Feedback for snowball implementation in ARAM

Riotr Psxlol·5/3/2015, 5:31:43 PM·46 votes·23,721 views

I edited the post for clarity and to add links

Hello,

I'm here to create some discussion for snowballs in the ARAM space. I've been playing this game since post beta and started picking up ARAM the beginning of this year - it's one of my favorite game modes now :) I think most people would agree when I say ARAM has its ups and downs with certain champions, melee/fighters being one of the more painful options to play. I feel that snowballs are a great way to help these champions out (assuming this design wasn't just meant to add another mechanic to the ARAM space), but I also think there needs to be more refinement. I've looked through the boards and have seen some of the frustration other players have been voicing and I'd like to create some discussion around this mechanic to hopefully help guide the tuning or at least bring up awareness of why it is problematic in its current state.

My goal here is to generate some discussion and see how others feel about snowballs. Keep in mind that I am not one of the game designers/balancers, but would like to have a healthy discussion around the subject with you all. If snowballs are breaking the game, what ways would you shape it to make it a better spell? I'd like to give my thoughts and see what your thoughts are in terms of shaping the spell, context currently being that it is a spell designed to help champions engage.

Here are some links from the thread that I found insightful:

Analysis from Mandaari

Megathread that I should've looked for before I posted here (d'oh)

Right now, the way I see it, ranged champions will take this skill just to spam - dealing true damage in a space where B healing is disabled (most frustrating for the early game). There is a very low risk associated with the damage that it deals on impact. There is also a very high reward for landing it - you have the choice to teleport right next to the champion without needing to expend flash or any long long CD - most beneficial to those who have skills that specifically rely on one's ability to take risks and get close to make a stronger impact.

What are your thoughts?

224 Comments

Garlyle Wilds5/3/2015, 5:57:18 PM57 votes

I think the damage is the issue.

If it's capable of outputting damage and acting as an engage - especially on such short cooldowns - it's powerful even without performing the engage. It is honestly crowding out other summoner spells at the moment, because even champs who don't need it for its main purpose (acting as an engagement tool) can use it for other purposes (oh look, another poke button!)

I would personally like to see it lose the damage entirely. Instead, feel free to offer something else for those who do need to engage (eg the defensive boost on landing). Let it be the summoner spell for that, rather than this multipurpose omnitool.

lightdragoon885/3/2015, 8:21:43 PM53 votes

I want to post what Ice Weasel X said in another thread

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/hv64q62O-why-are-so-many-people-complaining-about-markdash?comment=0026

[{quoted}](name=Ice Weasel X,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hv64q62O,comment-id=0026,timestamp=2015-05-01T03:18:27.089+0000)

From what I've seen, the majority of people who are strong advocates of the current Mark/Dash are those who play ARAM primarily for a change of pace from Summoner's Rift. The majority of people who absolutely loathe Mark/Dash are those who play ARAM very frequently. There are outliers, of course.

I've long since switched from Summoner's Rift to Howling Abyss as a primary game mode. I'm not an ARAM smurf. While I rarely play normals anymore, I don't have my champion list customized for ARAM exploitation. I don't own Ziggs (don't think I've ever played him, actually; I trade him every time free rotation gives him to me for the novelty of never using him), Jayce, Caitlyn, Heimerdinger, Ezreal, Kog'Maw, Zyra, Amumu, Karthus, Xerath, Nidalee, Corki, or several other "must have" ARAM champs. The cheese tier champs I do have were from my days of learning how to play on Summoner's Rift - Sona, Fiddlesticks, Ashe, Annie (I don't even like her, and end up with her too often), Katarina, Leona, Nami, Morgana, Teemo. It's probably a bit obvious that my favorite normal role is support. I don't own many champs that aren't considered viable supports.

Some of my favorite aspects of ARAM:

  • Random selection of champions can heavily unbalance the matchup. In any discussion about ARAM "balance," I've always been a proponent of keeping it imbalanced, regardless of whether that benefits or hinders any individual game. The people who complain the hardest about "always" getting a bad comp typically just forget that they have also had overpowered comps. This is a similar phenomenon to what Lyte has addressed with people primarily remembering their bad games and forgetting that they have had just as many (or more) neutral or positive games.
  • If we've got an advantage, cool. Blow 'em up. If we still get torn up, kudos for the other team.
  • If we've got the melee comp vs. the Sona/Zyra/Heimerdinger/Teemo/Katarina team, cool. We'll probably get eaten, but I'm not going down without a fight.
  • If the teams have pretty fair comps, cool. Games ending with neither Nexus at full HP can be pretty exhilarating.
  • There was often enough time before the first fights started to fiddle with emotes at mid-bridge. I don't mean animation-canceling emote spam. I'm talking about that semi-spontaneous dance party or /joke exhibition that occurred in view of both teams. This didn't always happen, but it was pretty common.
  • You could usually take a breather to type if both teams had separated. Global ults were the exception to this.
  • Full builds happened more frequently than on Summoner's Rift.
  • Unlike Summoner's Rift, there's not really a laning phase in Howling Abyss. You either hop right into teamfights or hug the turret until 6 to launch an ult-reliant assault. You're still farming a little, but the limited minions aren't the primary source of gold due to map-specific gold generation and teamfights. Ganks aren't a thing.
  • Unlike Summoner's Rift, your actions in fights are visible to everyone without having to scan the map. Obviously, people still play the blame game, but it's a lot more obvious when someone's being falsely accused.

