Boards›Gameplay

Karma nerfs, my opinion on how to handle it correctly.

MisterShameless·8/26/2016, 1:39:41 AM·7 votes·1,538 views

Before I begin, I'd like to say the following:

  1. TL:DR included
  2. Yes, I main Karma (in all forms, but AD carry)
  3. I want to improve the nerf, if not stop it
  4. Her R+W isn't the issue
  5. This nerf won't effect her Pick or Ban status in the LCS

So it came to me and all the other mains that Karma's R+W will be getting a nerf. Chances are this is direct towards Tank Karma. While I understand why she is being nerfed in this area, I don't understand the way you are nerfing it without some form of compensation. I have several ways to improve the nerf to make it healthier to Karma's kit and playstyle of Tank Karma. I will also discuss why Tank Karma shouldn't be nerfed after talking about my ideas as to how to nerf Tank Karma (if the nerfs are aimed at that) correctly.

Here are 3 ways to do so:

  1. Make Karma's W heal scale by rank from 15% at rank 1 to 20% at rank 5. After the recent nerf to her R+E, which I agreed with and still want more power removed and transferred to her W utility (made a couple of threads about it), this helps make leveling skills more decision based. She either has to level her E to be useful in team fights (at least at mid game) or level her W to survive these team fights. A simple, but effect nerf that still lets her retain her W heal. This nerf is the same road they took on her E which is something I really like to see because it made sense and she still had the same utility late game where it counts for her E.

  2. Change her ratios so that she has to build AP items outside of item 3027 Change her ratio from 100ap to 50ap and her heal to 18%/19%/20%/21%/22% at ranks. This way she is rewarded for building ap and the delay on stacks for item 3027 will weaken her R+W heal at early and mid game, but improves it a bit at late game.

  3. Change her R+W altogether with my idea I made sometime back. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/LPQTEAWF-a-power-shift-idea-for-karma Here I discussed how to improve both her heal and utility while improving her game health as a whole.

Links Karma to an enemy champion or monster, revealing them, and dealing 60/110/160/210/260 (+90% Ability Power) magic damage over 2 seconds, rooting them in place for 1.25/1.25/1.75/2/2.25 second(s) if the link is not broken. Mantra Bonus - Renewal: Karma is healed for a flat amount for 20/40/60/80/100 (0.4 ap) per tick (tether ticks 3 times for the full duration). Root delay is decreased from 2 seconds to 1s/0.9s/0.8s/0.7s/0.6s. . The idea is to give Karma more reliable CC and I feel like this would accomplish that.

Now here is where I would talk about why she shouldn't be nerfed for either pro play or Tank Karma. I would like to say a few things before going into why Tank Karma does not deserve nerfs.

  1. Tank Karma's 5,900 gold build is countered by an 800g item item 3123
  2. Mana reliant mages will always build item 3165 since it has become MANDATORY TO BUILD with a bonus contains a grievous wound passive built into it
  3. Tank Karma has no damage (even less if you at least build a little bit of MR)
  4. Tank Karma is just Support Karma with better use of her heal
  5. Yes I do plan on using Tank Ekko and Tank Yasuo as examples (even though Yasuo will get nerfed because of Tank Yasuo)

The main reason why people want to nerf Tank Karma is because she is annoying (which personally I find is a terrible reason to nerf her for). What makes Tank Karma a good pick is that its near impossible to tell where she may lane in, being Top, Mid, Jungle, or Support, so you can't really counter pick her with the only exception being Gnar with his item 3022 or Vayne who is really strong atm and can kill any tank with her Rageblade build item 3124 item 3046 item 3153 in a matter of moments (she doesn't even need item 3123 to kill Tank Karma) Tank Karma usually only builds item 3027 as her only source of AP and Mana regen so building MR like item 3065 for tanks or item 3156 item 3139 for squishies such as ADC for example. That being said, her damage will be very minimal for a Tank who only scales on her healing and not her damage. Tank Karma's strengths relay on skirmishes, not team fights (3v3s, not 5v5) because of how weak her shields are which provide little protection to her team mates. Now the final and most important thing to know is that if you lock Karma out of her heal with hard CC, like you would with Tank Ekko when they are low, you can prevent her from healing and surviving which will lead to killing her without issues. . . . TL:DR/Conclusion Tank Karma isn't a problem when her damage and shields are so low. People like Darius, Illaoi, Tank Ekko, and Tank Yasuo are tanky as well, but can dish out way more damage in any sort of fights. Tank Karma just exiles in 1v1 dueling Her heal is easily countered by a 800g item/Morrellos when her build cost 5,900 gold to make her tanky Killing her is easy if you take time to hard CC her like you would with Darius, Illaoi, Tank Ekko, Tank Yasuo, etc. Tank Karma is just Support Karma, but with better survive-ability . . Overall, this nerf isn't justified when her shield is the problem ever since her 6.6 patch buff and the HUGE nerfs to her competition. Patch 6.6 is what made her Pick or Ban in the LCS.

I'd like to thank you all for taking the time to read this and hope you give feed back to why you agree or disagree with this post. I made this post rather quickly to not spend too much time on it so please let me know if I said something that doesn't make much sense in my argument.

5 Comments

Eedat8/26/2016, 2:44:36 AM2 votes

Tank Karma's 4,000 gold build is countered by an 800g item

I mean you can say that about any drain/sustain tank. Doesn't mean theyre gutted. For example, people said build Executionersagainst Swain and Vlad when they were both meta. Swain is sitting at a 52% win rate while Vlad is sitting at 46%. Why is there such a discrepancy between the 2 when they are both "gutted" by the same 800g item? You dont think theres more going on than that?

The problem is Karma's Mantra W restore % HP. When she starts building tank and HP items, the % HP equates to more and more healing. Add the bous from Runic Armor mastery and Spirit Visage and its just flat out too much. Far beyond what Riot intended when they made her an AP mid and support.

You also forgot to mention Mantra W works on jungle camps! Karma can walk to a jungle camp and Mantra W that to heal herself. How is that fair? Uses her speed boost to run to a camp, restores a metric shit ton of HP, and speed boosts back before the wave crashes into her tower. "Hurr durr but she has to use her ult!" gonna stop you before you even attempt that. Please dont even try to compare Karmas 45 CD with 0% CDR ult thats available at level 1 with other ults

I dont understand these "mains" threads. Every single one of them are beyond a shadow of a doubt the most biased threads on the boards. Tank Karma is a problem. Period. I have mains. I can accept that they have strengths and weaknesses. I can acknowledge when something isnt fair or working as intended. Everyone else seems to lack this ability for some reason and will defend their champion no matter the circumstances

tonytwobits8/26/2016, 3:10:22 AM2 votes

I was thinking something similar to your first idea. Something like: 8% / 10% / 12% / 16% / 20%

Another idea that I think I like better would be nerf the first half of the Mantra W and transfer some of the power to the back half. Make it a 10% on cast then a 25% on root. That way you don't have a large insta-cast heal, as well as makes the root dynamic more interesting. Karma is rewarded more for hitting the root but punished harder for letting it get broken.

If you make the front half of the healing weaker Karma can not recklessly jump into a team fight at low health. They way she is now, you can flash in at 10% health and insta-ultW and be up to 40% instantly (with the right runes and build) Make the front half only 10% and she will have to make damn sure she can survive the 2 seconds for the root to hit or she is in deep trouble.

I will have to run the numbers on it but the 10%/25% split could heal you more than the 20%/20% split in some situations. But in most cases it would be less healing. And in all cases it is more easily punished. It will be easier to kill her in that 2 seconds before the big heal hits and if you do get away from the root she will be in a pretty bad place.