his first 3 items, or 600hp+50armor If you go for that items on most other APs, you'r still rather squishy.

RagnaveilDec 20, 20191 votes

Conq is the only thing keeping him from residing to a useless existence. Just gonna put it out there plain as day. Try playing Morde with ANY other keystone.

Darkdemon653Dec 20, 20192 votes

It didn't fail.

KazekibaDec 20, 20192 votes

They were so close to launching a full-scale item shop rework, removing Duskblade and putting Ohmwrecker somewhere useful, making item 3136 build into more than 1 item and item 3010 feel a LOT better to build/sit on and item 3027 actually do its job as a mid-game delayed powerspike. Whats the point of RoA when it gives the same stats as a Luden/Morello but no CDR or passives?

And then, inexplicably, it all got cancelled.

Why?

RagnaveilDec 20, 20191 votes

Because. Mages.

Hayaishi2Dec 20, 20191 votes

Lack of proper itemization.

Z3SIeeperDec 20, 20191 votes

I think AP bruiser itemization is just something that can never occur. Any effective AP + Health item is going to be used by all mages, not just AP Bruisers. We've seen it when RoA was strong, Rylais, Morello, etc.

In that case, I think the AP Bruiser classification needs to come entirely from the kit relying on that sort of itemization.

Galio works well as an AP Bruiser due to how long his W damage reduction stays active for (and cuz it scales on AP).

Mordekaiser works out due to full AP scaling on everything plus his W scaling directly with both damage dealt (AP) and how much damage he can take (health), which results in him wanting AP health items.

New Diana got some love in this direction, but she's basically still being played like an AP assassin-diver hybrid and ignoring AP + Health items outside RoA.

Moving forward, I think if Riot wants any AP champ to be played as a bruiser, they need to look into these sort of defensive tools built into AP Bruiser kits.

I do however think that the health + AP itemization pool (especially manaless) is a little bit too limited at the moment and we could use an extra item or two to fill this hole.

RagnaveilDec 20, 20191 votes

It can work, its just it has to go under the "Melee only" restriction so Ryze and Cassio cant put their mitts on them. But god forbid they deny mages the luxury of more AP items that are not theirs.

haaaaaaalpDec 20, 20191 votes

I don't think they failed, I think people try to pidgeonhole too many champions into an ap bruiser role. In order for a champion to be a decent bruiser, they need good consistant damage. Champions like singed, rumble, amumu, or mordekaiser all fit well into that role and have been fine. Meanwhile, champions with kits like galio or chogath work better as either a tank or a burst mage. Meanwhile, champions like diana, ekko, and sylas fit better as an ap skirmisher. When people try to pidgeonhole these champions into a bruiser role, that is when they run into trouble.

On the ad side, we don't really say that bruisers failed simply because sion or fiora do not play as bruisers. However, on the ap side, people tend to blur the line more.

RagnaveilDec 20, 20191 votes

They have. If it didnt fail, we wouldnt be here talking about it.

Sire HippingtonDec 20, 20191 votes

It'S mostly the lack of itemisation and wrong tuning for potential AP-brusier champions.

Champs like diana usually have to high ratio and to low bases to work on a low AP built, but lack the item options to get a suitable mix of AP and defense, while the high ratios make them great on full AP.

However, the biggest issue is where bruisers fail no matter if ap or ad, it's damage creep. Sustained combat patterns on a melee just don't work outside of a 1v1, you just don#t live long enough to do your job, so you need to burst down threats quickly. It's not just Ap-bruisers that are geared towards upfront damage at the current state of the game. I've played many champs with bruiser builts back in the day, cause back then items didn#t scale as much in multiplicative ways. Nashors and guinsoos for example were stat sticks rather than haveing an additional ap-scaleing and amping other on-hit, so they were stronger on theri own and didn't scale that well with additional damage. Squishys were actually vulnerable and you didn't need absurd damage numbers to threaten them, while even 2 tank items allready made quite an impact. Now you feel like anything that isn't fulltank dies in a sec, and many champs feel like the hardly deal damage if they don't stack off items that synergies with each other. There are to few items that are strong on their own, to much dependency with other items so you usually get somewhat foced into certain builts. The only exeption for that are trinity, bc and ravenous aswell as to some extend titanic and steraks(though both need additional health, but that's still a big pool of items to choose from), which are all ad-bruiser items and the reason why ad-bruisers still work to some extend.

Also, Riot never really released an proper AP bruiser, it's been usually either tanks with high enough ratios to make use of some AP items, or AP assasins going more tanky, and everone looses their shit when AP assasins go more tanky(fizz/ekko and even release sylas who arguably was designed as AP-bruiser and now gets turned into an assasin)

P.S. I also like The DJinn's base AP idea, haveing some overall damage scaleing per level and potential bruiser items that give a % base AP increase like sterkas does for AD would also help alot.