More Alistar Nerfs, No Core Problems Addressed

Sumutherguy··104 votes·7,057 views

So, since Alistar's rework in the days of yore, it has become some kind of perennial ritual to nerf some part of Alistar's kit or base stats. In almost every case, the problem is explained as "he has too much X for a champion with such good initiation with W>Q". Alistar's AP ratios have been cut in half, his ultimate DR and duration has been reduced, his heal has been nerfed repeatedly and is now a shadow of its former self, W and Q both got massive base damage reductions, hes lost a myriad of base stats, the ability to do a "parting shot" on headbutt for lane harass, and the ability to effectively heal allies outside of a long-term laning scenario, and even the shiny new passive he was given has been rendered all-but inconsequential. The one thing Alistar has never lost since the rework, however, is that precious W>Q combo. The same combo that made him broken immediately following its release, and the same combo that makes him so difficult to balance. And I get it, it's a difficult thing to balance around, because that combo took a defensive/heal tank and made him into a hard initiator. Prior to his rework Alistar was considered well balanced, and perhaps a little weak, as a high-healing, peeling, incredibly survivable hard-defensive tank. With each patch since then he's creeped closer and closer to being little more than a glorified stunbot.

So I guess my question is this: how much of Alistar's kit and stats are acceptable to sacrifice to preserve a combo that breaks entirely from the rest of his identity and role as a champion? Are we going to remove the defensive/peeling/healing identity of Alistar as a tank entirely, just to keep him able to dive enemies? What is it that makes this W>Q combo so sacred that a champion can be torn down around it? Why continue in this way and with these conflicting champion identity aspects when Ali could be reworked again into an offensive champ or the combo removed and his identity as a defensive counter-initiator restored without the present unbalancability?

94 Comments

Glaedr34 votes

I personally see the problem being his 70% damage reduction ultimate. When that's not up, he has clear weaknesses and is gated by his fairly long cooldowns. When he was a toplaner a season or 2 ago and he was rushing shiv and trinity force, that had very little to do with the fact he has a solid combo, it was the fact he could build full damage and still be a super tanky front-liner with his ultimate.

Sumutherguy10 votes

{quoted}

I personally see the problem being his 70% damage reduction ultimate. When that's not up, he has clear weaknesses and is gated by his fairly long cooldowns. When he was a toplaner a season or 2 ago and he was rushing shiv and trinity force, that had very little to do with the fact he has a solid combo, it was the fact he could build full damage and still be a super tanky front-liner with his ultimate.

The toplane W-poke build was never really a universally viable thing, but rather a niche pick in only certain circumstances. His ult was actually more powerful pre-rework, with 75% reduction (which was actually 20% more powerful when total effective HP increase is accounted for) and lasted longer at max rank, and he was considered a little under-powered. The un-killability was a lot less of a problem when he was a less mobile, defensively-oriented tank who could be counter-played around.

Glaedr13 votes

{quoted}

The toplane W-poke build was never really a universally viable thing, but rather a niche pick in only certain circumstances. His ult was actually more powerful pre-rework, with 75% reduction (which was actually 20% more powerful when total effective HP increase is accounted for) and lasted longer at max rank, and he was considered a little under-powered. The un-killability was a lot less of a problem when he was a less mobile, defensively-oriented tank who could be counter-played around.

Here's an LCK game from a couple years that I dug up in 2 minutes with Alistar front-lining with two damage items and a frozen heart at the end. Sure, it probably had increased effectiveness thanks to SHC having two assassins, but it was by no means a "niche" pick. It was extremely broken at the time and I doubt anybody who mained top-lane at the time misses fighting Alistar when he could W-auto. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5cS2YPxMAs

Point being, I believe he's been getting nerfed in the wrong places. If his ult was only 60% or even 50% damage reduction, I'm sure he would still be a super solid tank champion that could probably still be a fun jungler or a top laner if they reverted some of the other past nerfs such as his passive and W-auto. But the problem is if he ever sacrifices some bonus defensive stats, he just has to sit back for a little over a minute whenever his ult is down and boom, he can frontline for you team again.

Nuparu2 votes

sorry to nitpick but that's EULCS not LCK :P

FastAsHeck30 votes

I agree with this. If you want a tanky engager, there are champions like Leona . On the other hand we need more champions that like to sit on their adc and protect them, similar to Braum .

