League Of Legends Designer Admits They Messed Up The Jungle

white Eragon·Mar 10, 2015·37 votes·5,123 views

League Of Legends Designer Admits They Messed Up The Jungle

Now they are admitting their mistake, this is the first step in solving their messed up problem...now the second part is that they should fucking fix it immediately . A quick reminder: “Jungler” is a unique position on a League of Legends team, one that puts the player in-between the map’s three main lanes that the four other players are assigned at the start of a match. Jungling therefore involves managing two different responsibilities simultaneously: killing a series of computer-controlled monsters in relative isolation (i.e., without the help of your teammates) and dropping in on any of the three lanes to assassinate opponents or help your teammates do so by “ganking” (think “gang kill”) enemies.

Given its specific requirements and its importance for the rest of the team, jungler is a tough position to play in League of Legends. The changes that Riot made in its recent 5.4 patch were unwelcome to many League fans because players felt they were making an already hard position even harder. The added difficulty in turn meant that only a small slice of the game’s wide array of colorful characters could even hope to perform adequately in the jungle.

Many players didn’t appreciate the changes to League’s jungle, then, because they felt the adjustments limited the diversity in character selection—a big part of what makes the game so darn fun, seeing how it has more than 120 champions to choose from and play with. In his GameSpot interview (which followed a related talk he gave last week at the Game Developer’s Conference), Scott explained that the 5.4 changes were in fact designed to resolve a problem with the jungle—just not the one that many League fans might have been thinking of (emphasis mine):

41 Comments

Learn 2 SwimMar 10, 201538 votes

Riot admits they failed at the jungle changes because Lee Sin isn't #1 right now.

DomainSpecificMar 10, 20158 votes

Nah, Riot always cares too much about Lee Sin.

He seldom is #1. Instead, other junglers fight the #1 spot while he sits comfortably in the second best spot.

junglerboy16Mar 11, 20156 votes

This^ He is annoying because he is always "good enough" to still be viable most of the time, but not really good enough to seem like he needs to get any major nerfs.

Bears Dont CareMar 11, 20154 votes

{quoted}

This^ He is annoying because he is always "good enough" to still be viable most of the time, but not really good enough to seem like he needs to get any major nerfs.

Which is why he's always been a competitive jungler almost....every season.

DemiluniSMar 11, 20151 votes

I really don't get those people who complaining about a champion being competitively viable. You want diversity, but every other month after a champion saw the spotlight of competitive league, the champion asked to be nerfed so he won't be picked in the pro scene anymore.

junglerboy16Mar 11, 20152 votes

Um, what? Lee as a champion squashes diversity when he is popular, and he is only ever not a top pick when there is another champ doing what he does, better. People usually complain about Lee being viable because they want diversity, and he has a tendency to strangle diversity (again, if he isn't a top pick at any given moment, that is because their is some champion that is equally or more oppressive that is still keeping diversity down).

Rinky DinkyMar 11, 20155 votes

They literally said one of the reason's the jungle was unfun was BECAUSE LEE SIN EXISTS

They shamed Lee Sin, and said he was bullshit.

But yeah, thats totally why

The Red WardenMar 10, 201511 votes

Not trying to contradict but why did you specify it as a "league of legends" designer?

It's not as if Blizzard or Valve sent out designers to try and mess up Lol... wait a minute...

Illuminati confirmed

Yuki AkumaMar 10, 201512 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Red Warden,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kZLly364,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-03-10T20:20:01.453+0000)

Not trying to contradict but why did you specify it as a "league of legends" designer?

It's not as if Blizzard or Valve sent out designers to try and mess up Lol... wait a minute...

Illuminati confirmed

Ghostcrawler.

The Red WardenMar 10, 20152 votes

They are one in the same.

AntiSkillshotMar 11, 20158 votes

[{quoted}](name=Yuki Akuma,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kZLly364,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-03-10T20:51:43.262+0000)

Ghostcrawler.

ThryaleMar 11, 20151 votes

wait, I know ghostcrawler is from blizzard, but who did valve send over?