How Mark/Dash has changed things:

  • There is no breathing room.
    • That mid-bridge goofing off? That doesn't happen anymore. Snowballs start flying as soon as you get past your outer turret.
    • There's too much shit in the air, constantly.
    • "Just dodge the snowball." Yeah, no. If 5 enemies throw their snowballs simultaneously, someone's getting hit. If they space out their snowballs, that's not 4 seconds of clear air. It's not like the snowballs are the only things flying. That's 5 additional enemy projectiles in the air.
    • I'm one of those people with a propensity to lose sight of objects on the screen. Where's my pointer? Where's my champ? If both teams are throwing snowballs, that's 10 additional objects obscuring my focus every 20 seconds.
    • If everyone dashes, that can be more than 20 additional objects flying across the screen every 20 seconds
    • Think it's safe to type a message because you're far behind your team? Nope. Don't stop to type. You'll get hit and possibly jumped as a followup.
  • Teams can snowball (seriously...) harder than before. The constant long range true damage barrage from 5 sources means a team with an early advantage can keep that advantage by not allowing the weaker team to recover. Both teams have snowballs? If one team is over 50% HP per player and the other is below 25%, guess who is more likely to land hits? It's the team that isn't being zoned. I was in a game where my team did this to the other team, resulting in an early tower because they couldn't get close enough to it to defend. > * Howling Abyss now revolves more around a Summoner Spell than champion differences.

I've seen people argue that people who don't like Mark/Dash should just not take it. That's not much of an option. Forgoing Mark/Dash means that I'm giving the other team a ranged true damage advantage over me.

Most melee champs have some sort of gap closer. Leona is a strong tank whose gap closer is only 875 range. Amumu's range is 1100. Nobody's arguing that they need help in the gap closing department. Why is Mark's range 2500? The fact that Mark has a longer range than all non-ult abilities doesn't just make melee champs able to dive where they previously couldn't. It lets ranged champs apply true damage where they previously couldn't.

What was previously a fun mode is now a stressful one. High stress modes are fun, but are best suited to temporary exposure (e.g., URF). I don't play ARAM for stress.

Hypothetical situation (I don't have the numbers to prove this, just offering this as something to consider)

Given the following player groups:

  • Group 1: Summoner's Rift mains who play ARAM 1-5 times a week
  • Group 2: ARAM mains who play ARAM 20+ times a week

Would it be healthier for the game mode to keep a feature that Group 1 felt made the mode "incredibly fun" even though they still only played a few games weekly if the majority of Group 2 felt it ruined the mode for them?

msGreenleaf5/3/2015, 8:05:42 PM38 votes

The Mark/Dash addition to the ARAM map has completely ruined the game mode for me. The spell is broken on so many levels, and changes the dynamic of the mode so that it's not enjoyable anymore. ARAM used to be about posturing and preparing for a fight, getting off the right combo, or getting a catch. It was like the best moments of SR but in a neat little package you could enjoy for ~20 minutes in your downtime. Mark/Dash has removed all strategy and skill from the mode and turned it into a joke like URF or Poro King, which are great, for about two or three days once a year when they come out. This summoner does NOT belong on a permanent game mode.

It's not about simply dodging the snowballs either, so that's not a relevant argument. Even the best of players can't be expected to dodge 5 snowballs every 20 seconds while still dancing around 5 champions skillshots. And as for fixing "ARAM only accounts", this doesn't do it. I think people really overestimate how many ARAM only accounts exist, and how they impact the games even if you do get queued up with or against them. So the enemy team gets Master Yi, that sucks! But you could still outplay him, CC him, but now you're playing against Master Yi with extra poke, an extra gap closer, and an extra escape. This will only make the ARAM only account problem worse. And if you don't believe that, then people can just as well start making new ARAM onlys with just tanks and bruisers on them. If anything, it's made the problem worse.

Yeah, before maybe you would get shafted with a crap team comp against a God Mode comp. The fun was in still trying to beat them or outplay them with what you had, and hone your skills. With Mark/Dash, it's just become absolutely impossible for some champs to function. A team comp which, a week ago, would have been considered decent, just gets shredded in ten minutes because they are constantly being dove between their turrets by tanks or bruisers, or a champ with an aoe ult. And what really sucks is, THESE CHAMPS WERE ALREADY STRONG BEFORE.

I don't feel like there were many champions who were just completely garbage on the map before, and maybe Mark/Dash makes them feel more useful or viable now, but I really don't think a summoner spell this drastic was what we needed to aid those champions. We were already given two rerolls and the option to trade champions before. A spell that changes the whole dynamic? Absolutely unnecessary. I'd rather just get Eve and suffer through it then get Eve and have a snowball and just piledrive the game.

It's just not fun for either side. When I win, I want it to be because my team worked better together than the other. And getting a better team comp never meant that you just auto-won the game. Now it's just total chaos and it's unbearable to play against or with. And when it is on my own team, I feel like I just sit back and watch my teammates flying into the enemy team and just feed their hearts out.

Personally, I feel like the people who enjoy the snowball skill are just casual ARAM players, and won't stick around long enough to make it's insertion worth it. Others will find that it gets stale pretty fast, just like any other gimmick mode we've had, which is WHY they are temporary. People who are big fans of ARAM or play mostly ARAM will just feel like mode is ruined and either go back to Summoner's Rift or quit entirely. I'm sad to see a once great map ruined, and I really fear for how things will turn out over the next few weeks if Mark/Dash is not removed or SIGNIFICANTLY nerfed. I think the Mark/Dash should either exist in it's own separate game mode, or not exist at all. At least give players the option of having to play on a map that allows or doesn't allow the spell. Don't force it on us. Do I take this seriously? Well yeah, it is a game I invest a lot of time in, and have had the best of times playing. That's not wrong either. People take SR just as seriously, so don't talk down to ARAM players and say "we're taking this game mode too seriously". The devs have repeatedly asked for our feedback, and we're giving them our honest opinions. I'm thankful for all the times I've had wonderful games and all that I have learned thanks to the dynamic of ARAM. I've definitely learn a lot about so many champions because of this mode, but if this is how it's going to be from now on, I guess it's time to graduate to SR, or just find a new game, because everything I loved about Howling Abyss is gone.

Ultimate Veigar5/3/2015, 8:18:44 PM30 votes

I have to be honest here, and I appreciate a developer coming to the threads to receive feedback on the new implementation. However, I have to admit that the addition of Mark/Dash was the absolute worst thing to do here! The mode is no longer fun. I have over 1500 games played in ARAM, and have barely touched the game again since this new ability was added. I have to take note of one of the main points you are making in your post.

"Don't get me wrong, I think Mark is a good addition to give melee a little help."