I think the combo should be removed and his W range should be gutted so it isn't a gapcloser but a reactive "get off my carry" move. In exchange he can have some ower back to other abilities.

Also his E is really anit-thematic. He's a god damn minotaur, how does he heal people? I'd say he needs a new ability there.

flibitydoo4 votes

{quoted} I think the combo should be removed

why remove the combo?

that's the whole reason he get's picked!

it's the whole reason he's unique. No other support can do the knockup/engage he does and I think it fits perfectly with his role.

removing it would be a terrible idea. What's next? Remove the pull effect from blitzcrank? remove the wall from braum? hows about we just delete every single unique ability from all supports in the game, and replace them all literally the exact same 4 abilities, since apparently champions doing unique things and having unique strengths is against the rules. Apparently we are only allowed to have one champion be a tanky engager. Sorry Thresh, Alistar, Braum, Shen, Tahm, Nautilus, Poppy and Blitzcrank! Apparently we must delete you since apparently Leona is the only tanky engage support champion allowed to exist according to this guy.

And the issue with Alistar, the only reason he's seen competitive play/seen balance changes is because his ult was shifted from a 50%/60%/70% damage reduction to a 70% damage reduction which makes him the king of tower dives. Before that change he wasn't very popular, all you saw for supports were thresh, braum and nami back in season 4.

Also his heal is pretty much a necessary tool to let this guy even function as a support. If you've ever played this champion, you know how much he gets rolled in lane, since all-in (and a very small heal) is all he has to contribute to winning lane. And if you don't win the all-ins, then you lose because trading is non-existant with this champion. It's a fair, distinctive weakness/trade-off for such powerful engage.

Abyssphere2 votes

{quoted}

why remove the combo?

that's the whole reason he get's picked!

it's the whole reason he's unique. No other support can do the knockup/engage he does and I think it fits perfectly with his role.

removing it would be a terrible idea. What's next? Remove the pull effect from blitzcrank? remove the wall from braum? hows about we just delete every single unique ability from all supports in the game, and replace them all literally the exact same 4 abilities, since apparently champions doing unique things and having unique strengths is against the rules. Apparently we are only allowed to have one champion be a tanky engager. Sorry Thresh, Alistar, Braum, Shen, Tahm, Nautilus, Poppy and Blitzcrank! Apparently we must delete you since apparently Leona is the only tanky engage support champion allowed to exist according to this guy.

And the issue with Alistar, the only reason he's seen competitive play/seen balance changes is because his ult was shifted from a 50%/60%/70% damage reduction to a 70% damage reduction which makes him the king of tower dives. Before that change he wasn't very popular, all you saw for supports were thresh, braum and nami back in season 4.

Also his heal is pretty much a necessary tool to let this guy even function as a support. If you've ever played this champion, you know how much he gets rolled in lane, since all-in (and a very small heal) is all he has to contribute to winning lane. And if you don't win the all-ins, then you lose because trading is non-existant with this champion. It's a fair, distinctive weakness/trade-off for such powerful engage.

You realise the guy you're replying to said the combo should be removed because it's not unique, right? And your comparisons are woeful - Blitz Q is a unique spell, so is Braum wall. Alistar's QW combo is just an arbitrarily awkward "I jump on you and you are CC'd" mechanic.

The person you're replying to wants Alistar's combo removed so that his more unique aspects (a tank support with an ally heal and hard anti-diver peel) can be played up. It seems to be that you are the one defending generic champions and abilities because Alistar's engage is far less unique than the other things he could be offering with his kit.

flibitydoo2 votes

my point is that Alistar is unique because of his combo. It's his identity and it has been for years. No one has ever complained about it since there are noticeable tradeoffs with noticeable rewards. the only other champions that share anything close to similar are malphite (ult) and Kalista (ult). And if we're going to call Alistar a generic, engage copycat; Alistar is literally one of the original 40 champions. Which means that literally every other tanky engager after him is actually an imitation of him. If anything, every other tanky engager should be reworked/deleted, and the original be kept in place. But again, my point is that_ it's perfectly fine _to have multiple tanky engage champions, especially since Alistar is still slightly unique amongst them because his is targeted (and low range).

