Boards›Gameplay

The reason why the Leblanc nerfs to her W are a bad thing and a bad choice for gameplay

Deceiving Death·6/13/2015, 5:17:09 PM·5 votes·1,515 views

as a quick tangent i work in the game industry and have for 6+ years so this doesn't come from just some random guy on the internet, i do have experience in this area.

now i've been a Leblanc main since i really started playing this game in season 2. i played in beta but i didn't pick the game up until i discovered Leblanc way later. At the time she was considered a terrible champion to play but the reason why i played her and the reason why so many did is because her kit was fun! this had to go with the feel of the champs design. that feel didn't revolve around the power of the champion. i didn't care about winning as much as i did having fun. if i wanted to win there were better champions at the time to learn but her kit was so fun i wanted to master it. to put it in simple terms when it comes to balancing this there are two things to really balance:

**1. ** the numbers in which controls the players movements, speed of the spells, and the rate at which they travel. this is what most people would consider "feel" of the champion. these numbers are crucial because even without applying any damage they should feel powerful and fun to use even if no other champion is around. when values for these numbers are found they should almost never be changed. even slightly too fast or too slow can ruin an ability.

for instance, the first super mario game for nintendo was one of many platformers at the time but the reason it succeeded where others failed is the ingenious design and number tweaking behind the joy of movement controls that made it feel fun.

2. Damage, and cooldowns, these are the numbers that do need to be tweaked constantly. the best balancing comes from the controlling these two numbers. while the numbers for feel really don't room for how much you can take away or give these numbers are extremely malleable. these will most likely determine the champions viability as a pick but will not completely deter people.

now this is incredibly simplified but you get the gist.

so the problem with Leblanc's changes to her W are similar to what i see in Riven's windslash. it no longer feels powerful and looks as impressive as it used to be. i'd much rather the damage be nerfed on these abilities than having the speed at which they move be nerfed. when you nerf speed at which abilities move you're taking away the fast paced fun. damage comes regardless and people have been playing champions that have been considered not viable even when the damage is nerfed. for instance Diana is seeing more play now but even after she was nerfed i still saw some good Diana mains in ranked because her kit still felt good. unfortunately for Leblanc her kit now feels clunky and slow as most people have found out. those i knew who main her don't anymore because it's not just that's she's not viable, she's also not fun to play. champions that are not fun to play and clunky rarely ever see play even in norms which is why the older champs are usually forgotten. a good example are the changes to sion. it's not just that he seems stronger now it's that his kit is fun to play and feels powerful. i just don't want Riot to take away the "feel" of the game because it's what always separated itself from Dota, HoTS, and other mobas in my opinion and it's what has made it so huge. now league isn't perfect and there are so many ways to improve the feel of the game all around including on Leblanc (as fun as she was to play she still wasn't perfect either) but we shouldn't be taking away from it.

this has been sort of a slow trend that i've seen the Riot design team do for league and honestly because of it after this i won't be supporting League anymore. i might quick hit diamond before i quit because it was always a goal but after that i plan on quitting and i for sure won't be spending money with them any longer. the one champion that made me fall in love with this game is no longer fun to play and it has nothing to do with her damage or viability. i've played her past all her nerfs, her buffs, and everything in between. regardless if she was a good pick in the meta or not. i know i'm just one customer and i'm sure i'm going to see a lot of "QQ you just played an op champ" type posts or "just play someone else" but that's not the case and although i've played all the other champs i truly loved Leblanc's fun and playful design. it's one of those things i think riot should realize and in hopes they don't continue down this path of what they consider is balanced gameplay. instead look at fixing the champs and spells that are clunky and nerfing or buffing the damage output to make it match how it feels instead. at least that's what i would do.

34 Comments

ìnsane6/13/2015, 7:00:11 PM6 votes

@drnova leblanc was actually considered a p bad/troll pick for alot of season 3 (even season 2?) ...which was understandable since pre nerf kass was literally lb 2.0 back then

Bern6/13/2015, 7:34:45 PM4 votes

Honestly, what he's saying makes a lot of sense from a simple design perspective. LeBlanc w -looks- slow and weak now. It's not necessarily that much worse off than it was, but the change is just aesthetically bad. It hurts the overall feel and responsiveness of the champion. I'd also agree on the same point with Wind Slash (it feels a lot less CRAZY ANIME SWORD BEAM now than it used to, and I feel that's a bad thing aesthetically as well).

