It's okay to have simple champions

zions eyebrows·4/9/2015, 7:59:39 PM·133 votes·19,530 views

I've noticed a scary trend with recent champions and reworks (the ryze rework is what prompted me to finally say something), and it's that new champions are getting more and more needlessly complex (see: azir, gnar, bard, etc.). I'm entirely okay with that, just not when every single addition is new player-unfriendly and old champions that would be new player-friendly are meanwhile being reworked in the same way.

Like... can I just get some assurance that not every new champion from here on out + reworks is going to consist of extreme attempts at trying something new to the point where there are only <5 pick up and play champions in the game?

PS: I don't even think the ryze rework is bad (he definitely needed one), it's the fact that Riot is moving towards unnecessary complications in champion kits as a whole; innovation is fine, just not when it applies to both new champions and champions that were previously new player-friendly.

A lot of people are misinterpreting what I'm saying. I like innovation and new things being added to the game, but I'm worried the innovation is going too far since it's treading into old champion territory and not just new ones.

196 Comments

RiotRiot Scruffy4/10/2015, 1:41:30 AM55 votes

I totally agree. Some of the best designs are the simplest. A lot of rich decision making and very complex play can come from something as simple as Singed Q. I hope that rather than try to add more mechanics we can improve our designs in the future by getting more value from less ("elegance" in a nutshell).

This will be especially key on some of our historically simple mechanic champions (Taric for example). We are making it a goal to add more depth and interest to his play without over complicating the kit or increasing the mechanical floor.

disregardable4/9/2015, 8:05:42 PM44 votes

Honestly, Ryze is the only champion I ever thought was boring to play as. I never feel bored when I play Ashe, Yi, Annie, or any other champion players complain about, but Ryze was honestly a really lackluster champion. I can't say if this will fix that issue or not, but I'm definitely welcoming change for him.

And honestly, all of the champions are really easy to play.

KidSpectre4/9/2015, 9:45:16 PM21 votes

When I was a new player, Ryze was the HARDEST champion for me to just pick up (Azir was two seasons away from existing). You have to use his spells in just the right order in order to get the most out of his resets. He's simple in concept, but that doesn't really make him "easy to use." Conversely, you have a champion like Karma. She has a ton of different effects, mostly tied to her mantra. But for me, even as a newer player, she felt intuitive, fun to use, and easy to pick up.

The point is that "simple" is not necessarily synonymous with "easy."

AMYS GRAVE4/9/2015, 9:05:03 PM10 votes

Yeah, they are really hurting their new player experience, and it's a problem.

mi ramfan4/9/2015, 11:09:58 PM8 votes

I'm confused as to what you want here.

You say you want not every new champion to consist of an "extreme attempt to try something new". The reality is that every "simple" niche in the game is completely filled at this point with multiple competing champions, so the only way for Riot to bring something new to the game (which is what new champion releases are supposed to do anyways tbh) is to make complicated champions. It's not anything to do with Riot not liking simple champions; there simply isn't anything new a simple champion can bring to the game anymore.

Compounding this, of course, is the simple fact that Riot needs to make money. Most "simple" champions that are trumpeted as examples of the best kits of the "good old days" are boring as shit. See Taric, Ryze, Garen, and old Raka for examples of what I'm talking about. Very, very few players will pick Taric when he's not overpowered because he's simply no fun to play because of the lack of interesting gameplay.

That's not to say that simple champions can't be fun, because they can be. Take Ezreal, for example. Every spell in his kit is easy to grasp, so he's "simple", but he also creates fun gameplay through his skillshots. For another example, consider Ahri. Her kit is another very simple kit where each ability has an easily grasped effect and purpose, yet she possesses a surprising amount of depth.

The easy champions that are being reworked are invariably the ones that have play patterns that, although easy to learn, have no variety or interesting gameplay at all. Consider Ryze, for example. In the laning phase, his gameplan is to farm with tear/catalyst/shroud rush for infinite sustain and his snare to cockblock any attempt to actually kill him. In teamfights, he rolls his face on the keyboard while being incredibly bulky. It shouldn't take much to see that there's very little actually going on in his kit-no decisions or gameplay that other champions don't also offer while offering their own unique decisions.

On top of this, simple champions with straightforward, no nonsense kits are often very difficult to balance properly, as well. Consider Ryze again-he will build the same items in the same order almost regardless of his lane opponent. After his first back, he will harass the hell out of any melee laner with his low cooldown Q. If the melee ever blows their gapcloser to approach, snare, step back, and cast more Qs. Because there are no subjective decisions or even aiming for Ryze to do that other champions don't have to do more of, Ryze's laning phase is always either oppressive or terrible depending on his early base damages. If Q/E deal too much damage, it's impossible to lane against him as a melee; if they deal too little, Ryze is useless. There's no in between, either he harasses you to death or he deals more damage to your fingers than the enemy.

With complex champions like Gnar, Bard, Kallista, etc, there are definitely more difficult mechanics for new players to grasp. However, they also have many more levers by which they can be balanced. There are a thousand things they can toy around with on Kalista if she proves to be too strong. With Ryze, it's just his damage values, mana costs, and CDs.

So before I add more on to this incredibly long post, I'd like to hear more from you. What benefits do you see from creating more simple champions when there are already plenty of easily grasped champions for new players? What is so engaging about the gameplay of brainless champions like Ryze and Garen that makes them worth protecting instead of reworking them into a form that asks the player to make decisions? And where do you draw the line between "simple" and complex champions?

