More Alistar Nerfs, No Core Problems Addressed

Sumutherguy·3/30/2016, 1:29:13 PM·104 votes·7,057 views

So, since Alistar's rework in the days of yore, it has become some kind of perennial ritual to nerf some part of Alistar's kit or base stats. In almost every case, the problem is explained as "he has too much X for a champion with such good initiation with W>Q". Alistar's AP ratios have been cut in half, his ultimate DR and duration has been reduced, his heal has been nerfed repeatedly and is now a shadow of its former self, W and Q both got massive base damage reductions, hes lost a myriad of base stats, the ability to do a "parting shot" on headbutt for lane harass, and the ability to effectively heal allies outside of a long-term laning scenario, and even the shiny new passive he was given has been rendered all-but inconsequential. The one thing Alistar has never lost since the rework, however, is that precious W>Q combo. The same combo that made him broken immediately following its release, and the same combo that makes him so difficult to balance. And I get it, it's a difficult thing to balance around, because that combo took a defensive/heal tank and made him into a hard initiator. Prior to his rework Alistar was considered well balanced, and perhaps a little weak, as a high-healing, peeling, incredibly survivable hard-defensive tank. With each patch since then he's creeped closer and closer to being little more than a glorified stunbot.

So I guess my question is this: how much of Alistar's kit and stats are acceptable to sacrifice to preserve a combo that breaks entirely from the rest of his identity and role as a champion? Are we going to remove the defensive/peeling/healing identity of Alistar as a tank entirely, just to keep him able to dive enemies? What is it that makes this W>Q combo so sacred that a champion can be torn down around it? Why continue in this way and with these conflicting champion identity aspects when Ali could be reworked again into an offensive champ or the combo removed and his identity as a defensive counter-initiator restored without the present unbalancability?

94 Comments

Glaedr3/30/2016, 2:37:19 PM34 votes

I personally see the problem being his 70% damage reduction ultimate. When that's not up, he has clear weaknesses and is gated by his fairly long cooldowns. When he was a toplaner a season or 2 ago and he was rushing shiv and trinity force, that had very little to do with the fact he has a solid combo, it was the fact he could build full damage and still be a super tanky front-liner with his ultimate.

FastAsHeck3/30/2016, 3:05:00 PM30 votes

I agree with this. If you want a tanky engager, there are champions like Leona . On the other hand we need more champions that like to sit on their adc and protect them, similar to Braum .

I think the combo should be removed and his W range should be gutted so it isn't a gapcloser but a reactive "get off my carry" move. In exchange he can have some ower back to other abilities.

Also his E is really anit-thematic. He's a god damn minotaur, how does he heal people? I'd say he needs a new ability there.

Quepha3/30/2016, 3:40:30 PM19 votes

I am extremely confused by you thinking Alistar's passive and E are more fun than the WQ combo.

junglerboy163/30/2016, 1:40:42 PM13 votes

I have to agree. Before they gutted everything in exchange for his W-Q combo, he used to be a versatile multi-role champion that had distinct pros and cons. Now he's just a hard engage Malphite wannabe. His niche should be refocused on his defensive capabilities, with maybe a little tower diving because of his ult. He's a strong disruptor and would be an amazingly useful (and healthy) jungler if they only removed his W-Q combo. Riot has repeatedly acknowledged the disproportionate strength this combo gives to Alistar, and if they removed the bugged interaction instead of encouraging it with the buffering effect they gave his Q then Alistar could be put in a healthy spot instead of his perennially OP/Broken position in the meta.

Blackstone013/30/2016, 3:06:07 PM10 votes

Tbh they shouldn't really have made his combo so incredibly easy. Now the only separation between a bad Alistar and a good Alistar is a working keyboard.

Thresh Outta Fux3/30/2016, 3:15:46 PM7 votes

I mean, if you really want to nerf his W+Q combo, just have W work like Draven Draven's Stand Aside, as a skillshot and not a lock-on skill.

I would think a charging minotaur would be more of a CLEAR THE F*CKING PATH sort of attack, rather than lightly knocking one champion back and then AoE into the air. That seems more like a Shielded Fighter sort of skill, like a Poppy thing.

And, suppose that a champion is inside of the path of Alistar's W, it could bring them with him as he travels. Raise the CD of his W, reduce the knockup time on his Q, maybe even just turn it into a disrupt+slow/grounded/root.

This way, his initiation shoves all of the enemies away from eachother, which means his team can't pile on ults&abilities at that one spot.

If his Q became a Disrupt+Slow, the cooldown could be reduced immensely, similar to Nautilus Nautilus's Riptide. Right now, having a low CD on his E means ridiculous amounts of heals, a low CD on his W means initiation 24/7, and his R means unkillable. None of these abilities really work intelligently with his passive, as they require high CD times to not be incredibly broken, while his passive revolves around spamming said abilities to deal AoE damage.

thumbnail93/30/2016, 4:18:06 PM7 votes

Because CC is all you need in his role? That is it.

Every time a support gets nerfed barring Soraka (thought she got her CC hard nerfed). This is why they nerf them, period. Janna, Annie, Zyra, Taric, Braum, Ali, Sonna, Leona. It all comes down to them having parts of their kit removed due to the fact you can't have "X" with that much CC or easy to use CC.

