Solved: How to stop level 1 duos from poaching Jungle Camps

Pally San·12/18/2014, 6:57:46 PM·3 votes·2,809 views

The design problem of level 1 camp poaching is that the side lane camps are very easily accessible to duos who are generally able defeat the camp without taking enough penalties to dissuade them from just leashing and heading to lane. However, Summoners Rift ALREADY has a built in system that favors junglers clearing camps early over laners and that is Smite summoner 11 .

Essentially, smite is a tool that only the Jungler has access to the majority of the time. So, by tieing in the level 1 clear of those camps to the summoner spell smite you essentially solve the problem of level 1 Poaching.

(*) SMITERAGE - The first spawn of the large Krugg and the Gromp possess a a buff which increases their attack speed, damage and deals an additional large amount of magic damage on hit to champions which do not possess the summoner spell Smite summoner 11. This buff dissipates after 15 seconds (2:10).

So essentially the jungler has to be present to tank the camp, meaning the camp should logically go to the jungler. The camp will do significantly more damage to a champion without Smite than with it, meaning that the cost of poaching has now gone up specifically for non junglers and specifically at level 1.

With these two approaches, later in the game jungle camps still possess the same threat they do now to non junglers while poaching at level becomes a largely non-viable option.

Any other ideas on how to solve the poaching problem? Discuss.

EDIT: Cleared one idea away that seemed non viable, leaving the buff I idea in which I think was the better of the two. The shield idea was just a brainstorm, a buff against smiteless champions until 2:10 seems far healthier.

EDIT: For those downvoting, I challenge you to provide a better alternative. This thread's purpose is to discuss possible solutions, not just dismiss the first one that comes up. This WOULD solve the problem in the most specific way possible, if you feel there is a better alternative please talk about it rather than making my voice hidden among the many threads like IM MAD AT LOL BEcAUSE MAGES SHOULD ALWAYS LOSE TO JUNGLERS or other stupid threads like that.

40 Comments

ModThe Djinn12/18/2014, 7:13:17 PM5 votes

These solutions technically work...but it's pretty inelegant from a design perspective, honestly. Especially since it means a lot of non-immediately-apparent buff icons on the monster. That's a big learning curve.

I'd rather see it solved by making it more obvious: simply up the starting health/damage of the monsters, readjust their late-game scaling to be closer to the current curve (or just have them start scaling later), and bake the extra damage done / reduced damage taken into Smite, making it's role much more obvious.

That way people who DON'T have Smite are immediately aware of the threat of the monster, and people who DO have Smite know they'll take, say, 25% reduced damage from Jungle monsters. You could even work the flat damage from Machete and the flat health regeneration into the SPELL Smite itself and free up Junglers to build whatever they want instead of jungle-specific items.

Honestly, I'm sort of confused by that. We do all this stuff to make junglers viable, but we also run under the assumption that Smite is mandatory for jungling. So why not just bake the "you need Smite to jungle" into the spell from the beginning and readjust the jungle-specific items?

ModThe Djinn12/18/2014, 7:56:51 PM4 votes

Hm. What about a game-wide Debuff that appears on the CHAMPION'S HUD, and reads something like this:

It's a Jungle Out There: This champion takes X% increased damage from Jungle monsters until 2:10 into the game. Champions with the Smite Summoner spell do not suffer this effect.

That way EVERYONE, even new players who aren't jungling, can see the debuff on their bar, hard time to read and process it, and see how Smite interacts with it. I think this might be close to the maximum clarity that can be accomplished for both Junglers and non-Junglers alike. Thoughts?

Another potential change would be that the DEATH of a jungle monster removes the debuff...something like "Fear of the Unknown," which gets a fun potential immersion point when your jungler take a camp and the jungle stops being a frightening place. But that's just flavor. :P

ModThe Djinn12/18/2014, 9:16:43 PM2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Envy Sin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l3WFTtyK,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2014-12-18T21:00:49.674+0000)

OR you could spread out and ward up your jungle at level one with the trinket wards RIOT GAVE YOU. Which stops level one poaching OR you just take the camp they took on the other side. Not seeing the issue.

