Boards›Gameplay

Garen's changes seem very forced for the sake of "uniqueness"

Guardman·8/4/2015, 9:08:20 PM·59 votes·3,857 views

Garen is easily my most played champion, so I was interested in what changes they were going to give him. But after seeing and reading about the Villain changes it feels like he was more given a "lore created" ability rather than a "gameplay created" ability. What I mean by this is it doesn't add to Garen's place on a teamcomp and it seems like it is a false choice mechanic. In addition smoothing out his power curve takes away one of Garen's most prominent and unique features having one of the best early games in the game for something he doesn't really needs or wants in a better late game.

What is Garen's place on a team comp and why do you choose Garen.

  1. You want a dominant early game to either shut down a late game champion or be able survive against another strong laner and a strong ganking jungler. This is the number 1 reason to pick Garen.

  2. The enemy team has several targets that can be shut down with a long silence, such as Katarina, Fizz, LeBlanc, Lee Sin, etc.

  3. Enemy team is full of champs that will naturally clump up allowing you to be in the middle of them.

  4. Based on team comps, team fights are going to be prolonged, allowing Garen to leave and come back in a few seconds later at full health (this, while not something you can always count on, is his greatest and most unique strength)

  5. Your team needs a tanky assassin.

What does a Garen want to do in game:

  1. Depending on the match-up either survives or dominates the laning phase. Unless the Garen player makes some mistakes (or gets very camped) it can be hard to outright lose the laning phase.

  2. Once out of the laning phase Garen has two choices:

2A. Split push and put pressure on objectives. Due to his passive and strong midgame dueling it will often take at least two enemies to stop Garen. And thanks to his Q he can often outrun all but the CC heavy or slippery teams.

2B. Participate in teamfights where Garen is tasked to one combo (q, e, r, ignite as needed) out of position squishies or brute force through the enemy frontline to enemy squishies to either kill them or chase them out of the fight.

  1. Late game (post 16), his split pushing becomes much stronger and any team fight he walks away from is like he instantly went back to base and teleported back. This gives him an unique opportunity to take objectives or push for towers that almost any other champion would have to back to base for.

What these changes do:

  1. Any change to his power curve will hurt his laning phase a lot. He can win against Vlad, Teemo, and other common ranged top laners because he can harshly punish any mistakes they make. Any noticeable reduction in early game power opens up a huge swath of champions that he just doesn't have the tools to deal with.

  2. Villain marks doesn't add to anything he already wants to do. In addition its semi random nature means that there is a possibility it is on a target he doesn't want to go after (a tank for example or a bruiser like Shen or Shyvana), on a target he can't get to (Ezreal) or a target that is not out of position. If its not on one of those things well Garen was going to go after that target anyways. At best it doesn't add any gameplay decision. At worst it can lead players into making the wrong choice by going after a target they shouldn't be going after. Because of this it is a poorly designed mechanic.

  3. Villain doesn't really do anything to help his late game. He already has the damage to consistently kill squishies late game so the Villain mark doesn't help there. And killing/fighting tanks isn't something he should be doing in the first place. In addition it doesn't do anything to help or mitigate his late game issues which are mobility and easy to apply consistent CC.

  4. Villain doesn't really fit Garen's kit theme. His kit is not to take out the villain of the enemy team. It is to charge into the middle of battle, take out a squishy, and then leave the battle while he rests for a few seconds before jumping back in. If villain helps deliver on this theme, then it by random chance of the right villain being marked, not because of the mechanic.

  5. With crit scaling being removed on E it basically forces Garen out of the stat he most wants in flat armor penetration. In addition it hurts his ability to use his best and most synergistic item in Yomuu's as the speed boost active was amazing on him.

  6. I've played Garen since season 1 and there was a reason W's stacking mechanic was changed. It felt bad to level up, but unless leveled up early you didn't feel or appreciate the passive and it was quite possible you never finished killing enough stuff to get to 30. When they changed it to the current passive it was probably one of the best changes they made.

  7. His long silence is one of his most unique aspects and is what allows him to one combo squishies. Without it his late game problems become even worse because he can't lock out a squishies mobility or flashes. It also takes away his in game niche as he was great for countering combo/slippery champs because of its duration.