The issue here is that people who do not play ARAM, or play it regularly, have this ridiculous idea that melee need help in ARAM. Almost every champion has CC skills, whether they are a stun or a slow, or even a utility skill to speed themselves up. Many of the melee champions have gap closers. Akali Katarina MasterYi - 3 of the most op champions in aram, and guess what... they are melee! They have gap closers, and the ability to do a lot of burst damage once they enter a fight. They barely have any poke compared to some other champions like Ziggs or Xerath yet they still enter a game destroying the other team. However, I have played plenty of games against an Akali, Yi, Katarina and won them, sometimes even on a melee champion! And there are other times I had one or more of these OP champions on my team and we still lose.

The issue is not that melee champions are too weak in ARAM, they just need to be played properly, just like any other champion. One of my favorite champions to play in ARAM is Nunu and guess what, he's melee too! However, I have Ice Blast and Absolute Zero to slow the enemy down, as well as Bloodboil to speed myself up! I do not need a Mark/Dash to get into the fight if I play right and time my abilities at the proper time.

By adding the Mark/Dash ability, you are putting a band-aid over the ** false** assumption that Riot has designed these champions WRONG.

League of Legends is a skill and strategy based team game. Mark/Dash takes away any skill or strategy the team needs to accomplish the victory.

Melee Champions with gap closers: Aatrox Akali Alistar Amumu Blitzcrank with his grab Chogath if he lands the knockup Darius Elise Fiora Fizz Gnar Hecarim Irelia JarvanIV Jax Kassadin Katarina Khazix LeeSin Leona Malphite Maokai MasterYi Nasus whither Nautilus Nidalee Nocturne Nunu slow + speed boost Olaf Pantheon Poppy Rammus RekSai Renekton Rengar Riven Sejuani Shen Shyvana Sion Talon Tryndamere Vi Warwick MonkeyKing XinZhao Yasuo Zac Zed

That list is the majority of melee champions in this game, and they nearly all have some sort of gap closer already installed into their kit. Several of the melee not included in this list have their own personal speed boosts, or slows on the enemy champion.

I will state it again, the problem is not that melee are having any issues and need a gap closer. The problem is that people think poke comps win 100% of games, when in all honesty it takes the skill of each individual player to bring the team that victory.

Remove the ability from ARAM or create a new mode called "Snowball Fight" - this will cater to everyone, whether they like or dislike Mark/Dash. I just want my mode back!

Zielmann5/3/2015, 7:05:58 PM28 votes

My main concern is with the feel of the game mode. The addition of the spell has made it feel less like ARAM, and more like, well... some gimmicky featured game mode. Somebody else stated it well, in that the mode feels like the focus is now on a single summoner spell, rather than anything else. I'm sure the team can come up with a much better implementation of something to help the champs they're trying to help, while preserving the feel of ARAM as well.

But to be honest, if some major tweaks aren't coming soon, I'd like to see the spell temporarily removed while you guys actually figure out a good and healthy implementation for it.

thinningtheherds5/3/2015, 8:34:50 PM20 votes

get rid of this stupid item, it completely changes the dynamic of the game. why would have flash on such a high cooldown and this so low? not only is it a replacement for flash, but it does damage as well. lets just put a friggin poro king in there and change aram to poro king indefinitely? and seriously, its spring now, we dont need to look at any more snowballs

Mandaari5/3/2015, 7:01:23 PM18 votes

Hey Psxlol. It's nice to see that you're taking balancing Mark seriously, but it's a wasted effort. Like you said, Mark is trying to fix two problems: lack of engage and lack of safe poke for CC-less melee champions. For one, the poke component is massively abuse-able. it will either deal so little damage that it's not helpful or it will deal enough damage that it's used by everyone. If you tie it to the dash itself then it ceases to be safe.

As for lack of engage, I'll reiterate what I've said in many other threads. Lack of engage has never really been a problem except in the rare cases of all immobile melee vs CC comps. Those games are very rare and you shouldn't redefine the mechanics of a game to address that scenario. Usually it's comps composed of late game carries, melees that themselves need peel, or champions that have mechanics directly suited to SR that have the problem. Champions like Eve are weak for example because the flanking anti-ward stealth is pretty much useless on HA. The same applies to Rek'Sai's map awareness and global presence, Nunu and his objective controlling consume, etc. Other champions, like Akali, are weak because of the stealth items.

But what virtually all melee champions have in common is lack of wave clear and inability to push turrets. If your team is composed of late game champions like Jax then you're going to have a hard time making it to late game. You'll likely be pressured off your forward health relic and you won't be able to wave clear to keep your tower safe and stall. At the same time, if you win a fight you'll have a very hard time capitalizing on it by getting turret damage if anyone on their team is still alive. That's both because as melee you inherently have to walk into a less safe position to get damage down and because anyone left with wave clear can clear before you can even get in range. Range champions don't need to worry about either of those scenarios at anywhere near the level that melee champions do (this is also true of SR, which is why ADCs are a required component of teams).

What's more, no matter how much you nerf the CD or range or whatever on Mark CC tanks will always get more use out of it than the champions it was targeted toward in the first place. Look at Lolking or your own internal data. Virtually none of the champions the spell was targeted toward have shifted in win rate while already-strong tanks like Maokai have had their win rates skyrocket even more. Those champions benefit from another engage tool because it opens up their other CC tools. Melee champions like Akali still get blown up the second they Dash. If you want to add resistances for Dash then you're addressing a tankiness issue, not an engagement issue, and there are several other spells that already exist for that.

So please just take the damn spell out of the game and address the correct problems. If you want a more detailed explanation of what the actual problems are and ways to fix them then read the bottom part of this thread.

BTuna5/3/2015, 8:02:57 PM17 votes

Remove snowball.

Aram was never fair and will never be fair. Some people seems to forget what "AR" means. It means all random! All snowball has done has made certain champs VERY OP (alistair for one), thereby negating any perceived benefits to balance it may have achieved.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

junglerboy165/3/2015, 6:35:35 PM16 votes

Here's my 2 cents on the issue.