The issue isn't invading. The issue is that YOUR team is taking your jungle, and using it to enter lane with a very sizeable XP advantage over their opponents. And, since the jungles aren't symmetrical with regards to top lane/bottom lane, it's not a nice balance: whichever lane gets the camp more easily taken gets an advantage.

{quoted}

I've been really liking the in game tooltip pop up thing they've been doing when larger changes are made. Possibly make a map trigger that when a player views Kruggs or Gromp they get one of those [!] popups that inform them of the camps added difficulty? Additionally, there would have to be visual indicators of the buff. Stuff like red/purple flames. Made increased speed on the animations, a ground aura texture. Stuff like that can help with that aspect I think.

I thought about that, yeah. It's just...it feels odd to put it on just those two camps. I know edge cases like Maokai / Shaco exist, and so you don't want to give the same thing to Death Chickens / Wolves, but...something about it just doesn't feel right.

Probably just my hatred of clunky mechanics though...and, sadly, the jungle MIGHT be clunky enough that we HAVE to resort to clunky mechanics to remedy it.

Envy Sin12/18/2014, 9:00:49 PM1 votes

OR you could spread out and ward up your jungle at level one with the trinket wards RIOT GAVE YOU. Which stops level one poaching OR you just take the camp they took on the other side. Not seeing the issue.

Pryotra12/18/2014, 9:37:50 PM1 votes

I think a far more elegant way to do this is apply a similar radius dection that the towers use, so that if the jungler with smite isn't nearby, the camps become significantly tankier for the early game. Late game, not so much, but early game for sure.

This, of course, would not apply to Baron or Dragon, as they are team based objectives that should not be inaccessible simply because the jungler died in the teamfight.

Lobode12/18/2014, 9:40:20 PM1 votes

Can someone explain to me why there is a problem with someone other than a jungler killing jungle mobs? I thought the entire point of the jungle was to be an optional way to add variety getting xp and gold. Getting early xp and gold from jungle mobs as a laner should be allowed as it is equal on both sides. Its not like its an early dragon that can not be done by both teams. The only reason I see this being an issue is for those that do not want to adapt.

AnOstrichWithPMS12/19/2014, 12:01:55 AM1 votes

why don't u just tax your lane harder? lmao

Pally San12/19/2014, 10:03:30 PM1 votes

Bampu, day 2.

Bismuthinite12/19/2014, 10:09:22 PM1 votes

My proposal:

Level 1 jungle monsters give 0 exp to everyone who does not have smite as a summoner spell / didn't buy machete. Or make this only apply to frog / rocks, so duo junglers won't be totally screwed.

Considering how punishing the game is to players who forget to bring smite in S5, this wouldn't make too much of a difference.

Pally San12/19/2014, 10:38:00 PM1 votes

The issue is that gromp is not kiteable while Kruggs are. This creates a health disparity just by being on the wrong side of the map. I don't think Riot is concerned with denying Gromp/Krugg buff to junglers as they have stated they want to preserve laners jungling early as a strategic option.

FantasySniper12/19/2014, 11:55:09 PM1 votes

It's worthless to poach now anyways. Only one person gets the XP, both will be taking tons of damage, and the gold provided isn't worth staying out of lane for.

Pally San12/18/2014, 7:07:43 PM1 votes

Not sure how this forum works, haven't stopped in here since the new forum switch over. Do I need to say bump? I can't even see this thread in the thread list.

Welp, bump!

Quepha12/19/2014, 11:58:34 PM1 votes

here at riot games we are encouraging strategic diversity by MAKING THE KRUGGS KILL YOU AND YOUR ENTIRE FAMILY IF YOU TRY TO TAKE THEM FROM YOUR JUNGLER

Grouchy Poro12/18/2014, 7:19:59 PM1 votes

The goal with reducing poaching has been stated by Rioters to not make the camps inaccessible, but rather make laners think twice and give a 'do you really want to take these?' feel.

Plus, what about junglers who start at gromp or krugs and need to smite secure or would rather get a smiteless leash?

Sirsir12/18/2014, 8:53:47 PM1 votes

Simple way to do it is to do what they did with the gold. Buff the damage but make the Jungler passive reduce damage from jungle creeps.