CamaHaMar 11, 20152 votes

{quoted}

wait, I know ghostcrawler is from blizzard, but who did valve send over?

The creators of LoL came from DotA team.

ThryaleMar 11, 20151 votes

oh, I thought he meant after the creation of league, not the actual creation of it.

JunkοMar 10, 20159 votes

Soooo when are they gonna admit they fucked up Veigar?

Rinky DinkyMar 11, 20153 votes

They did as soon as the patch hit

JunkοMar 11, 20155 votes

And didn't even attempt to open a Veigar discussion thread

Thresh Outta FuxMar 10, 20155 votes

I just found out I can clear the jungle as Sion without using a health pot, and only smiting twice.

Who knew?

But honestly, the jungle is difficult for any player who isn't 100% geared for jungling.

DisasterSolaMar 10, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rentable Player,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kZLly364,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-03-10T20:54:19.592+0000)

I just found out I can clear the jungle as Sion without using a health pot, and only smiting twice.

Who knew?

But honestly, the jungle is difficult for any player who isn't 100% geared for jungling.

WHich is why the jungle is now stupid difficult, for no reason. Back in S3 and S4 you could jungle with anyone because runes and smite were taken into consideration during balancing. In S5, PERFECT runes and smite are what the jungle is balanced around.

If you dont have runes, you cant jungle. At all. you can only conveivebly do it on things like Vi, lee, amumu, skarner, and a few others who are sustain/have good shields.

Baron of BreadMar 11, 20152 votes

Challenge accepted! I shall jungle with no runes and will try Kennen first! If that doesn't work I will try someone else and get back to this comment when I find success.

Edit: I decided to test this by myself, so this is without leash. Kennen fails to get three camps. Singed fails to get three camps. Jax is fine. Teemo works. Anivia doesn't. Malzahar is fantastic. I think I am done now, unless there are suggestions.

DisasterSolaMar 11, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron of Bread,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kZLly364,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-03-11T00:00:12.614+0000)

Challenge accepted! I shall jungle with no runes and will try Kennen first! If that doesn't work I will try someone else and get back to this comment when I find success.

Heavy sustain/damage/damage mitigation champs work best. with no runes. Aoe damage specifically; its why skarner, amumu, and WW were some of the easiest junglers to start with.

SammystormMar 11, 20151 votes

yet you can still jungle with just about any champ it just takes some practice and a different mind set then what is used for other junglers.

DisasterSolaMar 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

yet you can still jungle with just about any champ it just takes some practice and a different mind set then what is used for other junglers.

... you realize that being a jungler means you have to; A) Clear camps relatively quickly B) Clear many camps relatively quickly C) Have viable ganks D) Have mostly successful ganks

with the current jungle, unless you spent UPWARDS OF 10K IP ON RUNES, its absurdly difficult to jungle with anyone who wasnt intended as a fighter jungler/sustain jungler/AoE jungler from the start. Its not about "a different mind set" or that its "just different". Its not viable to CHOOSE a jungler like malzahar or yorick any more. your clear times are to low to keep up even with a fighter/sustain/AoE jungler and because of the EXP, which by the way FORCES junglers to gank early and often -cutting out almost all post-6 junglers- anyone with slow clear times for most of pre-six will get shat on because they just dont clear fast enough to level at a decent rate.

theres maybe 10 junglers who thrive in the current jungle competitively. theres maybe another 10 who work well in solo queue.
thats 20 out of about a hundred champions who could potentially jungle. Champions who COULD jungle in the last season.