Mark as a spell has made the whole game mode much more hectic and much less strategic. The main reasons for this are:

  • it deals a lot of damage.
  • I can't block that damage by any means (no spell shield, projectile blocking, etc.).
  • It has a very long range.
  • it is hard to see the snowball clearly a lot of the time.
  • It is far too spammable.
  • It is basically a must use summoner on ARAM now, which has squashed diversity to flash+mark/dash.

To fix this excessive craziness it added, I'd suggest a few things:

  • slash the damage. This is a highly impactful mobility spell, the only reason it might need to do damage is to count it for assists or for drawing aggro.
  • I'm kind of ok with it being unblockable if the other changes I suggest were implemented.
  • The range is excessively long and makes turtling under tower VERY hard for many champions, making a losing game that much harder to come back from (it aggravates an already major issue essentially). to fix this, reducing it to about 1500 range (roughly the range between the two outer turrets) would make it much less oppressive for the losing team.
  • Improve the particles and visual clarity, because there is nothing more annoying that a white projectile on a white background hitting you when you could have easily sidestepped it if you could see it.
  • This is a summoner spell it is already free to cast, but it is far too spammable. increase the cooldown to more like 45-60 seconds and then have dashing to the champion marked reduce that amount down by 15-30 seconds. with it being as separable as it is right now, it makes ARAM feel utterly mindless.
  • If you implemented all of these changes, it might make it so it isn't the clear and obvious choice that you always need to take ( and also not suicide to try and play without it), which would alleviate the stranglehold it has on summoner spell diversity.
Fae Sorceress5/3/2015, 5:50:07 PM15 votes

In its current state, Snowball is.. bluntly put, overpowering. It's to the point where it is taking over the role of and overshadowing the other Summoner spells.

The main issue I have with it at the moment is the cooldown. Sure, it's easy to just dodge, but in the midst of a teamfight in the cramped Howling Abyss map.. someone is bound to get hit. Especially when you have 5 enemies spamming Snowballs (which deal TRUE DAMAGE) every 20 seconds. Compared to other Summoner Spells like Ignite (210s), Exhaust (210s), Heal (240s), Flash (300s), it is absolutely ridiculous, even being a blockable skillshot. If the cooldown was increased by even 10 seconds, that would be a 33% reduction in the amount of snowballs we see flying around.

A close second issue is the fact that the skill's range is ridiculously long. Decreasing that at least a little would be a welcome change.

I think the current plan to break down the damage dealt by Mark and Dash to a 25%/75% split is also in the right direction. Champions that traditionally would not benefit from dashing toward the enemy will now have less of an incentive to take the spell since the poke damage is reduced. With the above changes, perhaps instead of a 25%/75%, we could even give more power to the Dash portion to encourage it's use in engaging on a target. The idea of a temporary speed buff upon dashing would also be a good compensation buff for increasing cooldown and reducing range. This will give Mark/Dash a niche, instead of being an (almost) useful-in-all-situations kind of thing.

MasterVidallis5/5/2015, 3:40:20 PM13 votes

I just hate the addition, for me it ruined ARAM. I liked getting melee champs in ARAM including those with bad gap closers. It forced you to be patient, wait for the right moment. You know, PLAY THE GAME WELL, and learn from it. Yes if you get a champion that isn't as good at teamfights you'll have a harder time, but THAT'S FUN, it was a challenge, forced you to really push their kit. Don't really care if that gave them a lower win rate.

Now there is just way too much going on and the patience of timing engages has been replaced with constant projectile flinging and people with high threat close range kits popping on top of your team or right next to you when someone else got hit. The slower paced strategic ARAM I loved has been turned into what I can only describe as a clusterfuck. Played two matches after the changes and decided to not play it anymore.

Simmstur5/5/2015, 8:11:42 PM12 votes

I've now had a few days to mull this over, as well as read the thoughts of others. Here's what I think about the change:

First, I am extremely disappointed at how slapdash this feels. It seems like at no point did anyone ask any of the important design questions beyond "what can we do to mix up ARAM?" No one seemed to ask things like, "what problem are we actually trying to solve?" or "how many options do we have to fix this?" or, "what would be the consequences of making these changes beyond solving our problem?" This is why, I feel, we ended up with a mechanic lifted completely unaltered from a goofy game mode and placed into another game mode that, while not as competitive as ranked SR, was still taken quite seriously by many of its players.

This, I think is the first major problem: this new mechanic was the fundamental mechanic of the Poro King mode. When you ported it wholesale into ARAM, you then made it the fundamental mechanic of ARAM as well. ARAM was always defined by making strange team compositions work together using the mechanics of the champions, but with the introduction of the snowball it's become a snowball fight. Everything now is about dodging around the snowballs. Maybe it's just me, but a mode where the whole game revolves around a single universally available mechanic feels far more like a joke mode than the old ARAM ever did.

The second major problem is that this mechanic obviously wasn't play tested. Even if we discount its horrendous imbalance, the fact that you have to come back and do damage control with it shows me that no one fully thought about the consequences of the snowball's implementation. Now that we've all seen it in action, we all know how it changes the game. It does unnecessary damage at rate higher than Ignite, it has double the range of a Nidalee spear, it has a cooldown shorter than some regular champion abilities, it isn't blocked by spellshields and Windwall, and it can be used on minion waves just as easy as it can champions. It is almost pure reward for no risk - the only danger is when you actually take the dash. This is not balanced, because it was built for a temporary game mode and was never meant to be a part of anything else.

The third major issue is that it's still unclear on what problem this mechanic was supposed to fix. Was it supposed to make all those 40% win rate champions viable? Because it didn't. In Mandaari's excellent analysis, he shows that the problem with these champions is almost universally not their lack of engage, but rather the fact that the geography and terrain of HA isn't conducive to their strengths. I think the most obvious example is Rek'sai, who is all about multi-path mobility and jungle control. But, HA has only two directions and no jungle, so by no fault of her own Rek'sai is rendered bottom tier. Giving her the option of more engage isn't really going to change that, because this mechanic isn't just beneficial to her.