Solidair34/9/2015, 11:08:30 PM6 votes

I see you say "unnecessary complications" but Ryze NOT having a skillshot and being all targeted abilities meant he could never be strong. Because when he's strong, there's no fighting back. And when he's not strong, he might as well be useless, because all he can do is hold you in place for a second... and maybe soak up some damage. But NOW, with these "complications" he is more interactive, more fun, and has more options.

Besides, the only way he's "harder" to use now is you have to manage his passive, which probably won't be that bad, and you have to use a skillshot, which isn't even a straight nerf, thanks to its increased range and general functionality.

These complications allow a champion to be situationally strong and weak, instead of always overbearing or always weak.

Cpt Pants4/9/2015, 9:43:51 PM6 votes

I get your frustration, I had this conversation with a few friends... Yet they never seem to stand up to the challenge - Make a simple champion - go.

In today's game, with over 120 champions, making something that is really unique, yet utilizes the same basis of the game: Auto attack, Skillshot, AoE, DoT, etc... There is no real way to keep it simple anymore and having it unique.

Just look at your last simple champion released (fairly simple) - Aatrox. Does he bring anything really unique to pick him over any other champion? Something that you never saw before and you have to have? Simple answer - no. He's a point and click delay AoE knockup binded with mobility, auto attack enhancement, skillshot slow and steroid ultimate. None of which is a reason to take him over any other initiatior / fighter. He does nothing better than any other champion (maybe sustain, but that sustain becomes completely useless mid-late game).

Now look at Bard, is he simple? Hell no. Is he completely unique and you know why you would want him and not say Janna? Absofreakinglutely.

TL;DR: Simple is not unique anymore with 120+ champs. What you call "overloaded" is actually there to make it unique.

Matt The Hero4/9/2015, 8:06:52 PM5 votes

Needlessly complex? I disagree. Out of the champs you mentioned, the only one who is at all complex is Azir, and even then, Riot did a fantastic job at balancing micromanagement (which Riot, and most people, hate) and active play.

Ryze's changes make him more engaging and fun to play as and against. It's a win-win. Some champs need to be a bit less brain dead.

Jungle Lux God4/10/2015, 12:28:40 AM5 votes

It's fine to have champions that are more simple, but there is a point where "simple" becomes "mash your face on the keyboard". At his base, Ryze was too simple that even players who play him for the first time aren't going to have too much fun. In addition, Ryze wasn't that simple on a macro level, as his build options were so restricted that you could not create a proper build without deeper game knowledge of the exact build you needed.

In regards to Ryze now, he's still fairly simple. Q is now a simple skillshot. W is still a targetted ability. E still has some complex mechanics, but the double-bouncing effect really isn't that much more complex than random bouncing, and seems a lot more satisfying than the random bounces. And finally, the R is the same.

The passive seems a lot more complex, but the algorithm for using it is fairly simple:

  1. cast spells
  2. upon x spell casts, you get super strong

There isn't too much to really understand about the passive at a basic level. Ryze is still fairly simple, as his core mechanics really haven't changed too much. However, at a higher level Ryze has truly been changed, and in terms of gameplay for the better. His kit is now so much deeper: for the Ryze player, there is now really interesting gameplay surrounding his new skillshot and the behavior of his E, and with managing his passive's uptime and activation, while his opponents now have super interesting options to play against him between abusing the downtime of his passive, dodging his Q skillshot, and positioning to mitigate damage from his E.

GreenLore4/9/2015, 8:15:22 PM4 votes

The thing is that ryze simply offered no counterplay.

He was/is a point and click champ which sounds nice and easy on paper,but the problem comes if you have to play against him,in which case he simply felt unfair since there was no way to avoid his attacks.

So while some champs become harder to play thats more because it became easier to do something against champs who simply lacked some necessary drawbacks.

Chenh14/10/2015, 10:31:24 PM2 votes

Garen "too easy to play so he's not allowed to be strong"

FreshMeat7074/10/2015, 12:42:43 AM2 votes

New champs in a nutshell:

LV 1 summoner: "Uh, what does Kalista's ult do? I can't use it...."

Toxic player: "OMG U FUKIN NUB YOU HAVE TO SOULBOUND YOUR LANE PARTNER YOU FRIKKIN MORON"

Narasimha4/9/2015, 10:58:57 PM2 votes

While simple is nice, it becomes an issue when simple is strong. Ryze is a perfect example. In his prime, he was strong, and he dominated top lane for it. When knocked down a few numbers, he became a nonentity. Its hard to find the middle ground when there are fewer things to tune.

Spacesuit Spiff4/10/2015, 9:07:40 PM2 votes

You're correct in principle, but I'm not sure what your issue is with Ryze. His passive isn't overcomplicated, it just creates clear windows to fight in. The Q change is fine (although I dislike the fact that now he'll be spamming it on the way back to lane to charge his Tear, I always found that boring and I was glad they made a Tear champ with no skillshots.

Also, new players can just pick up a random champ, mash their faces on the keyboard, and in most cases do alright. It's not like they need to play the champion properly when they're that new. Take Braum for example; they'll probably never use the jump and not get much out of the shield, but as long as they try to Q and AA they'll at least be kinda useful and have some fun. Same as how new players will pick up Annie and completely ignore her passive at first, because a stun doesn't mean much in your first few games.