BiffoloMar 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

... you realize that being a jungler means you have to; A) Clear camps relatively quickly B) Clear many camps relatively quickly C) Have viable ganks D) Have mostly successful ganks

with the current jungle, unless you spent UPWARDS OF 10K IP ON RUNES, its absurdly difficult to jungle with anyone who wasnt intended as a fighter jungler/sustain jungler/AoE jungler from the start. Its not about "a different mind set" or that its "just different". Its not viable to CHOOSE a jungler like malzahar or yorick any more. your clear times are to low to keep up even with a fighter/sustain/AoE jungler and because of the EXP, which by the way FORCES junglers to gank early and often -cutting out almost all post-6 junglers- anyone with slow clear times for most of pre-six will get shat on because they just dont clear fast enough to level at a decent rate.

theres maybe 10 junglers who thrive in the current jungle competitively. theres maybe another 10 who work well in solo queue.
thats 20 out of about a hundred champions who could potentially jungle. Champions who COULD jungle in the last season.

Then just dont pick stupid things like sona jungle and you will be fine. Not super difficult to just play what is strong and roll with it.

DisasterSolaMar 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Then just dont pick stupid things like sona jungle and you will be fine. Not super difficult to just play what is strong and roll with it.

Are you silly? Have you never heard of jungle diversity? Have you never considered that some people DONT LIKE sucking the meta's balls?

In the last season, malzahar was a stupid strong post-six jungler. After he got some AP and a spirit stone (which could be gotten by maybe 6 minutes. 10 minutes more often) he had great clear times that more than made up for his slow start.

In the current jungle, you simply CANNOT take champions who did well in the jungle in S4 but werent designed for it into the jungle. they fail, extremely hard. Especially as a player who hasnt yet ponied up to buy runes.

Also, before the re-work, sona jungle was actually a thing. And it was relatively fun depending on if you could snowball.

BiffoloMar 12, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Are you silly? Have you never heard of jungle diversity? Have you never considered that some people DONT LIKE sucking the meta's balls?

In the last season, malzahar was a stupid strong post-six jungler. After he got some AP and a spirit stone (which could be gotten by maybe 6 minutes. 10 minutes more often) he had great clear times that more than made up for his slow start.

In the current jungle, you simply CANNOT take champions who did well in the jungle in S4 but werent designed for it into the jungle. they fail, extremely hard. Especially as a player who hasnt yet ponied up to buy runes.

Also, before the re-work, sona jungle was actually a thing. And it was relatively fun depending on if you could snowball.

I know sona jungle used to be a thing. Over half of my games played are as sona across accounts. Ive played her everywhere except for adc because thats just unreasonable. But I mean, you said it yourself. Champions who weren't designed for the jungle have a hard time jungling. That... kind of makes sense no? Playing a champ outside of their role they were designed for is going to have some SERIOUS drawbacks. It's the nature of having champs that specialize in things. Im in the mindset that having everyone able to jungle was kind of dumb. Sona should NOT be able to jungle, nor anivia, nor jayce and so on and so forth.

SammystormMar 12, 20151 votes

A) The reason most people don't clear well jungleing off meta champs is either because they try to do the same route the top junglers do or they are playing a champion that probably shouldn't be jungling in the first place.

B) If anything the smite on a charge system has buffed the clear times of off meta junglers. Especially item 3713 , this item basically lets any one jungle as long as you can survive the first clear which isn't terrible hard to do. Unless of course you try to start gromp or krugs when you really shouldn't.

C) This is a problem with individual champions however riot made it so that even weak gankers can do well with item 3706 .

D) With Stalkers blade even champs with rough ganks can gank now. Champs with utility loaded kits are still going to gank better but now basically every champ can gank.

Spending 10k on runes is not new. You have to do that for every role to play it optimally. However this is mitigated by the overlap of runes. However you do not by any means need any runes to jungle. It just makes it a lot easier.

I personally haven't ever seen jungle malzahar but I imagine he clears quite well with his voidlings. You just probably can't start gromps or krugs. Yorick I know for a fact can still jungle and since he has pretty decent aoe and early damage I imagine he clears about the same as most.

You do know that the jungle grants massive exp for killing a jungle mob well under leveled. I have literally gained a level and a half off of red buff before. This makes it so jungle is literally the hardest lane to shut down. So yes you are correct that right now the jungle promotes early ganking but not because of bad exp in the jungle but because it is much easier to regain the levels lost spent ganking by clearing the jungle later.