If the snowball was supposed to help out the bottom 5-10% win rate champions, why does it benefit 90%+ of the champion pool? The only champions that really don't benefit in any way are those with nothing but poke - Lux, Xerath, and Ziggs etc., and most ADCs. Every other champion would be five kinds of foolish not to take this ability because it's just too good. In effect, this ability does more to make good champions better (Alistar, Amumu, Galio, etc.) than it does to make bad champions good (Evelynn, Tryndamere, Udyr, etc.).

Bringing up poke champions, though, will inevitably lead to talks of ARAM-only accounts stacked with the high win rate champions. But this mechanic doesn't solve that problem either. Sure, it feels like karmic vengeance now, while those people with a large number of unlocked champions can drop Tibbers on a poke-heavy team by engaging from a screen and a half away, but there is nothing stopping those people those people who gamed the random champion mechanic from making a new account and unlocking only champions that are now the best with the snowball. At best, this change has only given people a temporary reprieve from ARAM smurfs. I would not be surprised in the slightest if we see a new wave of ARAM-tailored accounts crop up within a few weeks should this mechanic stay as it is.

And to be honest (and I'm trying not to belabour this point, but it is important), the lack of engage was not really the issue with the low win rate champions. The problem with a team of bruisers vs. a poke comp wasn't any problem with the champions or summoner spells or items (especially after the addition of Righteous Glory), but rather with the patience of the players. ARAM used to have this really neat 'race against time' dynamic when a team of tanks met a team of poke. The poke team needed to win before about the 15-17 minute mark before the tanks got too strong, and the tanks needed to survive until then. The problem is that at lower MMRs, players don't have the patience or game sense to play safe and smart until they were strong enough to take a team fight. Now, the tanks just start diving at level 6 because they can just bypass the poke.

That's not to say there weren't difficulties. Mandaari has already pointed out the problems with waveclear and tower siege with melee champions, and there is still the issue that certain champions simply won't be good due to the map geography. But these issues could be solved in much more nuanced and appropriate ways. The suggestions that Mandaari made are all good, and all address specific problems, rather than the vague feeling that 'melee champions are bad'. But the addition of this mark really did feel like trying to use a snow shovel to eat your ice cream: a spoon would have done much better, and it wouldn't have been so intrusive and unbalanced.

So, what would I do with the snowball? Personally, I think it should be at least temporarily removed. If it's something many others think is worth having, then it needs a hefty rework and a proper testing period. That said, I'd still rather the problem be fixed by tweaking mechanics already in place rather than adding an entirely new one. And most of all, any solution, should have a clear purpose. If the goal really is to make champions like Udyr viable, then the change should be beneficial specifically to them, and shouldn't be abuse-able by champions who didn't need the help.

ChaoticPinecone5/3/2015, 9:59:35 PM12 votes

I have 854 wins on ARAM.

i loved ARAM, and credit it for my teamfighting capabilities. i suck in lane, but once teamfights roll around, i generally do pretty well. ARAM teaches you how to play in full 5v5 teamfights with different types of champions. the snowball changed the dynamic of the game mode. its no longer "they have poke, but we can wait for 6 to get hard engage and win. but only as long as we dont feed early". Or "we both have poke - lets fast push to turret so they waste all their mana and abilities clearing waves while we poke them down". there is no "lets play super far back for 30 seconds until our wombo is back up". the entire strategy of ARAM is gone, and essentially turned into the Poro King - a special mode that you play a couple times just for the experience, but never want to play again. ARAM used to be my go-to game mode.

i found that games last so much longer. if youre a long range mage or ADC, you could do damage from a distance in the past. now, the tank doesnt even need to hit you with a snowball, just someone around you, to be right in your face. its near impossible to kite effectively. its frustrating that i can dodge a snowball when low on health, but the teammate standing next to be is just a good a carrier to get to me. and i found that people are more willing to surrender than actually play the game out. in old aram, even if it was one sided, it ended quickly so people werent as willing (or didnt ahve the opportunity) to surrender.

and it makes many champions, who were already pretty good on ARAM, just ridiculous to play agasint. Alistar Fiddlesticks MonkeyKing Blitzcrank Karthus. it does little for those who already did little Udyr Elise . sure, you have a solution to the kite. then what? snowball into five of them and die? 1v1 champions dont do much in a teamfight setting, even with the snowball.

now, more than ever, ARAM is decided at champion select.

AstrallyMundane5/5/2015, 9:32:01 PM11 votes

I saw a volibear get a pentakill with mark/dash the other day. It's broken, broke the game mode, made it into something entirely different.

Vistha Kai5/10/2015, 8:39:17 AM10 votes

My thoughts are that I'm never going to play ARAM again.

Maikal5/3/2015, 8:54:43 PM10 votes

I dislike it.

Don't have the time to read your entire post right now sorry.

Linna Excel5/3/2015, 5:48:03 PM10 votes

My take

I'm fine with spammable snowballs without the dash. I'm fine with dash/mark without it being spammable. Its the combination of the two that is the problem.

Don't get me wrong, I think Mark is a good addition to give melee a little help,

There are people who disagree with you. This is a good thread by someone in a higher ELO about why dash/mark doesn't help the problem champs of aram. Most low win rate melee champs don't need the hard engage as they already have it in their kits. The problem is melees either don't take aram seriously or they don't have as many options to deal with an all-poke team despite having that mobility IN THEIR KITS EVEN WITHOUT DASH/MARK. The lack of mobility isn't the problem. The problem is my all melee team is getting poked down before we have the opportunity to all in.

tehnoodles5/10/2015, 7:34:45 PM10 votes

The only reason I even still login to this game anymore was to play a few ARAM. Mark/Dash has completely ruined the experience.

Doesn't matter how well you play around skills, positioning, cooldowns.. someone just lands a snowball, doesnt matter.

Doesnt even have to hit you... just someone or a creep near you and now they are on top of you.

Oh and you better hope they dont have a regular engage, because now the just closed a 2500 range gap, and now can jump right on you.

Remove this Summoner please.

The fact that 8/10 players are using Mark/Flash should tell you something isnt right.