  8. After these changes he really has no offensive items he will feel good about building. Youmuu's and IE were his bread and butter AD items, but without Judgment's crit it is hard to justify Youmuu's and impossible to justify IE. Black Cleaver in theory he should like, but Garen wants Flat penetration not % reduction since he shouldn't be fighting anyone buying a lot of armor anyways. Plus Black Cleaver has a horrible build path for him. Titanic Hydra is for auto-attackers (and Garen doesn't really AA). Sterak's Gage is alright, but while usable, doesn't give Garen any of what he wants in an AD item, mainly CDR, Flat Armor Pen, and AD he doesn't have to take damage for (which is the biggest reason I don't like to upgrade Maw before I have to on Garen). He has a lot of usable AD items, but none that say hey I should really want to build this on him.

TLDR - Smoothing his power curve takes away one of Garen's most unique aspects, while villain doesn't help his kit's theme, his gameplay, or his late game issues.

38 Comments

2nd Chance8/4/2015, 9:45:02 PM8 votes

This will be one of the dumbest reworks if this gets shove to live as is.

like... THE HECK IS THE POINT OF THE ATTACK RANGE BUFF EVEN?!...

Critmaster Garen8/4/2015, 9:30:25 PM5 votes

thank you. id rather not this goes live. its doesnt look like its worth.

it only amplifies his problems of getting kited for a gimmicky mechanic. if you had some form of control over the mark it might be a different story, but hes losing out on so much for a boost against a random target that he might not even want to fight.

it looks like hes stronger against his mark, but significantly weaker against everyone else. and that self slow against the champions he hits with his spin, holy shit thats dumb.

im also incredibly salty that they did end up nerfing his silence.

Lord Vyce8/5/2015, 1:07:23 AM3 votes

Even now people are trying to argue that these changes are good simply by saying "T-true damage ult." So Garen is now back to square one. Being a walking ult that does NOTHING otherwise.

Leave his E crit alone. Stop changing his base kit. If you need to make some shaves for the Villain system (why?) then 5% off the Armor/MR scaling and .5 off the silence. Done and done.

GloriousKaiser8/4/2015, 9:50:33 PM3 votes

Riot is just too afraid to make the jump to actually make them juggernauts. They're chipping at the foundation to put pretty stones at the top. They don't want these champions to turn out like their newer releases. Only difference here is that dashing isn't a factor for any of these guys. Sure all of them have some sort of MS to run faster, but minimal compared to true mobility.

Maybe they forgot that the juggernauts don't have dashes to take up a kit budget. But I'm joking of course they know this, they just don't want straight up, indomitable tanks that deal damage.

TraakSC8/4/2015, 9:56:28 PM2 votes

Up vote this please as its the only thread about the changes in the last hour or so that is even remotely coherent or readable. Even if you disagree.

Karn Bishop8/5/2015, 1:46:11 AM1 votes

I'm reading all these change comments for all the champs and the complaints seem to boil down to one stealthy point, we don't like having actual legitimate counter play on these champions so were going to yell until riot caves in and decides not to go though with it.

I honestly think garen might be too strong with these changes, its like the community thinks the ability to tell the 10/0 vayne or fizz or zed sorry you are sitting this team fight out is a bad thing, seriously the potential to lock out a carry on the enemy team with his new kit is huge yet everyone acts like its worthless.

Gigahappytown8/5/2015, 1:49:27 AM1 votes

Well the changes are going into a good direction BUUUUT the numbers on courage are too shit and his q duration needs to be bumped to 2.0 as they said they are thinking of buffing the duration if it proves too underwhelming

Guardman8/5/2015, 3:26:24 AM1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Karn Bishop,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l8EGT76k,comment-id=000a0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-05T03:01:25.906+0000)

Not seeing an issue here, not being able to catch out a well protected squishy is true of all champions ( unless your rengar but you die afterwards usually ) The entire meta is now about the late game so saying screw it means you have given up on winning the match.

They are also adding more itemization for top lane as well so that solves the itemization problem, and armors getting a nerf which takes care of the brutalizer problem.

Also garen is not an assassin, and as such will have the ability to not instantly die when entering a fight late game and can eventually make his way to his target and should they blow their CC to stop you from doing so then congrats there is now less or no CC to be used against your team gj buddy.