Like, nerfing w may or may not have been good for game balance; that's honestly aside the point for what he's saying. He's saying that, in terms of making LeBlanc a fun and responsive champion for her player, nerfing w's speed was the wrong way to go. And I think that's a fairly compelling argument.

DrNova6/13/2015, 5:28:30 PM3 votes

First of all I call BS on your "6 years in the game industry", but w/e.

Second I dont recall LeBlanc ever being considered "terrible"

Third, the slight tweak to W didnt make her feel clunky. Its arguably her least used skill anyways. This isnt even opinion, you are just completely wrong in basically this entire post.

Dark Nephthys6/13/2015, 7:18:19 PM2 votes

I'll go through a lot of points you said...

"as a quick tangent i work in the game industry and have for 6+ years so this doesn't come from just some random guy on the internet, i do have experience in this area."

That seems little odd to be adding in here to try to justify your opinion. They're a lot of different style/genre of games and just because you were in the game industry that doesn't mean you should have your opinion just instantly become more valuable. I use to work on servers for this old mmo for quite a few years, but that doesn't mean I feel that my opinion or "idea" of balance is any more right then others.

"now i've been a Leblanc main since i really started playing this game in season 2"

I know it's important to add this so that people would think you know what you're talking about since you're a Leblanc main (or was?). However, at the other side..people will now think this would be a QQ thread about the nerfs "gutting" her and didn't want the changes to go through.

"the numbers in which controls the players movements, speed of the spells, and the rate at which they travel. this is what most people would consider "feel" of the champion. these numbers are crucial because even without applying any damage they should feel powerful and fun to use even if no other champion is around. when values for these numbers are found they should almost never be changed. even slightly too fast or too slow can ruin an ability."

While it might of been fun to you, it becomes extremely annoying and almost un-counterable for the other people and that is why the changes went through. Not much you can do against the Leblanc when she just Q's you and then dashes on you dealing over half your HP and then teleports back before you can try to counter. Basically...if you're in 600 range of her, she will instantly do half your health without much chance to fight back.

"it no longer feels powerful and looks as impressive as it used to be"

Not all champions need to be flashy and look impressive. A lot of champions are actually basic and that's just how they're kit works.

"those i knew who main her don't anymore because it's not just that's she's not viable, she's also not fun to play"

Then to me that tells me that they're are not "mains" I'll still play my main champions no matter how bad they get nerfed or reworked or whatever in the future, because if I mained them then I did so due to liking the way they play, identity of them, or the challenge of them etc. Also saying that she became not fun to play makes me laugh. So now she can't dash extremely fast and safely deal un-fair trades without retaliation and she basically became slightly harder to play and now shes un-fun? It's almost like you're saying that because this champion isn't stomping as hard as she use to and now she's boring.

"unfortunately for Leblanc her kit now feels clunky and slow as most people have found out. those i knew who main her don't anymore because it's not just that's she's not viable, she's also not fun to play. champions that are not fun to play and clunky rarely ever see play even in norms which is why the older champs are usually forgotten"

So you say Leblanc now feels clunky and not fun to play, and then say that champions that are not fun to play and clunky are rarely seen and saying that is why older champions are usually forgotten. To me that sounds like you are now trying to compare Leblanc to the older champions. Yea...because older champions have access to that crazy mobility, huge amount of burst, being an assassin with at least some form of CC? Please don't think about comparing Leblancs kit to the older champions...I main Anivia, and I also generally play other older champions a lot like Galio and a few others. Those champions are super immobile with insane mana cost, which is nothing to the level of mobility and moderate mana cost of Leblanc.

"after this i won't be supporting League anymore. i might quick hit diamond before i quit because it was always a goal but after that i plan on quitting and i for sure won't be spending money with them any longer"

So because you're main finally got the nerf that she needed for a long time, you are going to quit because of it. She has been needing nerfs for a while and even Riot had said before that Leblanc was strong and that they're going to tone her down. When your main gets nerfed, you should just try to adjust and learn from a way to make her still strong with your knowledge of the champion and experience with her and the match ups. Quitting just because your main gets nerfed is a bit sad imo. I wouldn't quit over my main getting nerfed, I would just try to find out how strong they are or find a better build/set-up with them if they don't work with my current build etc.