And seriously? You want to promote him being a non-engage minotaur? Not charging at people and smashing them with the power and speed of a minotaur? And then using his raw strength and endurance, which is reflected in his lore when he fought in the noxian deathpit event known as the fleshing, to survive and hold out as long as he can? You seriously want to get rid of that on the minotaur champion? You want him to be some heal champion (a-hem Taric) with anti-diver knockback (a-hem Poppy).

Also wtf, and I mean, why in the f!@# are you saying "arbitrarily awkward". Oh so apparently engaging with cc like every other tank in the game is "arbitrarily awkward". Choosing to dash towards a champion and knock them up to get them killed by the rest of your team is according to you, both random and strange. Man is it just weird that my league of legends match, the Alistar on the enemy team is trying to kill me? and my towers and my nexus? Wow! ...Or perhaps you were being pretentious and you were trying to use big words you quite clearly don't know how to use to describe a very simple and basic engage combo in a negative tone. The combo is a cool because it gives two abilities that already have some type of independant utility, an additional synergistic function, which is a perfectly healthy. It's not awkward. And it's not arbitrary.

Alistar getting nerfs is a case of his numbers being overtuned (namely his ult, bare in mind that Alistar barely saw play until his ult got buffed to what it is), but instead of gutting his strengths (his engage/tankiness) and leaving nothing but a useless champion that does nothing, they instead amplify his weaknesses to give him greater counterplay through those weaknesses. Oh look, his heal is a lot less, especially when healing his ADC, that means harassing him (or even better, his ADC) is even more punishing in lane. Hey look a weakness you can exploit! But of course, even with these weaknesses (that could possibly be overcome with smart play) there's still a perfectly valid and good reason to pick this champion. Just like every other support.

Abyssphere2 votes

I don't know why you are getting so angry at me and I don't know why you are putting words in my mouth - I at no point gave any indication as to what I'd like Riot to with Alistar, I never said that they should change him. All I was doing was explaining why the guy you replied to was being reasonable in his post and your attacks on him were by and large out of nowhere and downright unfair. As I said, it makes no sense to attack someone for "wanting Alistar to be generic" when he very clearly wants Alistar to be changed because he thinks he would be more unique if he were. And frankly I'm not buying your argument for Alistar being unique if "his engage is targeted" is legitimately the best argument you have.

I don't want to promote anything, I don't know what the best thing Riot can do with Alistar is. A passive minotaur would be lacking thematically, yes. Alistar sucks from a thematic point of view anyway but sure, making him more peel-focused would probably exacerbate that.

I don't know why you see a word with more than two syllables in it and choose to insult the person using it just because you disagree with them. You clearly never bothered to try to figure out what I was saying. The act of engaging or wanting to engage isn't awkward, but Alistar's method of doing it is. Every other support that wants to engage does it by just... using an ability designed to do it and works to do it. Naut uses Q or ults, Blitz hooks, Thresh hooks, Leona ults. Alistar uses two abilities in combination, buffering one ability to cancel the other so it doesn't work properly, and fails an amusing amount of the time (even after it was made significantly easier) because it's a really awkward mechanic that his kit wasn't meant to have. And at the end of the day when you strip away how weird and challenging his engage is to perform, it's just a generic "CC people from range" combo. This is relevant in relation to you comparing removing that combo to removing Blitz Q and Braum W, because those abilities actually naturally work with the rest of their kit and do unique things. Alistar's QW is completely unrelated to the rest of his kit (while Blitz and Braum both have abilities that work extremely well with their signature abilities) and ultimately not unique, which can't be said for the other moves you listed.

As I said, I don't have strong feelings about what Riot do with Alistar. But in your obsession with preserving Alistar's current state, you seem to be incorrectly judging what everyone you're responding to is saying and using a lot of poor arguments yourself. There are good reasons to keep Alistar's QW, but "It's unique!" and "People who want it gone are pretentious and use words they don't understand!" aren't those reasons.

OyddAWqJ5r3 votes

Alistar originally didn't have this combo.

Penta Penguin3 votes

"No other support can do the knockup/engage he does "

Without even looking at my champion list;

Braum, Leona, Malphite all share the same engage / knockup / AOE t hat Alistar has. Alistar's only unique when he's NOT comboing since he has the ability to push people away or into his team, but that is negated if you combo into Q which is a poor-cow's Malphite ult

SkyblazeHydraX31 votes

{quoted}

"No other support can do the knockup/engage he does "

Without even looking at my champion list;

Leona

Uhm.....