Maechen5/8/2015, 3:22:20 PM10 votes

I left this game 2 or 3 years ago, because I had enough of summoner's rift and I was not interested in Dominion. I came back 2 or 3 months ago and discovered the Howling Abyss and I immediatly enjoyed it. You directly enter into action, instead of useless crop farming during minutes and minutes like in summoner's rift. If you have a bad team, well the game ends quickly, and the games are not lasting 45 minutes or 1 hour which is something important for me.

I even bought skins because I enjoyed the game once again.

And then, you brought that summoner's spell, with a broken cd, a broken range, damages outranging all of the other summoner's spells, making bushes completely useless. It totally ruined the Howling Abyss to me. The only ones enjoying the change are the ones that play this mode very occasionally. But for the ones playing in this mode only, to avoid the long time and the useless crop farm that requires the summoner's rift, it has become a pure nightmare.

I've uninstalled the game because I just don't have any fun in Howling Abyss, and I'm not interest in Summoner's Rift anymore.

The only thing that would make me come back is if that spell is completely removed, or if you bring back the poro game to make it a separate mode.

Kikirino5/3/2015, 7:55:07 PM9 votes

I don't really care what is done to the ability as long as it is no longer a common choice on every champion.

It should really only be good as a pick on someone with no form of engage. I hate it being basically a second flash taken by everyone.

Lundivar5/9/2015, 4:45:55 AM9 votes

Thread is long, I'll keep it short.

I basically only play ARAM games now, and strongly, strongly dislike the snowballs. If it's a big deal, please make 2 Aram modes then, one with, and one without the things. It's ruining the last mode I still play actively in LoL for me.

Ice Weasel X5/4/2015, 3:39:51 AM9 votes

So... the intent was to toss a bone to melee champs, right? If that's the case, why not make it a spell that's only really appealing to melee champs?

Scale it inversely proportional to each champion's auto-attack range. Unmodified melee range is 125-175. Since the focus is on melee, we'll consider them equal (even though the upper end melee champs almost all have strong gap closers). The maximum unmodified range is 650. The difference is 475. Start at full value, and drop by 1% every 4.75 range increase. For champions whose ranges change, change the spell's effectiveness accordingly.

Inverse scaling multiplier for the 175-650 scope: 1 - ( (Champion AA Range - 175) / 475) Reference for champion ranges: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Range#Chart

  • Mark Damage
  • 175 AA range or below: [20 + (10 x champion level)] = 30 to 200 damage (Max damage is the same as release damage)
  • Greater than 175 AA range: [20 + ( (10 x champion level) x (1 - ( (Champion AA Range - 175) / 475) ) )] (only scaling damage is decreased by range)
    • 200 AA range: 20 + (94.7% of scaling damage) = 29.47 to 190.46 damage
    • 325 AA range: 20 + (68.4% of scaling damage) = 26.84 to 143.12 damage
    • 450 AA range: 20 + (42.1% of scaling damage) = 24.21 to 95.78 damage
    • 600 AA range: 20 + (10.5% of scaling damage) = 21.05 to 38.9 damage
    • 650+ AA range: 20 + (0% of scaling damage) = 20 damage
  • Mark Range
  • 175 AA range or below: 1500 Mark range (max value is more than twice as long as any AA except for Twitch's ult, and equal to Nidalee's spear range)
  • Greater than 175 AA range: [175 + (1325 x (1 - ( (Champion AA Range - 175) / 475) ) )] (Mark range cannot be decreased below 175; arbitrary value for illustration)
    • 200 AA range: 175 + (94.7% of scaling range) = 1429.775 Mark range
    • 325 AA range: 175 + (68.4% of scaling range) = 1081.3 Mark range
    • 450 AA range: 175 + (42.1% of scaling range) = 732.825 Mark range
    • 600 AA range: 175 + (10.5% of scaling range) = 314.125 Mark range
    • 650+ AA range: 175 + (0% of scaling range) = 175 Mark range
  • Mark Cooldown: I don't think cooldowns need to be adjusted by champion. I do like the idea of longer cooldowns, but I think investigating variable utility is a feasible way of facilitating the stated purpose of the summoner spell. Other people probably have a better handle on good cooldown recommendations. I just get a headache seeing the snowball spam. Making it unattractive to some champions and keeping it strong on others might be enough to cut down on that. *shrug*

With a change like this, long range champions would still be able to use Mark, but it wouldn't be as attractive. Caitlyn's snowballs would be capped at 20 damage, whereas Evelynn could still lob a 200 damage rock covered in snow. I'm not going to push for complete removal of damage since one of the reasons cited for the spell's release was to give low range champions a chance to poke too. Ranged champions wouldn't completely lose the ability to use it, but they wouldn't get full use out of it due to diminished damage and range. It'd just be a slap tossed at close range for them, encouraging them to choose a different spell, but without the spell being completely disabled. Kayle could sling full effect snowballs until she triggered her E, at which point she'd be penalized by about -75% on the scaling portions of Mark. Rengar would lose the range and damage with Unseen Predator active, but that's a gap closer. He'd regain full Mark power after it's gone.

TL;DR

By scaling the damage and range down as champion AA range goes up, it will no longer be a skill chosen by ranged poke champs to spam longer range damage. Taking the max range to 1500 still lets melee champs have some unmitigated poke with a longer reach than ranged AAs which is still in line with regular skills.

To those who claim that opponents of Mark/Dash are salty because we want to cling to a poke vs. melee comp, how does your argument hold up against this? This keeps the ability strong for melee champs and reduces/removes the problem of ranged champs spamming snowballs alongside their existing ranged abilities.

chiqun5/4/2015, 12:20:50 AM9 votes

The very essence of ARAM is its randomness. Not just in champion select, but also in player skill and game results. You can have the weirdest team comp, but with good teamwork and timing, you can make it happen. I've been in teams where I thought, "So much poke, this could be an easy win," but get steamrolled because the other team knew how to build and play against us. Melee people say they can never do anything... but that's why you have your team mates. They poke down for you to go in. If they can't do their job, then clearly it will be hard for you to do yours'. Even if you used Mark/Dash, if your team does not have fast enough reaction time to go in and help, what's the point? You'll just be a sacrifice.