So far you can only tank and CC, and the only way you can do that as a support is have mad CC and some sort of flat damage reduction because LOL your 4 lvls down suck a dick support guy. Really its just a mismanage of the support role on Riot's part.

DrOinkleBerry3/31/2016, 7:14:03 AM3 votes

I would trade the W>Q combo away in exchange for buffing everything else in his kit. And to be honest, getting rid of the combo wouldn't necessarily make him incapable of engaging. It's just that he'd have to target a minion or champion so he can get in range of the enemy team in order to Q. So he could still do it, just not instantly on the target of his W (& everyone around that target). And you know, I don't see anything wrong with this. Getting rid of the combo doesn't invalidate the theme of the abilities. Headbutt still gives you the feel of a charging bull. Pulverize still gives you the feel of having unimaginable strength. So what if you can't combo them if they aren't fundamentally changed at all?

Also, I'm so damn sick of Triumphant Roar hate. What about it "makes no sense"? The point of the ability is to feel as though you are filling your allies with renewed morale in the wake of killing enemies. It's a testament to Alistar's ability to be not only powerful and strong, but also a spirited warrior whom invigorates his allies with courage, restoring their vitality as well as their hope.

I honestly agree with you OP. Alistar's primary function these days is to be literally a stunbot that does nothing else but soak damage. W>Q is satisfying to pull off occasionally, but when W>Q is the only interesting thing to do with Alistar, it quickly becomes tiresome. It makes you long to do something else once you reach that frontline. But because W>Q is so strong, Alistar gets less and less alternative play potential in exchange for the power of spamming a chain cc over and over again. I have rank 5 mastery with Alistar. I know that doesn't necessarily make me a massive expert on him, but it gives me a good perspective of what playing Alistar feels like.

So what does Alistar feel like to me? He feels so dreadfully predictable and monotonous that the most fun I have with Alistar is when I do everything I possibly can to be more than just a stunbot. I take him toplane and build AP assassin or bruiser, because being a damage threat in addition to my cc makes me thrilled. I take him support and rush Ardent Censor and Hourglass (after gold income item) because the mass-healing of my team like I'm a tauren shaman feels equally as satisfying as getting in a good W>Q. So as far as I can see, Alistar is undoubtedly more fun to play when he has the ability to do more than just engage. And so, again, I would absolutely trade his combo away for a buff to everything else in his kit. Higher AP ratios, total AD scaling, better heals, better Trample damage, better ANYTHING... anything that makes him more than a stunbot.

Fucking. Anything.

Wolfenstin3/30/2016, 9:58:21 PM3 votes

I don't find his combo to be THAT strong in my honest opinion. Yeah, it's good, but it also renders you somehwhat of a useless punching bag for the duration of your cooldowns, even more so in the early game. You pull of a W+Q at level 2 or 3, you're at half mana, wasted the two abilities worth anything, and can now only helplessly pat the enemy ADC while they completely ignore you.

The combo is cool, and I'm okay with it, but too many people (even Riot I might argue) think it's the end all be all thing to do as Alistar. There's a little too much emphasis on it, and it's hurting the rest of his abilities.

KING OF MASKS3/30/2016, 8:51:52 PM3 votes

How dare you question the arbitrary Alistar nerf ritual. Rito, remove this vagrant and his heretical filth at once.

YossarianSensei3/31/2016, 8:14:42 AM2 votes

The 'problem' is that his ult allows him to actually tank into late game instead of getting evaporated like most other melees.

Valexfor3/30/2016, 2:06:15 PM2 votes

I think that, as things are now, they could actually just make his passive, q and w scale off of ad while leaving the ap scaling on the e. I mean: the only reason the cow can't scale off of ad is because he would be able to build both tank AND damage meaning ad scalings would make him op but, right now, with his actual scalings even if he were to scale off of ad he would be just an average tank with a strong initiation, good damage and good sustain (like every tank in the game), also woul finally allow him to top efficiently, making alistar ad top a solid pick and not a cheese troll pick...

Mickey Donnerudo3/30/2016, 4:28:44 PM2 votes

You gotta admit, W+AA was pretty broken. Rush sheen, all of a sudden for less than 100 mana you could deal ~100+100*2 = 300 damage with no retaliation AND deny farm/exp.

Psi213/30/2016, 5:09:10 PM2 votes

Alistar like Nautilus and other tanks are just doing too much damage for being tanks. And like Nautilus he is getting changed. I just can't see how players aren't see this... They are suppose to be tanks.

Dingding1233/30/2016, 10:57:27 PM2 votes

Alistar needs a rework before Taric. Honestly.

So Taric never seems like he's doing much. He's an aura-bot with a stun. What crime is that? Alistar can become nigh unkillable and has a near-instant (instant (or even further ranged) with Flash) ranged AoE knockup. Tell me Taric isn't more healthy with a straight face.

CrazedPorcupine3/30/2016, 10:59:07 PM2 votes

You could gut rework his R and E, and remove all damage from his Q and W, and Alistar would STILL be considered Top tier support, simply because of his CC.

Mastery 7 Shaco3/31/2016, 12:16:20 AM2 votes

Alistar got a buff in PBE. His passive does 745.08 damage with only 41 ability power. At 1144 ability power, it does 20669.4 damage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkH4mui4Wh4