Penta Penguin2 votes

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

SkyblazeHydraX31 votes

What? Leona has an AoE stun sure, but she sure as hell can't send enemies skyward for Yasuo.

Penta Penguin3 votes

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

SkyblazeHydraX33 votes

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Quepha19 votes

I am extremely confused by you thinking Alistar's passive and E are more fun than the WQ combo.

FantasySniper2 votes

It's not that it isn't fun, it's that the WQ combo is unhealthy and gets to remove everything else fun about Alistar.

Quepha5 votes

{quoted}

It's not that it isn't fun, it's that the WQ combo is unhealthy and gets to remove everything else fun about Alistar.

I don't think it's unhealthy. The range is limited and it uses up two long and essential cooldowns in Alistar's kit. If Alistar didn't have this limited engage potential (that is pretty much strictly inferior to many engage ultimates from other popular champions), he then becomes nothing but a peel master for his team to a degree that would put even Janna to shame and basically makes any match with an Alistar an "Only ranged champions may apply" game as any melee trying to engage gets instantly reset (also he heals up any poke his team WOULD take). He is currently great at peeling, but by having that engage option to fall back on he can be balanced around being only great at peeling instead of "half the enemy team is invalidated" tier.

I also don't think anything else fun about Alistar has been removed from him. Loss of damage on his passive? a reduced heal on the heal that was already pretty boring? I don't care about those very much. Riot could pretty much disable both of those abilities and I would be happy with what was left on Alistar (as long as it was still pretty balanced).

Furthermore, some of that stuff was not actually nerfed because of the power of WQ. The change to his passive was mainly to prevent jungle Alistar, but it was flash->Q->W that actually made jungle Alistar so toxic to the game since it takes a champion with proper positioning and kicks them into certain death territory. The bye-bye auto after W was removed because top lane Alistar's W key, with no help at all from the rest of his kit, was turning into a repeatable "trade" that he was guaranteed to win every time the ability was up with nothing the enemy could do about it.

junglerboy1613 votes

I have to agree. Before they gutted everything in exchange for his W-Q combo, he used to be a versatile multi-role champion that had distinct pros and cons. Now he's just a hard engage Malphite wannabe. His niche should be refocused on his defensive capabilities, with maybe a little tower diving because of his ult. He's a strong disruptor and would be an amazingly useful (and healthy) jungler if they only removed his W-Q combo. Riot has repeatedly acknowledged the disproportionate strength this combo gives to Alistar, and if they removed the bugged interaction instead of encouraging it with the buffering effect they gave his Q then Alistar could be put in a healthy spot instead of his perennially OP/Broken position in the meta.

Valexfor1 votes

I just want to say: his w + q combo is not even that strong since it requires bad positioning from the enemy and an heavy follow up, making alistar strong only in pro play and only when the enemy team makes the mistake to crowd toghether, maybe in the jungle or something like that, since the range of the knockup is not as big as it seems really. Also we already have other examples of riot's aknowledging bugs as "fun gameplay mechanics": lee sin's ward jumping was a bug in the beginning but since so many people liked it they made it an actual thing and gave it to other champs (jax, kata and anyone who can do that).

Remlap12234 votes

Ah, the Flash Tibbers excuse, bullshit no matter how you reason it. And Alistar isn't just strong in competitive. I've been seeing him constantly since they added the buffer to his W to allow him to Q mid cast.

Valexfor2 votes

Nope, flash tibbers is a high burst combo with no counterplay, Alistar's headbut can be easily dashed out of and aslistar can hardly get himself a kill while annie can easily do that... kind of a different thing you know? Also even if the champ is beying played it doesn't mean he's winning that much he's at a 49.26%, just average not bad not good, if he wa as strong as riot and some people make him out to be he would have at least at 56-57%. You can't really compare the highest burst combo in the game, which also has no counterplay, with an easily outplayable combo which has no damage and puts the champ into the center of the enemy team, they are just not the same thing.

Jorencice2 votes

Banshees veil.

Tibbers is countered.

Also karthus ult has better burst.