What I prefer, is that the spell be removed. If not, take out the damage, lower the range, and increase the cooldown. It should be a tool that needs to be used wisely, just like any other summoner spell. I noticed that pentakills/aces are becoming more common. I also noticed that the "laning phase" is pretty much gone, because everyone is going ham throwing snowballs and dashing in right from the beginning. Squishy ADC's can't build this way, and it renders them useless. This does not sound any more balanced to me.

Lundivar5/14/2015, 10:42:09 PM8 votes

Ugh, snowballs not removed in patch 5.9... :(

FaRmErX5/5/2015, 1:53:44 AM8 votes

make a seperate queue for the old aram and the snowball one can be called aram+.. and let the people decide

Spoo5/10/2015, 12:08:03 AM8 votes

I am probably one of those posing the most frustration for this mechanic around a lot of the blogs. It is my sincere hope that if not removed its a least tailored down. At its current state, I think we can all agree that certain champions now are almost auto wins. (Amumu, Galio). I have no problems with meta shifts when items change or champions get tweaked. But this new summoner has made ARAM almost no fun to play. It goes against the very spirit of ARAM itself. ARAM meant using random mechancis to work together to win. Here everyone just uses the same one. If I wanted all for one lee sin I would be on a different thread asking for AFO back. I thought diversity was Riots big message for this season. But everyone playing like Lee Sin to me is not diversity. It is not fun. Why should I want to do nearly the same thing every game. Finally, games with somewhat balanced comps that could be fun and won with patience and knowledge of power spikes are now no longer possible. There are champions now that could have been played around before but now pretty much spell out victory as theres no way to counter the raw engage.

Here have been some of my thoughts over the course of my ravings as to the problem with the summoner. Not necessarily in order of importance. I will try to group them up by varying problem. Afterwards I will offer some possible alleviation to the problems.

**Summoner Visual Problems

  • The projectile range is rather long. Meaning you don't have to be close enough to risk anyone poking in order to land it. Because I can't land any poke I can't use a poke champion to at least discourage anyone from following up.

  • The projectile itself is hard to see on a white map as is. (Would be nice for something as backbreaking as this to be as visual as a Morgana binding.

  • The projectile size fits between minion waves.

**Summoner Playstyle Problems *** The summoner is on a crazy short cooldown 1 per 4 seconds if the whole enemy team has it. This makes it hard to reasonably farm as an ADC and turns ARAM map into a game of Frogger for anyone squishy enough not to be able to counter the person jumping in. With everyone capable of jumping in.. there is no longer the patience for good engages meaning ADC's or late game champions that rely on auto attacks and crits don't have the time to actually build up to usefulness.

  • The summoner works on a minion. I'm losing because of my minions position.. not mine. Meaning my positioning doesn't matter. This is fine for 5ish in 120 champions but not for every single one of them.

  • Because everyone can engage on a minion or an ally, its impossible to build a tank that can reasonably keep their back line safe.

  • Once used, there is no time to take advantage of a missed projectile. Afterall, its up 20 seconds later. I can't rely on a downtime to go and push turret because my opposite number didn't take the time to aim. At least with a missed flash I could count on this.

  • The summoner is obscenely hard to counter once hit. I can't counter this ability with cleanse to get rid of the mark or qss it (if say im an ADC and I noticed I'm tagged by an Assassin). Meaning I can only rely on timely flashes as the only defense to the summoner. Flash too soon and get followed. Flash too late and you could be dead. Even if I had cleanse the cooldown is nowhere near low enough now to counter the heavy engage.

  • The only good defense to this summoner is Zhonya's which favors which favors AP champions... the champions that are already able to abuse this mechanic burst and get out. AD's are just seemingly out of luck.

  • It is obscenely easy to hit someone ...delete them then zhonya. At the worst case, there low health. Since backing isn't an issue in HA that only sets this up for the team to fail since they can't count on the last member.

  • The item favors champions with huge AOE mechanics and heavy burst. Meaning it is now more optimal for champions like amumu to actually build full ap .. take a good ult. Die and let my team take care of the remaining health advantage. That or Talon hits and burst out two nearby squishies with a Ravenous Hydra/Youumus creating an instant 3v5 and the team just loses because of it. Meanwhile AD's have to wait for their damage so its not as advantageous for them. Those champions with resets are also crazier as they don't have to waste their flash to initiate. Instead they can use it to just follow up kills.

  • The Mark/Dash summoner is now the ultimate win condition.. flash is now a win more summoner. (meaning the lack of overall risk of this summoner is a problem) The problem I have with its such short cooldown is that certain comps just wait for this mechanic every time to engage. Meaning they don't have to get close enough to challenge anything to win the game. (IE there is no need to challenge anything.)

  • Because everyone can engage... why would I ever build boots if I'm a burst champ if I already have an engage utility???

  • This summoner is the complete no risk all reward version of flash... and has completely removed the need for a health summoner.

  • 20-30 Second death timers don't mean anything when you don't have to walk all the way back up in lane.

  • The new summoner with its no risk all reward only helps the team thats already in the lead. That meaning, if your behind there is no coming back like there used to be. Example... good engage on an assassin means a 5v4/ 5v3 team fight which is an auto win. As is you can either die to turret afterwards which awards no gold. Then just rinse and repeat. Meaning overtime your team won't even be able to contest for gold.

  • Finally, and most importantly, the summoner has changed the very nature of the game. Its no longer a game of understanding your champion how it works with what you got and communicating. There is no being patient to build up to power spikes. The opposing team has complete control over when to abuse your lack of damage from level 1. ARAM has turned away from a team game to a game of solo plays. Which I feel shoulldn't be focus of any 5v5 format.

Notice that I don't think the damage is relatively the problem. My issue is more the guaranteed level of follow up with the no risk.

Some of the possible solutions to the problems.

  • Increase the duration to be reasonable maybe 1 minute. At least then its only dodging 1 per 12 seconds and not once per 4. There's time to push between a wave.