Why are you playing a champion that require post 6 to gank well but has terrible clear speed? I mean lets be honest every season's jungle changes allow certain champions to clear faster or more efficiently then others however, just like every role, certain champions can perform better then others in that role. Malzahar is a better mid laner because of his amazing wave clear and how hard he scales on levels. You literally can do everything jungle malzahar can do but better from mid lane. So I honestly do not see the problem here. I mean having roles that specific types of champions are best at is good. it means that when the average player picks up x champion they know roughly what to do with them. Their is still room to experiment and right now basically every champion can jungle which lets people like you experiment if you so choose which is also important.

20 champions is a lot and more diverse then most lanes. If we had 20 champions who work well in every role then we have 100 of the champions able to be played.

killd0zerMar 10, 20155 votes

Kotaku

ignored

TauNoob1Mar 10, 20154 votes

I strongly disagree with the direction they're trying to take the jungle in. If you don't want junglers to have an impact in lanes early game than that almost removes the point in them entirely. They obviously won't have any impact in lanes mid/late game since the laning phase ends and that means that if you DO want a lane advantage (something arguably more valuable that a jungler farming for 10-15 minutes) you'll need to have a 2nd support in another lane. If it turns out the way I think it will I wouldn't be surprised to see a huge shift to 2-1-2 laning soon.

Kuroi86Mar 10, 20151 votes

People have tried it, it gives mild success, don't expect it to replace the 1-1-1-2 format though, it's considered a giant waste of gold to not have a jungler.

Also, please note the context of what he said.

Our goal was to limit jungle early-game impact deciding lanes, which is not a popular view. But that’s a good decision and I still believe in that.

They don't want to eliminate it, but limit it. Last season mid lane was often decided by which jungler was able to pull off a successful gank first and snowball their lane. Some junglers would go so far as to camp mid for half the game to ensure that their mid laner was snowballed.

This also takes some of the wind out of the sails of bruiser junglers and could help open the door for tank, assassin and carry junglers to shine a bit more.

iLuvCasiopeiaR34Mar 11, 20153 votes

yeah it gives the impression that they want a farm simulator, no matter how bad you do it in the early, many games you just have to turtle up and the game can easily goto the 50 or + minutes mark and still have a grat chance to win

PhrixscreothMar 11, 20151 votes

I think you're both nailing and missing the point entirely. Based on this article, you're correct, removing early game jungler presence almost entirely eliminates having them on the team. In the article Morello agrees with you. He says they've failed (in part) BECAUSE they haven't given the jungler something else to do besides just ganking the lanes or farming the jungle.

BiffoloMar 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I strongly disagree with the direction they're trying to take the jungle in. If you don't want junglers to have an impact in lanes early game than that almost removes the point in them entirely. They obviously won't have any impact in lanes mid/late game since the laning phase ends and that means that if you DO want a lane advantage (something arguably more valuable that a jungler farming for 10-15 minutes) you'll need to have a 2nd support in another lane. If it turns out the way I think it will I wouldn't be surprised to see a huge shift to 2-1-2 laning soon.

They just dont want the jungle to be decided by level 3 ganks is all.

Kuroi86Mar 10, 20153 votes

The initial interview with Morello

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/balancing-an-esport-and-designing-the-jungle-an-in/1100-6425770/

Also, Morello's comments on the jungle in the interview.

So I think there are a few major issues to talk about. I'm still glad we went this direction in the jungle, but it just shows we have a lot more room to fix things. Our goal was to limit jungle early-game impact deciding lanes, which is not a popular view. But that's a good decision and I still believe in that. The problem is, we didn't return anything to the jungler. Like, a jungler scale. How do they perform well? If we say don't just dump on lanes and decide lines, what else are you giving us in return? And I think that's very valid. If you're going to remove our options, where's our new stuff?

And for several seasons, that continual reduction of jungler impact intentionally is geared towards trying to make the game something where lanes can have more of their own agency, and junglers have some impact but not the level of what we saw in season 2."