5x uninteruptable map wide damage ftw.

(Unless they all have banshees)

Valexfor2 votes

Banshee is situational, most of the times you won't have it up when she flash tibbers (or she won't do it). And aslo karthus's ult can be escaped by zed, bard, shaco, lb (to some degree), and other champs, also zhonya. But that's notconsidered counterplay, that's counterbuild which is another thing. Also annie's combo is actually the highest damage burst combo, I never said tibbers alone was part of the burst (while tibbers having the highest combined damage in the game by himself from burst and aoe damage alone).

Jorencice2 votes

I dunno if you stand next to karthus for 45 seconds bet his E will deal more damage than tibbers.

Edit: it does 40 .2 ap Karthus does 110 .2 ap

EvilRabbitt2 votes

Can be interrupted if he does it while alive. Otherwise Locket. Also Locket kills Annie. Well actually this guy does too but ye Galio

Blackstone0110 votes

Tbh they shouldn't really have made his combo so incredibly easy. Now the only separation between a bad Alistar and a good Alistar is a working keyboard.

Remlap12232 votes

You basically hit the nail on the head. I get that a champion shouldn't feel clunky to play, but having a flawless WQ combo all the time is just too powerful. Malphite has a minute and a half cooldown for his ultimate, but once Alistar hits level 2, he can consistently lock down a carry, and his/her support if they're close enough.

Thresh Outta Fux7 votes

I mean, if you really want to nerf his W+Q combo, just have W work like Draven Draven's Stand Aside, as a skillshot and not a lock-on skill.

I would think a charging minotaur would be more of a CLEAR THE F*CKING PATH sort of attack, rather than lightly knocking one champion back and then AoE into the air. That seems more like a Shielded Fighter sort of skill, like a Poppy thing.

And, suppose that a champion is inside of the path of Alistar's W, it could bring them with him as he travels. Raise the CD of his W, reduce the knockup time on his Q, maybe even just turn it into a disrupt+slow/grounded/root.

This way, his initiation shoves all of the enemies away from eachother, which means his team can't pile on ults&abilities at that one spot.

If his Q became a Disrupt+Slow, the cooldown could be reduced immensely, similar to Nautilus Nautilus's Riptide. Right now, having a low CD on his E means ridiculous amounts of heals, a low CD on his W means initiation 24/7, and his R means unkillable. None of these abilities really work intelligently with his passive, as they require high CD times to not be incredibly broken, while his passive revolves around spamming said abilities to deal AoE damage.

thumbnail97 votes

Because CC is all you need in his role? That is it.

Every time a support gets nerfed barring Soraka (thought she got her CC hard nerfed). This is why they nerf them, period. Janna, Annie, Zyra, Taric, Braum, Ali, Sonna, Leona. It all comes down to them having parts of their kit removed due to the fact you can't have "X" with that much CC or easy to use CC.

So far you can only tank and CC, and the only way you can do that as a support is have mad CC and some sort of flat damage reduction because LOL your 4 lvls down suck a dick support guy. Really its just a mismanage of the support role on Riot's part.

KING OF MASKS3 votes

How dare you question the arbitrary Alistar nerf ritual. Rito, remove this vagrant and his heretical filth at once.

Wolfenstin3 votes

I don't find his combo to be THAT strong in my honest opinion. Yeah, it's good, but it also renders you somehwhat of a useless punching bag for the duration of your cooldowns, even more so in the early game. You pull of a W+Q at level 2 or 3, you're at half mana, wasted the two abilities worth anything, and can now only helplessly pat the enemy ADC while they completely ignore you.

The combo is cool, and I'm okay with it, but too many people (even Riot I might argue) think it's the end all be all thing to do as Alistar. There's a little too much emphasis on it, and it's hurting the rest of his abilities.

DrOinkleBerry3 votes

I would trade the W>Q combo away in exchange for buffing everything else in his kit. And to be honest, getting rid of the combo wouldn't necessarily make him incapable of engaging. It's just that he'd have to target a minion or champion so he can get in range of the enemy team in order to Q. So he could still do it, just not instantly on the target of his W (& everyone around that target). And you know, I don't see anything wrong with this. Getting rid of the combo doesn't invalidate the theme of the abilities. Headbutt still gives you the feel of a charging bull. Pulverize still gives you the feel of having unimaginable strength. So what if you can't combo them if they aren't fundamentally changed at all?