AndroidYumi6/14/2015, 1:27:24 AM1 votes

This could use some more upvotes as a LeBlanc main myself I really feel you on this. Nerfs like these seem to be recurring theme and I don't like that >.< (And by nerfs like these I mean changes that make champions feel strange to play rather then addressing the actual problems)

Bears Dont Care6/14/2015, 1:33:33 AM1 votes

I do agree on this actually. My main concern though, is primarily the fact they nerfed her E's width. Hopefully they won't touch her damage, it is the only thing making her viable. She has no utility to speak off and no survivability.

WalkingInACircle6/14/2015, 2:44:29 AM1 votes

TL;DR: "The problem with these nerfs is that they succeed at nerfing Leblanc."

Mafia LeBlanc6/14/2015, 6:07:00 AM1 votes

I've been a LeBlanc main ever since they remade Evelynn, my first main, and I've stuck with her through her short 'omg lb op' when Reginald mained her, then she became terrible again once everyone remembered all her weaknesses; she's only viable as a glass cannon, she can't push or take objectives, she has only single target abilities, she is supremely squishy, and she is hard countered by Banshee Veil on the adc.

I agree that she didn't need the nerf because she's really not that strong of a champion, and this was solely to cater to whiners, but people cry and cry about her since she's being used at the pro level, even though her winrate is subpar.

The nerf and meta shift will take her off perma ban status again, and she'll be considered terrible again until the pros inevitably spam her once more. It's a shame because she really is one of, if not the most fun champion in this game because of her crazy mobility and high speed and energy, and this w nerf really took from her identity.

Abyssphere6/13/2015, 8:51:32 PM1 votes

Unfortunately Riot were in a bit of a catch 22 here (and with Wind Slash also, excellent comparison) where making it slower make it feel soooo much worse for the person using it (missile speed reductions are legitimately the worst) but at the same time it really does open an avenue of counterplay and that's what they were looking at with these changes. Wind Slash in particularly had its missile speed absolutely gutted and while a similar effect on Riven's balance could have been made by just reducing its damage (see also: Distortion), it feels a lot better for people playing against her to actually have a change of outrunning it now. I've not played LB since the W change came through but my experience with Riven is that when playing her it feels really weird for Wind Slash to move that slow but when playing against her it really feels like an excellent change to have a chance, even if small, of avoiding it.

I don't really know what else they could have done. People deserve a chance to dodge things and Distortion was very difficult to avoid before this change. LeBlanc is a particularly strange example because her win rate is traditionally kind of awful and that makes it difficult to argue that she's actually too strong. They could have reduced her damage but that'd essentially be saying "Sorry, LeBlanc isn't allowed to be viable because whenever she is, people go crazy". With the missile speed reduction they're trying to make it so that she's allowed to be good without feeling awful to play against. It's a meaningful way to increase counterplay against a champion, it's just a huge pity that it feels bad for the person who's using that champion. I really hope you can get used to her dash's reduced speed, it'd be a huge pity to lose a player because of something like this.

Penguin Eclipse6/13/2015, 9:42:38 PM1 votes

I'm surprised you are this upset about the changes. I personally have no problem with the change. It still feels plenty fast. It has made no impact on my ability to kill someone. I'm actually surprised this is all they did.

I personally am against damage nerfs at all costs.

IMKR6/13/2015, 10:46:53 PM1 votes

Leblanc got fucked. so much for riot saying "she is in a good place right now" before they nerfed her ult.

so much for assassins being in a crappy position. they are just getting more crappy now.

i know for a fact riot wont be reverting LB anytime soon. proof? zed..... he got his W speed nerfed, his AA nerfed, his ult is clunky as shit now as well.

guess riot wants more easyhoon gameplay going on, with boring ziggs, or azir, and farmfest up till 60 min whole point im not top main or adc main is due to the fact i HATE farmfesting up with no action for 20 min