So, for one, I think that goal is correct. Two, I think we have not done a good job in providing new options and new depth and new ways to succeed in the jungle that are either exciting or understandable at all, or even available. Three, we missed one major thing that we planned on doing, and procedurally, I'm not actually sure why this happened, but it's something we'll have to talk about.

Lee Sin and Jarvan are still a problem. We can do anything we want to the jungle, and until we fix those champions, they're going to be a problem, which then limits additional diversity. Then we have a system that moves and does some different stuff -- how does that affect diversity? Well, some things we know and some things we don't. But the champions stay stable. So we can do anything we want to the jungle and you're going to pick Lee Sin almost every time unless we make it so that he can't jungle.

We have work to do on the champion side, so it's multifaceted. I think the complaints are very valid. I don't think the complaints are focused on the root cause of the problem, but that’s not the players' job so that's okay. What can we learn from that feedback is really the takeaway and what I’ve learned is that junglers are dissatisfied. Junglers aren't having a good time in the jungle and even if our original goal is good, it is not sufficient to just take that away. And there are additional champion problems that intersect with this and make it worse. That would be my takeaway from this.

Well, that shuts me up. I thought Lee Sin had been decidedly dethroned as king of the jungle. Apparently Riot thinks he needs to be brought down another peg. The question is, once they've done their testing on test servers, what is the next hit to be taken?

DaharahjMar 11, 20153 votes

Junglers shouldn't be able to gank lanes prior to five minutes at least, PERIOD.

Lee sin should get nerfed to unplayability until they can rework him, his kit has just too much of everything.

blubabbyMar 11, 20151 votes

I agree that Lee Sin is super versatile, but I'm not gonna comment on whether it's too much because I don't know enough to.

About the former statement though, this point is... why? Why not? I agree on someone like Lee Sin maybe the cost to gank pre 5 is probably way less than most I can think of, but there are a ton of these outliers. What is wrong or toxic about pre level 5 ganks? Most junglers can gank at level 2 and pretty much all can gank at level 4, this is a ~2:30 or ~4:15 gank. Early pressure is all junglers are good for mostly (some outliers), what's inherently wrong with them applying this pressure this early? Because not every jungler has access to it? So what? That's what makes the jungle interesting in my opinion. No one is on a level playing field but most junglers have some kind of redeeming quality that justifies their pick. LeeSin ? Extremely safe pick that has unrivaled build versatility and fallback options. and JarvanIV ? Strong ganks that can't be easily mitigated. Shaco ? Early ganking and map control. Nunu ? Punishing the enemy jungler and team for not keeping up vision.

All gutting early ganking will do is gimp the already struggling tank junglers (Stonewall knows way more than this, he talks about it a ton on his youtube channel) and make the early game less interesting now that the "surprise gank!" wildcard is gone.

The LasherMar 11, 20152 votes

Why do you guys always have to pick on Lee Sin? I mean the dudes blind for God's sake! I mean, It's rough just being unable to see 24/7 without you guys asking to beat him with bats of the nerf variety. I mean, what's the worst thing a blind guy can do? XD LeeSin

Le DauphinMar 11, 20152 votes

He's just pretending to be blind, the red cloth is pretty thin.

They should give him Rek'Sai vision permanently, with tremors and all :)

Ragnar42Mar 12, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Lasher,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kZLly364,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2015-03-11T13:29:36.617+0000)

Why do you guys always have to pick on Lee Sin? I mean the dudes blind for God's sake! I mean, It's rough just being unable to see 24/7 without you guys asking to beat him with bats of the nerf variety. I mean, what's the worst thing a blind guy can do? XD

For a Blind Man, he's kind of a dick. When Morello says that Lee Sin Shits on people, he's not kidding. Blind dude, running around, shitting on people. That's a problem man! It's not like you can be pissed for him shitting on you. He's blind, and what if you decide to try to fight back? You're either the asshole who got beat up by a Blind Guy who just shit on you, or you're the asshole who beat up some poor blind guy with a Feces Problem... It's lose lose for you man.