Also, I'm so damn sick of Triumphant Roar hate. What about it "makes no sense"? The point of the ability is to feel as though you are filling your allies with renewed morale in the wake of killing enemies. It's a testament to Alistar's ability to be not only powerful and strong, but also a spirited warrior whom invigorates his allies with courage, restoring their vitality as well as their hope.

I honestly agree with you OP. Alistar's primary function these days is to be literally a stunbot that does nothing else but soak damage. W>Q is satisfying to pull off occasionally, but when W>Q is the only interesting thing to do with Alistar, it quickly becomes tiresome. It makes you long to do something else once you reach that frontline. But because W>Q is so strong, Alistar gets less and less alternative play potential in exchange for the power of spamming a chain cc over and over again. I have rank 5 mastery with Alistar. I know that doesn't necessarily make me a massive expert on him, but it gives me a good perspective of what playing Alistar feels like.

So what does Alistar feel like to me? He feels so dreadfully predictable and monotonous that the most fun I have with Alistar is when I do everything I possibly can to be more than just a stunbot. I take him toplane and build AP assassin or bruiser, because being a damage threat in addition to my cc makes me thrilled. I take him support and rush Ardent Censor and Hourglass (after gold income item) because the mass-healing of my team like I'm a tauren shaman feels equally as satisfying as getting in a good W>Q. So as far as I can see, Alistar is undoubtedly more fun to play when he has the ability to do more than just engage. And so, again, I would absolutely trade his combo away for a buff to everything else in his kit. Higher AP ratios, total AD scaling, better heals, better Trample damage, better ANYTHING... anything that makes him more than a stunbot.

Fucking. Anything.

Valexfor2 votes

I think that, as things are now, they could actually just make his passive, q and w scale off of ad while leaving the ap scaling on the e. I mean: the only reason the cow can't scale off of ad is because he would be able to build both tank AND damage meaning ad scalings would make him op but, right now, with his actual scalings even if he were to scale off of ad he would be just an average tank with a strong initiation, good damage and good sustain (like every tank in the game), also woul finally allow him to top efficiently, making alistar ad top a solid pick and not a cheese troll pick...

Sumutherguy2 votes

{quoted}

I think that, as things are now, they could actually just make his passive, q and w scale off of ad while leaving the ap scaling on the e. I mean: the only reason the cow can't scale off of ad is because he would be able to build both tank AND damage meaning ad scalings would make him op but, right now, with his actual scalings even if he were to scale off of ad he would be just an average tank with a strong initiation, good damage and good sustain (like every tank in the game), also woul finally allow him to top efficiently, making alistar ad top a solid pick and not a cheese troll pick...

I do love me some AD bruister Alistar, and AD scaling would make the 90 free AD from his ult more meaningful, but Alistar can already build AD and dive-murder squishies, and without an alteration of his combo AD scaling might just push him into beefy assassin as a primary role.

Mickey Donnerudo2 votes

You gotta admit, W+AA was pretty broken. Rush sheen, all of a sudden for less than 100 mana you could deal ~100+100*2 = 300 damage with no retaliation AND deny farm/exp.

DarkRitual3 votes

Different from any stun how?

My Waifu Vanilla2 votes

Because Ali W is much stronger than a stun in top lane? Ranged and doesn't put him next to his target (you can hit a Riven on her way to you and on the way out whereas Ali wasn't getting hit at all by melee champs).

Syndrarella1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mickey Donnerudo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k2hLfBf5,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2016-03-30T16:28:44.686+0000)

You gotta admit, W+AA was pretty broken. Rush sheen, all of a sudden for less than 100 mana you could deal ~100+100*2 = 300 damage with no retaliation AND deny farm/exp.

Indeed. I don't think anyone misses the Reign of Lichbane Alistar. Alistaritem 3100

Psi212 votes

Alistar like Nautilus and other tanks are just doing too much damage for being tanks. And like Nautilus he is getting changed. I just can't see how players aren't see this... They are suppose to be tanks.

Too old for this4 votes

What damage? I play Alistar all the time as support. With all the tank items you buy, you always end up doing the least damage in game (normally by far). Yes, you can play him AP and do damage but if it is damage that your team comp needs, there are A LOT of better choices.