People seem to forget that pure AD garen has never been what garen is about, he used to be the ultimate tanky dude who could run into the back lines and either succeed or ensure skills are wasted on him and focus target another dude.

  1. Other assassins have other tools to get there. LeBlanc and Akali have dashes, Zed has his ult, etc. They have a lot more leeway on when to engage and when they can't. Garen has to run at his target.

  2. Late game only matters if a champion gets there. If Garen does his job the game never gets to the late game or his opponent is not at a late game point unlike the rest of his/her team. He has a late game plan, its just to not let you get there.

  3. His targets don't buy armor outside of a GA so the armor nerfs don't matter to him in this context. The flat armor pen is purely because of his high base values. Because of them, flat armor pen is a great stat on him.

  4. He is more Tank Assassin than fighter. He can duel, but he is ok, not great after the mid game and once teamfights start. And against a tank, he often loses as he doesn't have the damage to deal with them in a timely manner. But if he can reach a squishy he can kill them and walk away as the rest of the squishies team tries to kill you. That is why he is a tank assassin.

  5. After his 6 sunfire days he has progressed towards more AD heavy builds as mobility increases have lessened his ability to stick to his targets, making getting the most damage into the least amount of time more important.

Troll for Trump8/5/2015, 4:33:10 AM1 votes

What the fuck is riot trying to do to Darius ? Buff him?

Ulquiorra9958/5/2015, 1:48:30 PM1 votes

The main problem I see here is that Garen will be completely unable to stick to his target. Old Garen and it hard enough, but new one? Loss of silence duration, loss of tenacity and self-slow. Good job ever proccing that flashy Villain-buffed ult on anything with slightest form of mobility or CC.

TraakSC8/4/2015, 9:25:49 PM1 votes

I agree, removing his current passive is gonna hurt his early game sustain. Maybe I am just playing him wrong but champs like Gnar already f me up with their constant poke. This change gonna hurt me. Secretly I was hoping for an ult reset like Darius so you could start executing everyone but sadly no :( Maybe executing the "villian" could reset your ult hehe.

Guardman8/5/2015, 5:20:28 PM1 votes

After looking over the new "Juggernaut" items, I added a point 8 in that Garen doesn't really have a good AD item for him anymore. He just has a bunch of usable ones.

LadyRenly8/4/2015, 9:34:48 PM1 votes

They're changing his passive, are you serious? My God. His passive+warmogs was a great combo for making yourself an immovable, steadfast guardian of the top lane

Blahhhhhh8/4/2015, 9:44:51 PM1 votes

so garen doesn't get 300+ health regen with 2 item anymore? fucking A -.-

kiloechoesp8/5/2015, 12:04:30 AM1 votes

I honestly believe his new changes are going to be broken... as in a huge buff

Attack range buff makes him better in lane, judgement cd is less and cancelling returns cooldown... no longer moves slower through minions

and demacian justice is an obvious buff, since it's exactly the same as the original spell, but with a true dmg vs. Villains!

SavemeEric8/5/2015, 12:34:14 AM1 votes

Yea realistically these changes are shit, it takes away so much diversity from his play style. It is the death of crit Garen and a severe nerf to his snowball potential. It is also a nerf to full tank Garen as his silence on his Q is nerfed as well as his innate tankyness in his W and his late game regen from his passive. These are are things he desperately needs if he falls behind or gets counterpicked so that he doesn't feed. His early game nerfs will also limit his potential as a counter to Riven, Renekton, and other early game powerhouses. We end up with less stickyness, less tankyness,, and less damage that a full crit garen. This forces us down a linear build bath of brawler. The new Ult passive is also gimmicky and will make it harder on new players learning tom focus the carry. Now they will attempt to kill whoever is marked even if it is a 5k tank Sion with his passive up. Overall this is a serious nerf to Garens; playability, tankyness, stickyness, damage, and diversity. They are essentially making him mediocre at everything instead of allowing him to build what he wants to be good at situationally. Right now he is not in a bad place as he can try to snowball early and failing that transition to a tank or brawler. After these nerfs I really feel he wont be nearly as viable or diverse.