  • Remove the summoner altogether. If you want to add more engage instead put flash on a 30 second cooldown. At least this mechanic offers reasonable counterplay for everyone and there's a sizable risk to bad engages.

  • Remove the cooldown and instead make something on the map that has to be challenged in order to use this ability. For instance allow someone to use this once after picking up a health pack already on the map. Or vice versa have it work something like Bard's where there contestable by both sides. At least then there is some prerisk to this ability.

  • Make this ability cost health. If you abuse it your killing yourself.

  • Make a similar defensive summoner that works as a Sivir shield on the same cooldown to block the initial mark.

  • Disable this ability till level 6. So teams at least have time to build

  • Add the ability to back on Howling Abyss and heal... this lets melee and non-poke actually back and build and not transfer kill gold on the suicide attempt

AMYS GRAVE5/7/2015, 3:55:21 PM7 votes

It was fun for a short time but its getting old fast. I used to play ARAM to practice my teamfighting and build paths, but now the teamfighting aspect has gone to hell. Zed can snowball, and if it hits drop his w, follow the snowball, eq, return to his w shadow across the map, and you had ~100ms (read as average ping) to try to react and cc him. Other champions with dashes get this same harass pattern and it has removed any thought into them using their mobility.

Chitterling5/13/2015, 8:01:40 PM7 votes

My reaction to the implementation of Mark/Dash was pretty visceral.

I've played over 2000 ARAM games. As a sufferer of GAD, I've always been the type of person to partake in less stress-inducing modes of gameplay. The toxicity and constant need to "prove yourself" in summoner's rift was just not going to work for me, so I eventually moved on to Dominion and ultimately ended up as an ARAM-only account. That's not to say I have a stacked arsenal of champions in any sense as I have a wide array and enjoy finding ways to make them work in ARAM (Tank Evelynn has been a surprising success story for me as of late).

When Poro King was implemented, I enjoyed it for what it was-- a fleeting experience that was fun in the moment but couldn't truly be taken seriously. It was just too chaotic of a game mode, and I was glad to see it go.

By adding snowballs to ARAM, you have essentially made it into Poro King without any of the bells and whistles. Suddenly, strategy is thrown out the window for snowballs which add too many components to an already intricate playing experience.

Too much chaos is a bad thing!

Another issue that others have touched on is that Mark/Dash doesn't actually accomplish what was intended. It hasn't really helped typically weak ARAM champions in the mode at all. It has just made certain champions (namely tanks with engage) impossible to deal with. That's not even mentioning the absurdly low CD. Taking off some of the true damage and putting it into dash does nothing to solve it's inherent problems.

Personally, I am done (and have been done for a while now) with League until Mark/Dash is completely gutted or removed. I know that might sound dramatic to some people, but such a drastic change to an established game mode is too much for my poor little heart to take. ARAM once took strategy and planning. Now it's just a total shit-show.

Idea: Why not just make the Poro King mode permanent and leave ARAM alone? To me, they are different enough to merit a distinction like this. Just a thought...

Magnusblitz5/4/2015, 1:23:14 AM7 votes

I'm assuming the whole idea of the snowball is to allow close-range characters who don't have gap closers (and often just run at the enemy, like Garen, Olaf, Eve, etc.) a way to get into combat without being destroyed since flanking is impossible on ARAM.

The problem with the snowball is that its useful on far more characters than just the above-described ones. Why is that?

  1. The range is ridiculous. It's almost the range from one tower to another. This means it can frequently be fired (and score a hit) by someone in the fog of war (!!) The range should be drastically lowered - there aren't that many close-range characters without gap closers who don't build tanky - they're pretty much all tanks and fighters. Lowering the range means they'll take some damage getting close, but they can shrug it off, and use snowball to close the deal.

  2. The cooldown is too short. Snowball is 20 seconds, even if you miss. Every other summoner skill on Howling Abyss is 180 seconds or more. Missing a snowball should have the same drawback as having Flash or Heal down. 20 seconds made sense for Poro King mode because the mechanic was the central idea of the mode (and there was a race to score 10 hits and summon the King). Not so here.

  3. The damage is too high (there probably shouldn't be any damage, honestly). It's intended to be a gap closer, it doesn't need true damage on top of it. That just encourages use as a sniper tool.

One example that really stuck out to me for the problem of the snowball... I had a team which was all squishies (all mages/marksmen). Other team had a Talon who would just sit outside sight range, in the fog of war, and just keep throwing snow balls. As soon as one hit, he'd dash in, ult, combo, etc - entire team dead. Our team had no way to respond because his combo fires off too quickly. This isn't a problem with Talon - he's fine as is - the problem is that, NORMALLY, you stop him by not letting him get in range, and hurting him before he jumps in. But snowball made that impossible... yeah, just dodge it! On a 20 sec cooldown, he's gonna hit someone eventually.

ARAM was fine as is, I'd probably just remove it entirely. But if you want to leave it in, the range needs to be lowered to probably something like 2x flash range, remove the damage, and raise the cooldown.

Evil Jester5/6/2015, 3:06:26 AM6 votes

I really don't enjoy it. it gives champs that are only countered by kiting a HUGE EDGE to the point where having that champ with snowball garentees the win.

Examples:

Amumu the Q and summoner 32 combo makes him supper sticky and hard to get off your butt, and the summoner 32 and ULT combo wins nearly every team fight

Galio another summoner 32 and ULT combo style that can also win team fights, he was one of the highest banned during the Poro King event.

Gnar wait for red resource bar, toss summoner 32 then smash every button possible once mega.

Shyvana another summoner 32 ULT combo, but most that I have seen try to ult toward their team. Super annoying

I just don't think that kind of a gapclose mechanic is healthy. sure you can miss sometimes, but i feel like the benefit/ punishment ratio for some of the champs listed is a lot more weighed in their favor.

Oxbridge5/10/2015, 11:52:40 PM1 votes

Riot, I honestly think that Mark/Dash is fine as it is. Please don't change it in anyway. I think this change helps keep ARAM fresh where meta rarely changes at all, as opposed to SR. Please don't listen to the the people who don't like change - in this case, Change is Good! :)