Dingding1232 votes

Alistar needs a rework before Taric. Honestly.

So Taric never seems like he's doing much. He's an aura-bot with a stun. What crime is that? Alistar can become nigh unkillable and has a near-instant (instant (or even further ranged) with Flash) ranged AoE knockup. Tell me Taric isn't more healthy with a straight face.

Castanean3 votes

Taric is healthier than Alistar as a champion. But Taric still needs that rework first.

Compare; Taric can stun a target for 1.5 seconds ever 14 seconds. Taric can heal and provide aura-buffs to his allies. He can also walk into the middle of the enemy team and rip off his armor to rip off theirs. Other than that... What exactly does Taric do? Alistar can knockup an AoE around him, knock BACK a target, AoE heal and press R to become nigh-invincible for a duration.

Consider the differences in how these two champions play. Alistar WORKS, because his utility has actual functions and he DEFINITELY feels impactful. Taric on the other hand throws a single, slow single-target stun every teamfight along with a single heal. Besides that Taric is just standing around looking fabulous. Which one seems the more fun to play?

Taric needs a rework because his kit is FUCKING ANCIENT. Alistar's kit, unlike Taric's, works and feels impactful. Champions aren't reworked just for being toxic, if that was the case LeBlanc, Fizz and Vladimir would have been reworked a looooong time ago.

ragnos2391 votes

Taric feels more impactful based on how many AD champs the enemy team has (and how hard AD they are. True damage or someone like corki is problematic). My greatest successes as him are when the only mr item I need to buy is a spirit visage. I use him top solo as counter to AD champs and if you can get over his initial really bad early game he starts to work really well. (Side note, he loses this capacity in his rework and I'm quitting. If riot breaks him solo but leaves things like naut or AP alistar viable in solo lanes and I'm done).

That said, as support his entire contribution relies on the carry. He's still super niche and magic damage on the enemy team will shut him down because building a significant amount of mr means he loses a lot of CDR or armor which are mainstats for him. His peel is single target, his engage is single target, and, while he can be deceptively hard to kill and do a deceptively high amount of damage, in anything but a 1v1 he's entirely dependent on his team to do anything. Even his 1v1 is dependent on the enemy not realizing they're losing until it's too late for them to get away. Without an iceborn the second the enemy decides to leave, he has no way of keeping them there. His stun is only a second or two which means it's usually over by the time you get into melee range from casting it and even with his passive and 40% CDR takes 2+ hits to get it back which means they're gone if they want to be.

Long story short, he's got his strengths, but he's super niche and doesn't have those big impactful moments like an alistar engage and/or ult.

Castanean1 votes

Yep, and it's this super-nicheness that makes him need that rework. It's like Galio, really. If you consider Galio's numbers, what his kit CAN do and HOW DAMN TANKY HE IS, Galio SHOULD by all means be an incredibly powerful champion, but the way his kit works is extremely niche, even more so than Taric.

All in all, champions having a niche is a good thing, but when it gets to the extent of Galio and Taric, where it's a bit too niche... Well, that just takes from the fun of a champion, since even if you enjoy playing the champion and get super good at them, they're going to underperform no matter how good you are if the conditions for their niche aren't met.

Personally, I hope the Taric rework lets him not rely on armor, just love it, in addition to maybe making him NOT be so easy to run away from. BUT! The most important thing for Taric's rework is that he STAYS FABULOUS! If Taric doesn't stay fab as fuck, I'm personally going to travel all the way to Rito HQ and riot.

ragnos2391 votes

Funny thing, Galio is my go to pick for the same situations as taric, just with magic damage instead >.> I would be ecstatic if both were less of a super niche pick, but I'm scared that taking them out of the niche will change everything I love about both of them =(

CrazedPorcupine2 votes

You could gut rework his R and E, and remove all damage from his Q and W, and Alistar would STILL be considered Top tier support, simply because of his CC.

Mastery 7 Shaco2 votes

Alistar got a buff in PBE. His passive does 745.08 damage with only 41 ability power. At 1144 ability power, it does 20669.4 damage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkH4mui4Wh4

YossarianSensei2 votes

The 'problem' is that his ult allows him to actually tank into late game instead of getting evaporated like most other melees.

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